A general address on Kerbal gender

[Accelerando]

I've witnessed an annoying issue every time I read through threads on Kerbal gender. It isn't just the angry posts, although that's part of it. What's most annoying is the notion presumed by many that gender is meaningless or unimportant to discussions of the Kerbal characters and their species.

I patiently await comments to the effect of "here we go," but I believe I have something different to offer.

Now, to be sure: whether genders are added or not, one should keep in mind that the clothes we generally consider "gendered" are not necessarily going to be as much in the eyes of an alien speices.

On the other hand, in relating KSP to a wider human audience (including women who most certainly play this game and roam these forums) it would go a long way toward demonstrating that this game is not meant to be a "boy's club" to do more than simply plug one's ears and pretend that because the game doesn't make explicit reference to Kerbal gender they are not, in fact, gendered. Gender, whether it is absent or present, is significant: it makes up part of the atmosphere of the game, which is at least as crucial to one's enjoyment of the game as the mechanics and story themselfes.

To make an analogy, a minimalistic graphics set like the Code Page 437 employed by Dwarf Fortress and various other roguelikes contribute to the atmosphere of the game; that you have to translate text into visual objects in your head makes the game a fundamentally different experience from a game with 3D graphics, just as much as the visual polish we've seen in KSP of late has changed it from the releases of old. The praise heaped upon Nova and Claira as well as B9 for their contributions to the "Kerbal aesthetic" or at least continuations of it are certainly a testament to its effect upon peoples' time with the game.

So gender is certainly a matter, and if the consistent recurrance of these threads and the often hostile-approaching-violent reactions at least some espouse in them are any indication, it is a matter certainly worth addressing. And I think it is undeniable that the broad majority of KSP players identify them as male, or at least with masculine descriptors, which really isn't very different in the the long view. Either way you cut it, excluding female bodies and feminine aesthetics and pronouns undermines the importance of the "female" while bolstering the male: contrary to popular belief, the pronoun "he" nor the concept of man are not, nor have they ever been, genderless, if only for the fact that few seem so eager to use "she" or women as genderless constructs.

This of course does not apply if you are as willing to address Kerbals as female as you are to address them as male, but is that really the case? That is not an accusation, nor is it an order; it is just a question. If you do indeed wish to address Kerbals with impartiality to either gender, then it is necessary to be at least willing to speak of them in feminine terms as much as masculine.

Personally, I don't mind if Kerbals have an explicit gender or not. However, I feel it is definitely necessary, if this game wishes to purport itself as more than a boy's club, for female bodies as well as what society tends to consider feminine aesthetics to be implemented in KSP. That doesn't equate to Hartman hips and lipstick babes, for those concerned. And whatever happens, players should at least own up to the fact that gender plays a role in this game. Even if you earnestly consider them genderless (I do) it does not mean that the issue is "meaningless" when discussing them.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Accelerando

[GusTurbo]

Thank you for this post. I think a lot of people say it's unimportant because it doesn't affect gameplay, but a lot of the charm of this game comes from aesthetic details, like the labels in the Hitchhiker capsule.

[Guest]

I endorse this service/product. Really. Great post.

[suzin.felipe]

Good post. Female Kerbals are necessary and ignoring 50% of the population is just bad in any way you can think of.

[Temstar]

I can see why people argue that gender shouldn't be implemented in the game since it's nothing but a visual thing and the development time could be better spent elsewhere. With the game in the current state that is true, having female kerbonauts bring about as much to the game as having males but with random haircuts.

But why does that have to be the case? Obviously KSP is suppose to draw a lot of analogues from our own space programs, what with one capsule looking like the Mercury capsule, one that looks like Apollo and so on. So does having female astronauts make any difference here on Earth?

Yes of course it does! Propaganda value of Vostok 6 aside, there are some good scientific reasons to put woman in space even if it's just to figure out what would happen to them. Imagine if Valentina Tereshkova died upon MECO because by some freak biological reason only human males could survive in 0G and not females? I imagine if that were the case the space program would be radically different now with at the minimum much more focus on artificial gravity research.

When Soviet managed to send a woman up in Vostok 6 it was very much considered another great achievement and another one of the "first" in the space race. Having woman in space is a right proper engineering challenge - you wouldn't be able to put one in an Apollo capsule and send her to the moon for one, since Apollo pee pouch only works with males. To be able to send up females in the shuttle or ISS actually involves engineering in getting the vehicle be able to support both gender. Since KSP is meant to be an analogy of Earth's space programs this issue should be actually a factor in the game. There's plenty of ways we could do this. For example maybe you had to do research (via normal method or say to send up a special one off capsule) to unlock "gender neutral" capability for your capsules, and only then will you be able to hire female kerbonauts. Hell sending female kerbonauts up alone should have scientific value.

[lajoswinkler]

Testing for sex-neutral capsules? I understand the real world issue, but that seems like a lot of complications and, quite frankly, a bit derogatory for a game. I don't see the need for testing such stuff because KSP is a game, and implementing such stuff seems to show female sex as test subjects akin to monkeys in a can. It's overly complicated, over the top thing, makeshift issue which asks for trouble.

I say keep it simple. If sexual dimorphism is something planned for future updates, let it just be a cosmetic issue. "Poof, now we have females, move along."

Look, most people here are opposed to locking the sending of a Kerbal to space if the user didn't prove he's capable of doing a suborbital flight. That would be a great point for unlocking other stuff in the game. Sex-testing equipment is just too much.

Edited September 18, 2013 by lajoswinkler

[suzin.felipe]

Females kerbals should be in this game because women are 50% of our population here on Earth. Acknowledging the existence of females should not even to open for debate, they should have been in the game from the beginning.

The fact that was not, just shows that Squad is really an indie company with 0 experience in making games. The good think is that as all companies that do something, they will mature, realize their mistake and fix it at some point.

Have to have faith on people, I have on Squad.

[Temstar]

Females kerbals should be in this game because women are 50% of our population here on Earth. Acknowledging the existence of females should not even to open for debate, they should have been in the game from the beginning.

Now now, NASA didn't sent up a female until the shuttle era, and since KSP imitates NASA closer than the soviet space program maybe it's just a case of "didn't bother until..." Harvester said that the capability and parts in KSP tends to follow the real life development in space programs, hence why we had progressions like introduction of docking. If Squad introduces female in the future you could just as easily reason that they're copying NASA's progression.

[pxi]

I completely, wholeheartedly agree with the OP.

[GusTurbo]

Testing for sex-neutral capsules? I understand the real world issue, but that seems like a lot of complications and, quite frankly, a bit derogatory for a game. I don't see the need for testing such stuff because KSP is a game, and implementing such stuff seems to show female sex as test subjects akin to monkeys in a can. It's overly complicated, over the top thing, makeshift issue which asks for trouble.

I say keep it simple. If sexual dimorphism is something planned for future updates, let it just be a cosmetic issue. "Poof, now we have females, move along."

Look, most people here are opposed to locking the sending of a Kerbal to space if the user didn't prove he's capable of doing a suborbital flight. That would be a great point for unlocking other stuff in the game. Sex-testing equipment is just too much.

I agree -- it really should just be a visual thing. One of the great things about KSP is that it doesn't have to mirror the real world. Female Kerbals should be more of an avatar, rather than a differently-functional part of a craft.

[Tw1]

There's plenty of ways we could do this. For example maybe you had to do research (via normal method or say to send up a special one off capsule) to unlock "gender neutral" capability for your capsules, and only then will you be able to hire female kerbonauts. Hell sending female kerbonauts up alone should have scientific value.

That could be an interesting mechanism. As long as it is well implemented, and not too hard to unlock. It should be something you can test/develop alongside capsules for male kerbals, if they go with it.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Tw1

[suzin.felipe]

It would be a good excuse Temstar, but a poor one.

We are in 2013 last I checked, pretty different from the 60's in terms of women rights and participation in our society. We don't need to cover Squad on their mistake, as I said, they will realize and correct that at some point.

It is just a minor display of how incompetent game companies are in general when dealing with gender. Sexism is still rampant in the game industry and gamers in general. If you don't believe me, a quick visit to r/gaming on reddit would prove my case. Or just go to the tread with a pool on gender here in GD if you feel like it.

Fact is, there is no excuse for not having females on the game, devs promised to bring them on in the future.

[stupid_chris]

It would be a good excuse Temstar, but a poor one.

We are in 2013 last I checked, pretty different from the 60's in terms of women rights and participation in our society. We don't need to cover Squad on their mistake, as I said, they will realize and correct that at some point.

It is just a minor display of how incompetent game companies are in general when dealing with gender. Sexism is still rampant in the game industry and gamers in general. If you don't believe me, a quick visit to r/gaming on reddit would prove my case. Or just go to the tread with a pool on gender here in GD if you feel like it.

Fact is, there is no excuse for not having females on the game, devs promised to bring them on in the future.

I really don't think the devs didn't originally include females into the game because they just didn't want them. The Kerbals have been barely touched at all ever since they 0.7, and back then the project was never meant to take this much amplitude. The dev team is really small. For now, it consists of three coders, two part time content designers, one animator/artist and two webdevs. Really, there were probably other priorities than making female Kerbals when they originally made them, and the priorities have been on other stuff ever since. Ultimately, the choice to add other genders is up to the devs themselves, and when to do it is also up to them. The game is still in early alpha, literally everything is subject to change before it can be considered finished. I wouldn't call out on the devs saying it's an error. If it's anything, it's a lack of resources.

[Accelerando]

Temstar, Kerbals simply "not caring" is not really a step up from outright barring women from entry to the space program. Explicit or not, it is still putting women into the cupboard, so to speak: as suzin pointed out, it rings more of an excuse in the context of a game that supposedly seeks to be a fun space exploration experience for its consumers rather than a space exploration game laden with tones of exclusivism.

[lajoswinkler]

Well it's true the gaming industry is dripping with sexism.

We have several approaches:

a) erasing all genders in the game - a militant approach that would really cripple the game; no more Jeb, Bill and Bob, I don't like it

adding functional second sex and therefore gender - unnecessary in my opinion and direct path to sexism because of unequality; it would burst into sexist flames subjected to the sexist petrol of the gaming community

c) adding cosmetic, avatar second sex therefore gender - it would calm lots of people, lol

d) not doing anything - it would be a good idea if Kerbals didn't appear male to lots of people

e) adding more than one sex and making Kerbals polysexual species - too much complication because of the neccessity to invent a gender for the rest of the sexes

I'm torn between c) and d) but only because I don't think of Kerbals as males but that's just my bias.

We could always say that Kerbals are an asexual species with a male resembling gender, but that would be kind of trolling.

[suzin.felipe]

Hi stupid_chris,

I do understand the realities of Squad development, but the evidence that this was a mistake is the amount of treads locked in this forum discussing over and over again something as simple as having females in the game.

The whole problem could have been solved with the name generator including female names and a promise that female models would come in the future. No much resources needed for that.

When called out on that they took the position that kerbals were asexual. They might have though it was funny at the time, but that was just inexperience when dealing with a big group of consumers. Sapphire post in this forum are a good example of what should have been the default position from the company from the start.

They will learn eventually. It's what mature adult people do after all.

[Accelerando]

Chris, a lack of resources hardly explains their unwillingness to add one more character to the game. We already wait months for updates bringing along features far more extensive than one character model, which, I might add, would clearly add something to the game for the significant number of users (and thus, source of profit) for whom this is important; and I might add that Dan spends his time on more than a few projects that are simply posted for display (ie Kerbal holidays, etc). While this does not take game implemetation into account, the release of the Kerbalizer and various other projects hinting at Kebal customizability at least indicates that they are willing to undertake projects that will add customizability to Kerbals themselves, however it does or does not affect game mechanics.

[stupid_chris]

Threads about this have been locked either because they have derailed into rudeness and personal attacks, or because they were suggesting to add to the game, which is an automatic lock for things on the What not to suggest list and things that have been suggested too often (like multiplayer). As you can see, there are two threads on the general forum about them at this moment and both are perfectly alive, and they will remain this way if the conversation remains polite.

I'll let you know that Kerbal names more often than anything can't really be associated to genders. I've had a Jenna Kerman as well as an Sandy Kerman. The name generating tool has also not been touched ever since the first public release, and Squad probably has other priorities than modifying it, whatever their priorities are. As for the promise of a female model, it would be as asking for promises of features: it won't happen, stuff comes and go at Squad's good will, promising stuff would be a bad move. Remember that the project was never meant to attract such a crowd, it was just a game the original devs did as friends together and it turned out to catch much more attention than they ever expected. They didn't know they would even have something you can call a consumer base.

[lajoswinkler]

I agree - nonfunctional, avatar-based female Kerbal would be extremely easy to develop and would bring in more cash. It would be easier to develop it than developing Kerbalizer.

[stupid_chris]

The only people aware of the devs priorities are the devs themselves, no one can make their decisions for them.

Edit: eh, this makes for a kind of bland statement alone. What I mean is that no one knows the devs priorities, but what I'm saying is that it's most likely not on that and they are putting every effort they have to complete the updates as fast as possible with the content they want. And do not misguide yourself, DanRosas does make a lot of off-game content, but this is pretty much small side-projects unless I'm mistaken.

Edited September 18, 2013 by stupid_chris

[leax256]

I quote myself on the topic, namely the dev's Offical statment

in my opinion I think that was just something to help lessen the arguments and female kerbals are an unanounced planned feature. Though I wouldn't expect to see them added anytime till the game is out of alpha.

look at the arguments started about warpdrives when it was mentioned as an idea.

[Accelerando]

I am not asking Squad to change what has been done in the past, nor am I criticising them for allowing a personal project to grow beyond its original bounds. What I am trying to convey is that, whatever their original intentions, they now have a paid userbase to answer to, and a potential userbase out there in those who see KSP advertised on the front page of the Steam store, or wherever else it is displayed with the intention of swaying wallets; and even if they didn't, if they truly wish to create a space exploration experience that satisfies most of their potential buyers, then recurring gender threads are as good an indicator as any that there is a real desire for femininity of one form or another to be implemented in the game. Whether or not they promise to implement that is, of course, up to them, but that is not the point I am addressing.

[suzin.felipe]

Hi Chris,

I do understand your position, I'm not calling out or demanding anything from the devs. Their game, their rules, also I fell privileged that I can play with their creation.

Just pointing out what we agree on, their inexperience and "indieness" brought them an unexpected success, but also problems.

As much as they need to learn how to deal with the success, they will also have to learn how to deal with their failures, and not including females was a failure. Not dealing with it properly when they were call out on it was another.

Not a programmer, have no idea of how much work would be to implement females, but a simple hint of the shape of things to come in that area would be nice.

[Zeroignite]

OP, your original post is rather excellent. I try to use female pronouns for my Kerbonauts whenever possible, but it just doesn't work so well for most of the generated names.

EDIT: Sapphire, your concept art is perfect. It's not overdone or exaggerated and makes sense in space, but does gives a sense that not every kerbal is a guy.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Zeroignite

[Comrade Jenkens]

Personally I believe that the current kerbals are male. Their names are most often clearly male and their hairline is in a male shape.

I think that just adding a second hairstyle and a few more names would be enough to show females in the game.

That being said i'm pretty sure that there is more important things for the devs to work on atm.