A general address on Kerbal gender

[John FX]

That's not a Kerbal.

You seem to be implying that kerbals should not follow human rules for features as they are not human? Isn`t that sort of the point, that humans have features not represented in KSP and this should change?

I`m confused as to your stance now. Are you pro making kerbals more like humans or not?

[regex]

You seem to be implying that kerbals should not follow human rules for features as they are not human? Isn`t that sort of the point, that humans have features not represented in KSP and this should change?

You asked that I:

Imagine this woman with a green face and a short astronauts haircut...

and I won't, because that woman is missing some clearly Kerbal traits. Green skin and a haircut do not a Kerbal make.

[John FX]

You asked that I:

I didn`t ask only you. Don`t put yourself forward as representative for all. I was replying to someone else who said a widows peak was a male characteristic.

[Tw1]

I didn`t ask only you. Don`t put yourself forward as representative for all. I was replying to someone else who said a widows peak was a male characteristic.

Ah. Well, that wasn't exactly clear.

[John FX]

Ah. Well, that wasn't exactly clear.

It should have been clear that I was not explicitly only asking regex...

[regex]

I didn`t ask only you. Don`t put yourself forward as representative for all. I was replying to someone else who said a widows peak was a male characteristic.

You explicitly addressed me later when I gave you my own answer/opinion, so I replied stating my own criteria. Is there a rule about representing oneself in a public forum? Don't assume that all posts are made to represent multiple people.

[sanoj688]

@OP your assumption that the lack of gender/females makes KSP a "boys club " is sexist. Think about it, I rest my case.

[John FX]

You explicitly addressed me later when I gave you my own answer/opinion, so I replied stating my own criteria. Is there a rule about representing oneself in a public forum? Don't assume that all posts are made to represent multiple people.

Look, in a thread *about* comparing kerbals to humans you stated quite curtly that it was not a kerbal and then rudely I thought that you would not do that in an attempt it seems to hijack my point and have been quite confrontational since and I feel you are threadjacking a discussion about avatars and making it personal and antagonistic..

please stop.

[kujuman]

Currently I have Ensel, Bartory, and Kendon Kerman roving up a hill on Minmus. I have no idea what sex any of them are. I am totally fine with this situation.

In a future update, if I have Ensel, Bartory, and Kendon Kerman roving up a hill, and two are modeled as being females, I have an idea as to what sex they are. I am totally fine with this situation.

In a future update, if I have Bill, Bob, and Jeb roving up a hill, and two are modeled as being females, I take issue.

---

I think if we get female kerbals, then there shouldn't be an attempt to match the name generator's results to what sex they are; the differences between male and female names is different per culture. And at least for Ensel, Bartory, and Kendon, I could see those names being either/or.

---

I do think there is some risk involved with implementing "male" and "female" distinctions. It's not implausible that some players will play differently with different types of kerbals. While alone this isn't a problem, it becomes more of a problem if they make mission reports or whatever for public consumption. "I let Ensel drive because everyone knows Bartory can't park to save her life". "I let Bartory fly the landing because Ensel likes to push his rocket too far". With the astronaut training, it's possible for people to only pick one sex of kerbal vs the other. These are just things I think are important to keep in mind.

[DChurchill]

This is a tempest in a teacup. I honestly couldn't care less what gender the kerbals are. Who ever is next in line in the astronaut complex gets the slot. The name only matters to me if it's funny, not whether it sounds masculine or feminine. If it matters so much, surely someone that cares should make a mod that either makes kerbals more gender neutral or introduces female kerbals. Let Squad concentrate on gameplay.

[lincourtl]

+10,000 points! I understand Squad's reasoning on this topic (i.e. Kerbals are asexual) but I completely agree with you that it makes a huge impact to the meat-based lifeforms who actually play the game. Having only seemingly male-gendered game characters excludes half the potential audience. IMHO, Squad is being very myopic on this point. There is another option as well -- write it into the official story similarly to how Terry Pratchett handled dwarves in the Discworld universe. Continue to assert that Kerbals are asexual, but some Kerbals choose to dress and groom themselves differently. No big explanation needed, no radical altering of Squad's original character designs. Just a brief retconning will do.

[Accelerando]

Denying feminine characteristics entry to the game on the grounds that some might abuse them is not a step forward from relegating them to the kitchen. Either one affords what is at least generally considered the female zero agency in the matter - having portrayals out there that sexist people will have to deal with, even if they do end up abused, is a step closer to recognizing feminine as the equal of the masculine, than to have them shunted offscreen for whatever reason. In the former case, the user must own up to the fact that women exist, or at least can be a part of, their space program for whatever reason. In the latter, the user is not even provoked about the matter.

[John FX]

This is a tempest in a teacup. I honestly couldn't care less what gender the kerbals are. Who ever is next in line in the astronaut complex gets the slot. The name only matters to me if it's funny, not whether it sounds masculine or feminine. If it matters so much, surely someone that cares should make a mod that either makes kerbals more gender neutral or introduces female kerbals. Let Squad concentrate on gameplay.

So much this. Recently my SO had a go at me for not correcting her uncle when he asked my to program his TV (he is 81) and reminding him that women can program a TV too. I had to remind her that to properly have gender equality you don`t get the man to do it for you...

My favourite kerbal is doodbin. Not because he is a guy but because he is a dude, dude. Which is sweet. (that and the zero stupidity which is deliciously ironic)

I really don`t want whoever designed these to get near my kerbals...

These are my favourite green aliens. This is a male

And this is a female.

As you can see her antenna curl in a very female and sexy manner and the has the mating port on her chest which marks her out as very obviously an egg producer.

[Mr Shifty]

Thanks for this very thoughtful thread. I'm reminded of an IMAX film I saw recently about the Apollo landings with Tom Hanks narrating. There was a section were the video was showing the faces of the Apollo astronauts and Hanks was intoning something like: "It is notable that the names of these moon walkers are so ordinary: Neil, Jim, Dave, and that their faces could be the faces of any of us..." I goggled that someone would make such a statement in the 2000's. Every face up on the screen was a white male face. Every name was an Anlgo-normative name. There was definitely no Sunita Williams or Kalpana Chawla or Stephanie Wilson there. The faces and names of the astronauts are important, and one subtle and darker message of Apollo was that white men did this; particularly and painfully relevant in a decade where an enormous mass of people stood up peacefully to dogs and jail and firehoses and bombs to demand recognition as equals. The faces and names of the Kerbals are significant. The arguments that they're aliens are handwaving arguments; the fact is that the Kerbals are a human creations and stand as avatars of human players. Many of them have specifically (Anglo) culturally male names and they all 'look' male.

Karen Nyberg is the only US astronaut in space right now. I can show my 6 y/o daughter Dr. Nyberg's streaming videos from the ISS, and there's no barrier to her imagining herself up there. I'd hope KSP, which is a wonderful tool to spark the imagination and stir creativity, could offer her the same opportunity.

[Comrade Jenkens]

I completely despise whoever designs female characters to look like that. Its downright degrading. When the male characters are dressed in just as little its not so bad, but in most they give the males practical gear and the females don't get much.

I doubt that it will be an issue with KSP though, whether or not they add female kerbalnauts.

[John FX]

I completely despise whoever designs female characters to look like that. Its downright degrading. When the male characters are dressed in just as little its not so bad, but in most they give the males practical gear and the females don't get much.

I doubt that it will be an issue with KSP though, whether or not they add female kerbalnauts.

Which is why I try to get people to define what changes they would look for in making a female kerbal. Most people just seem to want them more `girly` (although nobody has used that word yet) but don`t have a solid idea of what that would mean.

There are lots of design factors to influence the final design also. On a very basic point, are they mammals, reptiles or plants?

Reptiles - scales, no breasts, no lips, produces eggs

mammals - breasts, lips, live young

plants - bark/smooth skin, produces seeds/pods

each would produce a different kerbal.

[regex]

Which is why I try to get people to define what changes they would look for in making a female kerbal. Most people just seem to want them more `girly` (although nobody has used that word yet) but don`t have a solid idea of what that would mean.

There are a couple of pictures early in one of the other threads that look quite good without sexualizing them.

[Fiddlestyx]

[Awaras]

Either Kerbals have male and female genders, or the devs have allowed us to make drag queens in kerbalizer on purpose...

[Brotoro]

I've spoken before in favor of including female kerbal models in the game, and I support OPs position. It could help females identify with the game, and it wouldn't hurt anybody else. If it's just a matter of Squad not having resources to do it right now, then just add female kerbals to the official list of planned features and the discussion can go away.

[stupid_chris]

Alright guys

We have three very active threads about this now (POLL: Should SQUAD change the kerbal avatars for gender purposes., Poll, Do/Should Kerbal Genders exist?, and A general address on Kerbal gender) and they have caught our attention for a variety of reasons.

Let me preface this by saying that we very much appreciate constructive discussion. There's definitely a case to be made for either side here ("'genderless' is usually implicitly male", "'genderless' is just that: no gender").

But this debate is not about game mechanics or design decisions anymore. It's part of the long-going sexism debate. Don't get me wrong, I very much think that debate should be had. I do not, however, think that one should use a customisation option as a vessel for that debate.

Our Forum Rules prohibit ideological discussions for good reason. They inspire heated arguments, because the people involved are usually heavily invested in it.

With that said, I'm closing all but the original. It has been heard, but this takes a direction that just does not belong here. As for implementing a variety of Kerbal models (on that note, I think one might just want to wait with that until there are any customisation options implemented), I feel that that can be discussed without bringing gender debate into it.

This said, thread closed.