Modular Fuel System Continued v3.3 (OBSOLETE)

Starwaster · November 15, 2013

This. IRL, you're not limited to the same engine. Even if you do use the same engine, they can perform very differently. E.G., the Falcon 9 uses Merlin engines on both the lower stage and the upper stage, but the lower ones perform excellently in atmosphere with tons of thrust while the upper one is very fuel efficient. Also, with the Super-Stretchy tanks, we're not limited to the common feul tank types, we can stretch tanks to any diameter we want (most of my rockets now use SuperStretchy tanks for better configurations of engine clusters).

I generally get rid of the non-super stretchies.

SRFirefox · November 15, 2013

I've been messing around with the KSPX and stock NTRs and I think I've come up with a useful configuration for them if you want to add it to your mod. The KSPX NTR now has about 149 hours of useful burn time (for those who like to refuel their ships) and the stock engine has about 68 hours of useful burn time. This is based on fuel erosion as the hydrogen fuel passes through the fuel element, and the data was taken from Wikipedia's site on NTRs, specifically NRX and Nuclear Furnace test firings. I think I've gotten the math right, though you should check it anyway. The generator's fuel usage is based on the half-life of U235 and effectively infinite for the sake of most KSP players.

@PART[nuclearEngine]

{

	@maxTemp = 2200
	@MODULE[ModuleEngines]
	{

		@maxThrust = 60
		@heatProduction = 300

		@PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]

	{

			@name = LiquidH2

			@ratio = 1.0
			}

		@PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]

		{

			@name = nuclearFuel

			@ratio = 0.000001
			}

		@atmosphereCurve
		{

			@key,0 = 0 850
			@key,1 = 1 420

			}

		}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleAlternator	
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			name = nuclearFuel
			rate = -0.000000000000000005
			}
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			name = nuclearWaste

			rate = 0.000000000000000005
			}
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE

		{

			name = ElectricCharge

			rate = 0.25

	}
		}


	MODULE
	{

		name = ModuleGenerator

		isAlwaysActive = true


		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{

			name = ElectricCharge

			rate = 0.25

			}

		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{

			name = nuclearWaste

			rate = 0.000000000000000005
			}


		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{

			name = nuclearFuel

			rate = 0.000000000000000005

	}

		}



	RESOURCE

	{

		name = nuclearFuel

		amount = 5
		maxAmount = 5
		}
	RESOURCE
	{


		name = nuclearWaste

		amount = 0

		maxAmount = 5
		}

}

@PART[cl_large_nuclearEngine]

{

	@maxTemp = 2200
	@description = After the success of the LV-N, a new, larger version was developed for the Rockomax line of parts. 

This version contains a togglable post-core Liquid Oxygen injector, to boost power when you need it most. You might want to 

pack a dosimeter.


	@MODULE[ModuleEngines]
	{

		@maxThrust = 150
		@heatProduction = 350
		@PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
		{
			@name = LiquidH2
			@ratio = 1.0
			@DrawGauge = True
			}
		@PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]
		{
			@name = nuclearFuel
			@ratio = 0.0000009
			}
		@atmosphereCurve
 		{
   			@key,0 = 0 915
  	 		@key,1 = 1 550
 			}
		}


	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleAlternator	
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE

		{
			name = nuclearFuel
			rate = -0.0000000000000001
			}

		OUTPUT_RESOURCE

		{

			name = nuclearWaste

			rate = 0.0000000000000001
			}
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			name = ElectricCharge

			rate = 1.0

			}
		}

	MODULE
	{

		name = ModuleGenerator

		isAlwaysActive = true


		OUTPUT_RESOURCE

		{

			name = ElectricCharge

			rate = 0.5

			}

		OUTPUT_RESOURCE

		{

			name = nuclearWaste

			rate = 0.0000000000000001
			}


		INPUT_RESOURCE

		{

			name = nuclearFuel

			rate = 0.0000000000000001
			}

		}

	MODULE
	{

		name = ModuleHybridEngine

		configuration = LiquidH2

		CONFIG

		{

			name = LiquidH2

			thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
			exhaustDamage = True
			ignitionThreshold = 0.1
			minThrust = 0
			maxThrust = 150
			heatProduction = 350
			fxOffset = 0, 0, 1.0
			PROPELLANT
			{
				name = LiquidH2

				ratio = 1.0
				DrawGauge = True
				}
			PROPELLANT
			{
				name = nuclearFuel
				ratio = 0.0000009
				}
			atmosphereCurve
 			{
   				key = 0 915
  	 			key = 1 550
 				}
			}


		CONFIG
		{

			name = LiquidH2+LiquidOxygen

			thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
			exhaustDamage = True
			ignitionThreshold = 0.1
			minThrust = 0
			maxThrust = 400
			heatProduction = 375
			fxOffset = 0, 0, 1.0
			PROPELLANT
			{
				name = LiquidH2
				ratio = 0.7
				DrawGauge = True
				}
			PROPELLANT
			{
				name = LiquidOxygen
				ratio = 0.3
				DrawGauge = True
				}
			PROPELLANT
			{
				name = nuclearFuel
				ratio = 0.0000009
				}
			atmosphereCurve
 			{
   				key = 0 485
  	 			key = 1 390
 				}	
			}

		}

	RESOURCE
	{

		name = nuclearFuel
		amount = 25
		maxAmount = 25
		}

	RESOURCE

	{

		name = nuclearWaste

		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 25
		}

	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 0
		}

	}

Chestburster · November 15, 2013

Now I have another problem. It seems Kerbals are incapable of loading liquid fuel.
- snip -

You have duplicated tank configs laying around (as seen with the doubled LOx entry). Remove them and it will work again.

NathanKell · November 15, 2013

Now all we need is - procedural engines!!!
Well, at least some generic engines that can rescale in VAB just like those fuel tanks and their Isp/MaxThrust should be adjusted as well. The bigger the engines, the bigger the maxThrust and slightly lower Isp...
After that, all main parts of rockets are rescale-able in VAB and can bring much more possibilities and reduce lots of RAM usage.

As it happens...if someone will do modeling for me, I can write that.

I've been meaning to post a request thread, but been busy enough I didn't really want to take that on now. But all the work I did for the MFS spreadsheet means I have a pretty good idea how to calculate everything.

I've been using this with the interstellar mod recently and I noticed an issue with xenon volumes. By default a .625m xenon tank contains 700 units of xenon gas while a normal 1.25m fl-t100 can only fit 100 units of xenon despite having 4 times the volume.
Is there a way to fix this or is it done on purpose?

That's true of stock KSP: for some reason the Xenon tanks have super-high volume, unlike the other tanks in KSP. I've been meaning to fix that and rebalance it all, just haven't gotten there yet.

Vostok used N2O/Amine for RCS. The rocket was kerolox, like all R7s. I guess it'd be a good use for N2O, besides hybrids.

My understanding was it used N2O/Amine for all spacecraft engines (RCS and Retro)

Can you elaborate a bit on the difference between cryo tanks and normal tanks?
What's the difference in implementation?
Are they useful only for LH2/LO2, or will they work for any fuel regardless of making sense?
Do I need to use thermal fins with them? What's the boiloff rate (if there is one)?

Cryogenic tanks are lighter per unit of LH2 and LOx stored than regular tanks. Other fuel combinations will be heavier than an equal-volume regular tank. The loss rate is lower for LH2 and LOx in cryo tanks. The loss rate per second is given in RealTankTypes.cfg for each tank type. IIRC loss rate is roughly halved by using a cryo tank. Thermal fins will help keep the tank cool (regular or cryo) and would be useful for longer missions. Although Starwaster has found some issues with the way KSP handles heat that interferes with the fins, and is working on a rework.

I think Nathan should put some instructions on the first post ^^

I think people should read the first post

You can access all MFS-related GUIs ingame by going to the Action Group editor in the VAB/SPH and clicking on a tank or (if RF is installed) an engine.

rpayne88: you have an install issue, some old version of a MFS config file sitting somewhere. Try a clean install, like Milkshakefiend did.

FanaticalFighter: I wouldn't exactly call the Merlin Vacuum the "same engine" as the Merlin 1C / 1D. Takes changing the nozzle a good bit, and they probably also changed the compression ratio, though I don't recall. Same turbopump though, I'd think (it's another of theirs that's pressure-fed).

SRFirefox: that's super helpful! Will do.

FanaticalFighter · November 15, 2013

@Nathan: That's what I meant, though. They took the same platform and built an engine out of it that'd do a heck of a lot better in vacuum than the 1C(if I can remember correctly, the Merlin vacuum is the most feul efficient American made rocket engine that uses RP-1, isn't it? Or am I completely wrong and it uses LH2 or something?)

As for the mod, it'd be BRILLIANT if you could do that. First thing I'd do with that would probably be make 10m wide engines and make enormous LVs

DasBananenbrot · November 15, 2013

That would be amazing if you would make a procedural engine mod. U would like to help but unfortunately I have no experience with modeling at all and with modding in ksp in general xD but I hope you find someone who will help you realising this awesome idea

AdmiralTigerclaw · November 15, 2013

Procedural engines would be a disaster if you thought about them from within' the fluff of the universe.

An engine is a finely tuned, carefully engineered design and each design is the product of months of mathematical work and tests to iron out every little kink they might have. By the very nature of how they have to be designed and built, they can't be tweaked about the way procedural wings or fairings can and still be expected to function without a wide range of nasty problems ranging from under-thrust, to a wicked detonation half-way to space as air pressure drops.

I prefer just more engine options in a range of sizes.

November 15, 2013

My understanding was it used N2O/Amine for all spacecraft engines (RCS and Retro)

It seems like it's indeed so. Perhaps Astronautix considers it's retros as a part of RCS.

Morrigi · November 16, 2013

Procedural engines would be a disaster if you thought about them from within' the fluff of the universe.
An engine is a finely tuned, carefully engineered design and each design is the product of months of mathematical work and tests to iron out every little kink they might have. By the very nature of how they have to be designed and built, they can't be tweaked about the way procedural wings or fairings can and still be expected to function without a wide range of nasty problems ranging from under-thrust, to a wicked detonation half-way to space as air pressure drops.
I prefer just more engine options in a range of sizes.

I dunno, sounds pretty Kerbal to me.

Morrigi · November 16, 2013

(if I can remember correctly, the Merlin vacuum is the most feul efficient American made rocket engine that uses RP-1, isn't it? Or am I completely wrong and it uses LH2 or something?)

Most efficient American-made hydrocarbon rocket, full stop. The 1D has an Isp of 311 in vacuum and 282 in atmosphere.

Sparker · November 16, 2013

Hi!

I've got a little problem. I can't open the menu while in action groups. I used to have the original modular fuel tanks before and it worked fine, but now when I click on a fuel tank while in action groups nothing happens. Yes, I've uninstalled the original modular fuel tanks mod before installing the new one.

123nick · November 16, 2013

hey i have a question. whats the new Aerozine, UDMH, Hydrazine, and methane used for? i cant find a engine that uses them, so are they just there for development reasons or something?

NathanKell · November 16, 2013

Sparker: Make it fail like that, and then zip and upload your ksp/KSP_Data/output.log

I'm 99% sure it's still an install issue (you do have one, and only one, module manager dll in gamedata root? You do have MFT folder in gamedata, and when you mouseover parts in the part selector in VAB it lists the modular fuel tanks?)

123nick: The realscale version of frizzank's Gemini uses Aerozine. But they're basically just there for future proofing (i.e. MFSC v4).

November 16, 2013

hey i have a question. whats the new Aerozine, UDMH, Hydrazine, and methane used for? i cant find a engine that uses them, so are they just there for development reasons or something?

They're used (or will be) by the Realism Overhaul mod. Aerozine and UDMH are much like MMH, and they're mainly used by Titan and Proton, respectively. UDMH is also used in various Soviet orbital engines, while Aerozine is used by a lot of US orbital engines (none of them implemented, though). Methane can be used by Falcon rockets, while Hydrazine is used by the early Soyuz spacecraft. They'll all be implemented at some point in the Realism Overhaul mod.

123nick · November 16, 2013

They're used (or will be) by the Realism Overhaul mod. Aerozine and UDMH are much like MMH, and they're mainly used by Titan and Proton, respectively. UDMH is also used in various Soviet orbital engines, while Aerozine is used by a lot of US orbital engines (none of them implemented, though). Methane can be used by Falcon rockets, while Hydrazine is used by the early Soyuz spacecraft. They'll all be implemented at some point in the Realism Overhaul mod.

ok. thanks for replying

Sparker · November 17, 2013

Thanks!

I've found the problem with your help. I removed ModuleManager.dll by accident. Everything works now.

Genius Evil · November 17, 2013

When I try to start the game with this installed, it stops loading when it reaches any non-stock fuel tanks (stretchytanks & novapunch). The loading bar just freezes. I've tried reinstalling it, but I still get the same results.

NathanKell · November 17, 2013

Are you using the latest MFSv3.2 and StretchySRB v5? Do you have a Module Manager DLL, and only one Module Manager DLL, in GameData?

Genius Evil · November 18, 2013

Yes, yes, and yes. I noticed I had an outdated ModuleManager DLL, but the problem persisted even after replacing it with the new version.

NathanKell · November 18, 2013

Well dang.

Launch KSP, alt-F4 when it hangs. Zip and upload ksp/KSP_Data/output.log and I'll take a look.

Genius Evil · November 18, 2013

Here it is

When I deleted the Novapunch and stretchytanks folders and ran the game, none of the stock parts appeared in the VAB. This just keeps getting weirder.

November 18, 2013

I've found a problem in NovaPunch config. It seems to be missing all radial engines from Captain Slug's pack and the radial vernier. They're quite handy, could you re-add them?

NathanKell · November 18, 2013

Genius Evil: that looks like something broke in your KSP install--it's not finding some _stock_ resources. I'm sorry to say this but the best thing you can do is reinstall KSP and then do a binary search on your mods: put half back in; try it. If it works, put the other half in; if that crashes, pull a quarter out, and so forth.

Dragon01: Oops, right.

Genius Evil · November 18, 2013

I reinstalled KSP; everything's working now. Thanks!

xandalis · November 19, 2013

Okay, found a problem. None of the current config packages include a copy of modulemanager.dll. I've tried adding the most recent version manually, however that winds up breaking all SRB symmetry above 2 fold. Only two of the 3+ boosters will appear in the stage in the VAB (No single/numbered icon mixes), and only appear on the launchpad when launching (and not necessarily in the correct stage). That last bit isn't a bug caused by this mod though. It appears to be caused by the most recent version of Module Manager.

Modular Fuel System Continued v3.3 (OBSOLETE)

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