How to (or not to) SCIENCE!

[falofonos]

I work the hell out of science, and get only 10 points here or there, 30 points around the Mun only to not have it when I get home.

Squad... Some basic science rules... please! How do you keep from losing science!!!????

If you are transmitting the results, you are credited with the points the moment they are received on Kerbin. The summary from retrieving the craft only includes results which have not been transmitted.

You are only losing science in the sense that transmission losses mean you have to repeat the experiment and transmit the results repeatedly to get the same points as retrieving the experiment.

[camulus777]

you are either transmitting your data loosing some in the process or dumping it by accident. Lastly you may have your science modules on a part of your ship that gets left in space or destroyed. If you do science you have to return with those modules.

also don't keep using the science modules over and over before you have a chance to transmit or return with it or it will be lost.

[possum]

A quick summery of of science gathering if have found/ tested. This is not all inclusive due to some thing having not been discovered or fully tested at this time.

1. Crew reports:

No loss when transmitted.

Are biome dependent.

Only one crew report per biome can be stored.

2. Biomes:

Kerbin- Launch pad, coastal, desert, grassland, highland, water, polar/artic, atmospheric, LKO, HKO

Mun- HMO, LMO, highland, not sure what the others are.

Minmus- HMO, LMO, highland, possible lowland- have not tested.

Kerbal and all other celestial bodies- high orbit and low orbit

3. EVA:

EVA reports can be stored on the capsule, only one per biome.

Have to enter or be in contact with the capsule, i.e. grab the capsule while still outside, to store it.

Kerbals, even then hanging on to the capsule, can not transmit reports.

EVA reports are transmitted at a 50% loss.

Surface samples and be stored, on per biome.

Reports from a Kerbal on Kerbin can be recovered by recovering while EVA. This can be used to recover two reports and samples from one biome by storing one report and sample then collecting a second.

4. Transmitting data:

Multiple reports can be transmitted simultaneously with multiple antenna.

Transmitting the same experiment multiple time until all science is gained from one biome yields the same amount of science points as returning experiments or samples multiple times.

Clicking send data from the antenna will send all stored data.

5. Capsules/ probes:

Yield science points if recovered. Points are dependent on the last body visited.

Orbital and sub-orbital flight yield different points. Do not neglect sub-orbital flights.

Only one crew report, EVA report, and sample can be stored per biome.

6. Experiments

Old science parts yield science only one data log can be stored.

the Goo canister can store only one report.

Science Jr. can store only one report.

Reports are biome dependent.

Thermometer reports can not be logged in high orbits.

Resetting wll dump current data and i will be lost.

Hopefully this condensed list will help with your science gathering.

Edited October 19, 2013 by possum
update

[NephilimNexus]

#1, it should take MUCH MUCH MUCH less power to send data. I have attempted at least 20 sends from 10 missions, and about two have been successfully sent. This is ridiculous. Please fix.

It's not that use of power that irks me; rather is that batteries and solar panels are placed so far up the tech tree. You're basically stuck with the one-kerbal pod and it's one-shot power supply for far, far too long in the game. IMHO, they should move the basic, non-movable flatscreen solar panel to within the first or second tier at least, along with the smallest battery. Something to let us be able to get out more than one transmission before the battery dies.

Yes, yes, I know that running the engine can recharge your battery, but that takes precious fuel and has a habit of wrecking that perfect orbit we worked so hard to achieve.

[Themohawkninja]

What does the packet size, transmission interval, and throughput rate all mean exactly (and practically)?

[Picabu]

A quick summery of of science gathering if have found/ tested. This is not all inclusive due to some thing having not been discovered or fully tested at this time.

3. EVA:

EVA reports can be stored on the capsule, only one per biome.

Have to enter or be in contact with the capsule to store it.

Kerbals, even then hanging on to the capsule, can not transmit reports.

EVA reports are transmitted at a 50% loss.

Surface samples and be stored, on per biome.

Reports from a Kerbal on Kerbin can be recovered by recovering while EVA. This can be used to recover two reports and samples from one biome by storing one report and sample then collecting a second.

You can actually get close to your capsule with a kerbal, then right-click the capsule and you'll have the option to "store experiments" which will store your EVA report and sample without getting into the capsule.

4. Transmitting data:

Multiple reports can be transmitted simultaneously with multiple antenna.

Transmitting the same experiment multiple time until all science is gained from one biome yields the same amount of science points as returning experiments or samples multiple times.

I think you can "one-click-sent" all you data by right clicking your antenna (whichever) and choose "Transmit" - I have loads of data and only 2 basic batteries - and it drained me dry and stop transmission mid-stream - I think it was trying to send everything, but will have to check again...

[possum]

You can actually get close to your capsule with a kerbal, then right-click the capsule and you'll have the option to "store experiments" which will store your EVA report and sample without getting into the capsule.

Yes, you do not have to get in the capsule but I have only been able to store data while hanging on to the outside.

I think you can "one-click-sent" all you data by right clicking your antenna (whichever) and choose "Transmit" - I have loads of data and only 2 basic batteries - and it drained me dry and stop transmission mid-stream - I think it was trying to send everything, but will have to check again...

Clicking on send data on the antenna will send everything that is stored, both from the capsule and any experiments.

I will edit my previous post to include this. Thank you for the reminder.

[Ryder]

Thanks, Possum... a very helpful list.

[Devilstar]

I second the frustration with batteries with the stock and early modules. They should re-adjust so we start with maybe even a probe as well ( or only a probe ). NASA didn't send manned missions up first, why should Kerbals?

[Ryder]

I'm finding that solar panels do not work to transmit data "Not Enough Electric Charge", yet the resource says 10 of 10... does this mean I don't have enough to even start sending???

(2 panels + Stayputnik = 30 total charge)

Edit: 10 solar panels... still no luck

Edited October 19, 2013 by Ryder

[Eric S]

I'm finding that solar panels do not work to transmit data "Not Enough Electric Charge", yet the resource says 10 of 10... does this mean I don't have enough to even start sending???

(2 panels + Stayputnik = 30 total charge)

The way electricity works, it can't be used until it's stored in a battery. If the stayputnik itself doesn't have enough capacity to send a packet, then no number of solar panels will get you there.

[Wayfare]

Just tested this:

EVA reports and samples are not stored or lost when you board an external command seat - the Kerbal is still considered to be on EVA and can even make EVA reports and collect surface samples while in the seat. If the vessel to which the seat is attached has an antenna, any EVA reports and surface samples collected by the Kerbal will be transmitted when "transmit data" is selected.

Because pods can only store multiple EVA reports and surface samples if they are from different biomes, I've been using this feature to land on the edges of Mun craters, get reports and samples there, then send a rover our to get more samples and EVA reports from the next-door biome and bring them back to the lander. Neat!

Edited October 19, 2013 by Wayfare

[LikeAPineTree]

Not sure if anyone has said this, but if you install a mod that supports the tech tree, and the parts in the mod are in a node that you already unlocked, you can't get those just automatically, you gotta go back to that node, select it, and research each part individually in the side panel (it's free to research if you already have the node).

[TTurchan1]

Is that true in all cases or just in the case of a solar orbit? LIke, if I make a 10-goo-ball craft and did the experiment on the launch pad, would I get 10 times the science points for recovering it?

That does sound like a bug in any case. You should get the full science points for the first one and diminishing returns for the rest, just like if you had sent up separate craft.

I thought this was the case, but i strapped 200 or so 2HOT's to a capsule, had an action group set up, activated them all, kept the data, and recovered from the launchpad. It behaves the same as if you were to do it 200 seperate times, so bringing 10 goo balls to solar orbit won't benefit you. If you look at the tally at the end you can see that it doesn't actually effect the result.

[Superfluous J]

I thought this was the case, but i strapped 200 or so 2HOT's to a capsule, had an action group set up, activated them all, kept the data, and recovered from the launchpad. It behaves the same as if you were to do it 200 seperate times, so bringing 10 goo balls to solar orbit won't benefit you. If you look at the tally at the end you can see that it doesn't actually effect the result.

That's good, and that's what I was hoping for. So from what I can tell you always get half of the "left over" science when you return your data. So if you take 10 goo balls out and trigger them, they each say you get "10", what you acutally get is 10, then 5, then 2.5, then 1.25... etc 10 times.

[Gritmonger]

I'm actually wondering why a capsule is required at the lowest stage - Goddard did liquid fuel at a very small scale, sounding rockets, V-2, Sputnik - it was quite a while before more than dogs and chimps went into space. A really dumbed-down probe level (no reaction wheels and so-on) at a very small scale might be what you've got at low level, but allows you to do robotic missions early rather than after risking a bunch of your pilots.

Then again, I'm a Noob who still hasn't landed on a planet other than Kerbal or orbited another planet other than in the tutorial. I'm not a power user.

[John FX]

Makes sense to me, the moon landing was a culmination of many advancements, they had the equivalent of the Atlas, the mainsail, the 3 man pod, struts, batteries, decouplers and even a version of mechjeb. To get to the mun should require more tech. As people can get there using only the very initial parts, they should be nerfed so that it is not possible to even get into orbit with them, they would just fall apart if you put that many tanks and engines together...

I often think that it is too easy to just use a couple of initial parts and go pretty much anywhere. Make the first engine something like the basic solid booster and only give the player something adjustable after a couple of flights or getting above a set altitude.

[Superfluous J]

Any tech tree that doesn't allow an expert player to get into space will fail because new players don't want to play a rocket game with no rockets. I cannot think of a single combination of parts that can get you off of Kerbin but can not get an expert player to Mun.

[toomuchbrew]

It's not that use of power that irks me; rather is that batteries and solar panels are placed so far up the tech tree. You're basically stuck with the one-kerbal pod and it's one-shot power supply for far, far too long in the game. IMHO, they should move the basic, non-movable flatscreen solar panel to within the first or second tier at least, along with the smallest battery. Something to let us be able to get out more than one transmission before the battery dies.

Yes, yes, I know that running the engine can recharge your battery, but that takes precious fuel and has a habit of wrecking that perfect orbit we worked so hard to achieve.

I admit, at first, I thought the tech tree was counter-intuitive, but I found that it adds to the challenge. It is possible to get a ton of research points very early with just the initial tech. If you can get a ship into orbit with a full fuel tank left, you can get to the Mun or Minmus and back. You just won't be able to transmit any science. You shouldn't draw on the batteries as long as you don't use auxiliary reaction wheels on your rocket. You can put down close to 1000 or more points in one mission. Even if you baby step it, you should be able to get over 100 points on your first launch which opens up a few tech slots.

[Strategia]

Any tech tree that doesn't allow an expert player to get into space will fail because new players don't want to play a rocket game with no rockets. I cannot think of a single combination of parts that can get you off of Kerbin but can not get an expert player to Mun.

That's probably what part costs are for. I wouldn't be too surprised if your initial budget would only cover a suborbital launch at best when money gets added. That way, experienced players can still get to other bodies within a few launches. The biggest problem would be the potential alienation of new players who don't know the ins and outs of rocket design, and build rockets that don't earn their cost back, stranding the entire programme early on. The easiest way to prevent that would be to make the starting budget generous enough to cover a few inefficient launches, but then you'd still have experienced players building huge rockets and going interplanetary with their first launch, so that's got to be a careful balancing act.

Also, note that there appear to be separate costs for developing and actually building parts, so where inexperienced players would probably spend most of their money just building new rockets and experimenting, experienced players still need to shell out quite a lot of money to get access to the really good parts. Sure, you can get a few hundred, if not thousand, science in just a few launches with basic technology, but if you're not getting money for that (I'd assume that money would initially be mostly objective-driven), then all that tech won't get you much.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Strategia

[EatVacuum]

So far, science is REALLY annoying.

Agreed, but I'll add my comments about what I find really annoying in my own post in a bit.

There never seems to be enough power to transmit the science... so I end up having to stop the transmission.

Don't stop the transmission. Don't quote me on this, but it seems science is sent back in data packets. I gave gotten the "not enough power" warning, but then shortly after as the power level came up, it seemed to keep transmitting and I got science points.

#1, it should take MUCH MUCH MUCH less power to send data.

It should require less power, at least when you are close to Kerbin, but more the farther out you get. And anyway, solar panels are way over powered in KSP so gaining it is not a problem, just add a few batteries to every mission and viola, it's fixed. The tech improvements for communications should be about making more sensitive detectors back at KSC (or in orbiting satellites) rather than needing more power at source.

#2, you should NOT lose observations. If you recover, everything you observed should be returned. Every sample taken, returned.

Presumably there are severe limits on the amount of memory available for storing data (i.e. reports), there certainly were in real life until well after the Apollo missions. But reports can be transmitted without loss, if you have the power. If you are talking samples in the sense of soil samples, then there are (still) definite weight considerations. Only a few hundred kilograms of rocks came back from the six moon landing missions, and the amounts brought back by the Luna probes is measured in grams.

#3, you should know ANY time, with very clear warnings, whenever you are trying something that will cause one to lose science... and ALWAYS have the option to not do it.

This losing science is frustrating beyond belief. Maddening.

I work the hell out of science, and get only 10 points here or there, 30 points around the Mun only to not have it when I get home.

Squad... Some basic science rules... please! How do you keep from losing science!!!????

I'd agree if I had yet had that problem. My problem has been trying to figure out how to get a data out of some of the old science parts when I used it unnecessarily. The only way I've found to free up a thermometer is to transmit the data, and unlike the new devices, you can't even do that from the device. And try and find the tiny little antenna on a big rocket that's on the dark side of a planet!

<Additional Edit> - I did another run to a Mun crater and discovered what I think might be a major loss of data... if you tell an science device or the capsule to transmit another experiment home before the transmission antenna has completely finished it's "close" animation (and 1 suspect for at least a second after it stops obviously moving), it seems to me like your stored data goes away and there doesn't seem to be a report of data sent. And I've tried it a couple of times, so I'm sure this is happening to me. Anyone else?

Also, on rereading your post, are you sure you are not transmitting it? Or running the experiment multiple times and not transmitting it home before redoing? Each device seems to store only one result, and each Kerbal can only carry one eva report and one sample at a time. Similarly the capsule can only store one each of eva reports and soil samples from a single biome at a time - it won't let a Kerbal reboard who is carrying a duplicate of a report/sample already stored - and it does warn you and you have to dump it to get in.

Next time check your science count at the start of the mission and add up the value of the science you do during the mission. Then when you get back, before recovering your craft, check it again and see if you got the transmitted science value increase, if any. And only then, recover the vehicle and see if the science score goes up again. If you are absolutely not getting any data, then it must be something you are doing because it seems to work for the rest of us, once we figure out how we should be getting and delivering the science. The better you can document the problem, the easier it will be for us to suggest possible mistakes you are making, or if it is an actual bug, for the devs to analyse it.

Edited October 23, 2013 by EatVacuum
New data ( i ran the experiment 12 more times) :)

[EatVacuum]

I both love and hate the new science. I love that it has given me a whole new reason to play the game, and to go back to stock parts and flying missions that had long become boring. There's a reason to go out there again other than to test new ship designs. I even love the implementation of the science devices, with only a few minor complaints.

But I absolutely HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE (repeat a dozen more times) the repetitious spamming of the "do research", transmit it, wait for batteries to power up and do it again for slightly less gain until eventually, a fraction of a point at a time you finally milk every last science point out of each experiment you are carrying in each biome. I actually got sick to death at somewhere around experiment 70 or 80 of my trip to Minmus. I had to shut the game down and walk away. Grindy is not fun!

The fact that you can keep spamming and transmitting takes away the value of actually bringing the experiments back home. Why bother when you can transmit the same lab experiment 20+ times and actually get more than what you earn from the sampel you carefully carry back to Kerbin?

The way science works, especially for probes is pretty straightforward - you design an experiment to test a theory or analysis a material or behaviour. You conduct the experiment. You analyse the results and design a new experiment and try again. And there isn't much you can do to redesign an experiment when it is a few million miles away on a probe, although it has probably been done in very limited fashion. Repeating the same experiment 30 times is only needed when you are doing statistical sampling. There should be limit to how many times you can use a science part on a mission - probably only once or twice each per mission for the materials experiment since you'd use up the supplies. But something like the thermometer and maybe the goo should be useable once per biome per mission.

Transmission home should be a way of ensuring something gets back in case the mission ends horribly, or if it is a one-way probe. And, if you transmit data home, you should still have the experiment (unless you reset it) onboard and should be able to get the remaining points (up to the original 100% value of the single experiment) if and when you get it home. And only get points for transmitting once per experiment. If however you carry two Science Juniors then presumably you would have them set up for different experiments and so could transmit once each and/or bring home once each.

And lastly, while our current space programs (pitiful as they are compared to the grand old days of Apollo) are almost entirely based around sending out robots to anywhere more than 400km up, boots on ground should be more effective than sending out pitifully limited robots to do research. Not to undersell the results of Spirit, Curiosity and others, but the reality is that a few well trained humans on Mars could have done more in a weekend than once accomplished by most of the robots sent to date. I'm sure that last statement will generate some hostile response, and it may be a bit of an exaggeration. But the main value of sending many probes or rovers vs. one manned mission is purely that you can land in more places. To prove my point about having properly trained humans on site, one rock (Troctolite 76535) picked up by an Apollo Astronaut (Harrison Schmit, a trained geologist) probably answered more questions about the formation of the moon than all of the other rocks brought back combined, human or probe collected. If he hadn't been there and decided to scoop it up because it looked a little different to him, then a lot of "science" would have been lost.

I love what Squad has done with the game, so take this not as a scathing criticism, but as a constructive one in the hopes of making what is already great even better. I invite other to make their positive comments in the same spirit, but flamers need not apply

[EatVacuum]

I'm actually wondering why a capsule is required at the lowest stage - Goddard did liquid fuel at a very small scale, sounding rockets, V-2, Sputnik - it was quite a while before more than dogs and chimps went into space. A really dumbed-down probe level (no reaction wheels and so-on) at a very small scale might be what you've got at low level, but allows you to do robotic missions early rather than after risking a bunch of your pilots.

Then again, I'm a Noob who still hasn't landed on a planet other than Kerbal or orbited another planet other than in the tutorial. I'm not a power user.

Agreed. It makes sense to start with just a probe and the other limited parts rather than a capsule. It's not like you can't earn your first advance or two by just walking around the space centre reporting and sampling anyway, so those who want a capsule could get one quickly.

To my mind, some other things make even less sense. Like the fact I can get all of the necessary parts to build a high performance jet from the Tier 5 Aerodynamics tech node... but wait, the small gear bay is in a different, otherwise almost useless Tier Five box that has those and the (to my mind) almost useless tiny landing legs. I actually built a plane before I noticed them missing, and even tried launching it using girders as skids! Finally got it into the air using JATO (seperatrons for lack of a better small rocket). And don't even talk to me about ladders! How the <expletive deleted> can a frakkin' ladder be in Tier 6? So much for landing a plane and collecting samples 'til I'm most of the way through the tech tree... or doing EVA's on any planet.

[DerekL1963]

The fact that you can keep spamming and transmitting takes away the value of actually bringing the experiments back home. Why bother when you can transmit the same lab experiment 20+ times and actually get more than what you earn from the sampel you carefully carry back to Kerbin?

Not true. It's like emptying a gallon bucket with a quart measure (returning the experiment) or with a teaspoon (transmitting the data), either way there's still only a gallon.

There should be limit to how many times you can use a science part on a mission

One of the beautiful parts of KSP is that each and every player can set his his own limits. You want experiment 'x' to return rather than transmit? Don't transmit - but don't force your choices on anyone else. KSP is a game, intended to played for fun, not a simulator.

[EatVacuum]

Not true. It's like emptying a gallon bucket with a quart measure (returning the experiment) or with a teaspoon (transmitting the data), either way there's still only a gallon.

Agreed, I don't have a problem with the total value of the experiments, just with the need to repeat an experiment dozens of times to get the result. To me, grinding away at a single experiment over and over is not fun. forgive me for not wanting to have to use the spoon.

One of the beautiful parts of KSP is that each and every player can set his his own limits. You want experiment 'x' to return rather than transmit? Don't transmit - but don't force your choices on anyone else. KSP is a game, intended to played for fun, not a simulator.

There is only one right way to play KSP and that is my way! Kidding... but there really is only one way and that is the way that you find fun. I'm not trying to force my choices on anyone, I am trying to provoke a positive and meaningful discussion in the hopes that if many people agree with me, then someone from Squad will see that there is a general opinion that things should change and they will take note. And if this discussion causes a different consensus of what is fun or what the community would like to see, they may convince me, but whether or not I agree, perhaps the game will improve as far as the larger community wants it to.

I made the comment that my post was meant as an attempt at constructive discussion, not criticism of KSP or Squad. I kind of resent that you are accusing me of "forcing my opinions on anyone else". That kind of comment is exactly what I hoped to avoid, I've seen too many vituperative comments ruin what should be a positive exchange of ideas. If you don't like an idea, don't just nay say it or attack the originator, suggest a better one. But for anyone else who would like to see the science process in KSP get even better, what are your comments?