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[DISCUSSION] RemoteTech 2 Lite development

Cilph

By Cilph
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rpayne88

rpayne88

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Posted

I haven't tried this mod yet, but maybe it would help.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/54998-FScience-Science-Data-Transfer-v0-1

Just write a few lines of code allowing remote tech pods to store, but not gather, data. Also, modify the mod so that data can be transmitted between two vessels. Add a line of code to say something along the lines as you have a satelite link to either a command station or KSC. Science would not be counted until it arrives at KSC on way or another.

Maybe you could use a basic equation to calculate the amount of power needed to transmit a packet of information. I.e. if its size is 5Bits, use an equation such as electric charge used = 3/bit. Then add in a small power draw like what is already used. It won't need to use as much power to receive transmissions because it takes less power to recieve than it does to transmit.

The data loss could be calculated by the range of the recieving antenna. For example, you would get 100% of your science value if you used the 1Mm antenna at KSC while you were transmitting from somewhere else at KSC. The science gained would drop off as you got farther away. In other words, if you are transmitting from 1Mm away, you would only get, say, 25% science (it could still be recieved, just not as clearly.) After that range with that antenna, you lose comms and can not transmit or control the vessel.

I am by no means an engineer or programer. Sorry if I made a critical oversight.

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Ralathon

Ralathon

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I haven't tried this mod yet, but maybe it would help.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/54998-FScience-Science-Data-Transfer-v0-1

Just write a few lines of code allowing remote tech pods to store, but not gather, data. Also, modify the mod so that data can be transmitted between two vessels. Add a line of code to say something along the lines as you have a satelite link to either a command station or KSC. Science would not be counted until it arrives at KSC on way or another.

Maybe you could use a basic equation to calculate the amount of power needed to transmit a packet of information. I.e. if its size is 5Bits, use an equation such as electric charge used = 3/bit. Then add in a small power draw like what is already used. It won't need to use as much power to receive transmissions because it takes less power to recieve than it does to transmit.

The data loss could be calculated by the range of the recieving antenna. For example, you would get 100% of your science value if you used the 1Mm antenna at KSC while you were transmitting from somewhere else at KSC. The science gained would drop off as you got farther away. In other words, if you are transmitting from 1Mm away, you would only get, say, 25% science (it could still be recieved, just not as clearly.) After that range with that antenna, you lose comms and can not transmit or control the vessel.

I am by no means an engineer or programer. Sorry if I made a critical oversight.

It's probably a lot easier to simply check if the dish is connected to the KSC via some link and then base science transmission on that.

As for science loss based on links, why? It seems like a pointless penalty for building networks to me, it would kind of undermine the main purpose of the mod. Not to mention that it has no bearing on reality: Data is transmitted in 1's and 0's, you may lose some packets but no matter how often you ping pong data around you wont lose accuracy.

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TomatoSoup

TomatoSoup

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It's probably a lot easier to simply check if the dish is connected to the KSC via some link and then base science transmission on that.

As for science loss based on links, why? It seems like a pointless penalty for building networks to me, it would kind of undermine the main purpose of the mod. Not to mention that it has no bearing on reality: Data is transmitted in 1's and 0's, you may lose some packets but no matter how often you ping pong data around you wont lose accuracy.

Moreover, with digital data either the entire signal gets there or it doesn't. But the less reliable the link the longer it takes as it sends redundant data for error correction to do its job.

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kalor

kalor

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Fixed that. Didn't know that required a separate permission.

Still can't add comments ^_^

My comments anyways would require a bit more in-depth idea of what YOU want out of the mod. Here is what I would like, (but then I can mod the ranges myself on my own install ^_^)

Dish and antennae range is too far, across the board. The shortest range I am seeing in omni-range is 1Mm, which is ok, in my opinion, though I would prefer to see something still in the <Mm range. KSO is achieved at 2.98 Mm, so to set up a network that can reach anywhere in the SOI of Kerbin you need pretty much the 2nd in line antennae, X4 to get 100% coverage(could probably be done with 3, but I cant peg KSO spot on, I'm always off by like 1-2 minutes on orbital duration ^_^) I personally would feel more of a sense of accomplishment if I had to set up a shorter range system, at say 500KM or less alt., then 1Mm, then KSO, and so on.

I would put in 1-2 sub-1Mm range antennae, maybe even a dish that maxes at 1-3 Mm, and scale up from there. But that only plays to a few players, that want a more challenging time setting up a comms network. Once the 1Mm threshold is crossed, the stepping up from there looks nice. The only oddity to me is the Communitron 32, consumption rate. (Field C12). Double the range of the 16, but over 4 times the consumption. The stepping up is pretty steep across the board.

I might recommend a function (unless you have one, that I am just not seeing?) based on (for the omni's, at least...) the volume of space that they cover. I'm drawing a blank on any suggestions to that effect though.

Overall, the sheet looks good, and I for one am looking forwards to it.

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NathanKell

NathanKell

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Comments on the sheet, except for:

0. Looks good! I like the formula for power use.

1. I generally agree with kalor

2. Will you at least let me add the option of the different range model? I would very much like the option of putting a massive dish near Kerbin, and a realistic-size dish on my voyager probe, and having them able to talk to each other, rather than having to have medium-large dishes on both ends. (This model would default to off, obviously, as it does in the version I added to RT1).

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Cilph

Cilph

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Posted (edited)
Comments on the sheet, except for:

0. Looks good! I like the formula for power use.

1. I generally agree with kalor

2. Will you at least let me add the option of the different range model? I would very much like the option of putting a massive dish near Kerbin, and a realistic-size dish on my voyager probe, and having them able to talk to each other, rather than having to have medium-large dishes on both ends. (This model would default to off, obviously, as it does in the version I added to RT1).

Sorry, I'm really not considering any other range models for now. It's meant to be easier to use for a larger userbase. As for point two, you may always fork it. I'll stress that I am not considering any other range models for the first release. Luckily different range models involve a single function in the NetworkManager class.

Still can't add comments ^_^

My comments anyways would require a bit more in-depth idea of what YOU want out of the mod. Here is what I would like, (but then I can mod the ranges myself on my own install ^_^)

Dish and antennae range is too far, across the board. The shortest range I am seeing in omni-range is 1Mm, which is ok, in my opinion, though I would prefer to see something still in the <Mm range. KSO is achieved at 2.98 Mm, so to set up a network that can reach anywhere in the SOI of Kerbin you need pretty much the 2nd in line antennae, X4 to get 100% coverage(could probably be done with 3, but I cant peg KSO spot on, I'm always off by like 1-2 minutes on orbital duration ^_^) I personally would feel more of a sense of accomplishment if I had to set up a shorter range system, at say 500KM or less alt., then 1Mm, then KSO, and so on.

I would put in 1-2 sub-1Mm range antennae, maybe even a dish that maxes at 1-3 Mm, and scale up from there. But that only plays to a few players, that want a more challenging time setting up a comms network. Once the 1Mm threshold is crossed, the stepping up from there looks nice. The only oddity to me is the Communitron 32, consumption rate. (Field C12). Double the range of the 16, but over 4 times the consumption. The stepping up is pretty steep across the board.

I might recommend a function (unless you have one, that I am just not seeing?) based on (for the omni's, at least...) the volume of space that they cover. I'm drawing a blank on any suggestions to that effect though.

Overall, the sheet looks good, and I for one am looking forwards to it.

Power consumption is based on the area it covers, so that scales quadratically which is like real life. If you want to base it on the volume of coverage, you're going to see it climb even steeper.

You're also not meant to bridge an entire SoI with just omni antennas. Dishes are meant to do that. Omni antennas are for crafts on land or LKO. My preferred way is to set up a static relay network using dishes, and then use omni antennas on any craft that goes near them.

I've halved the ranges on the omni's. Let me know if that is okay.

Edited by Cilph
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kalor

kalor

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Power consumption is based on the area it covers, so that scales quadratically which is like real life. If you want to base it on the volume of coverage, you're going to see it climb even steeper.

You're also not meant to bridge an entire SoI with just omni antennas. Dishes are meant to do that. Omni antennas are for crafts on land or LKO. My preferred way is to set up a static relay network using dishes, and then use omni antennas on any craft that goes near them.

I've halved the ranges on the omni's. Let me know if that is okay.

The power consumption via area of coverage is fine, same principle anyways :D

Re the Antennae and SOI. I was arguing that exact point, and same side. The ranges of prior to your change would have allowed commsats with a single omi antenna to cover half of the Kerbin SOI, and now, it would take a little more, of which I personally agree with.

Before I agree or disagree with the ranges or anything, are these going to be integrated into the tech tree, or will that be up to the player to do independently? That impacts the balance some. Overall though, I like the way it scales, and i think the power values are a bit more in line with the game as it is now.

I noticed a comment in there about repetition of range, which I can agree and disagree with. The range repetition is ok with changes in power consumption (as it is done there) or, if it is career-mode friendly (ie, can transmit science), has different packet rates and such.

Overall I personally like the way things are shaping up there, very nice work :D

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Cilph

Cilph

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The power consumption via area of coverage is fine, same principle anyways :D

Re the Antennae and SOI. I was arguing that exact point, and same side. The ranges of prior to your change would have allowed commsats with a single omi antenna to cover half of the Kerbin SOI, and now, it would take a little more, of which I personally agree with.

Before I agree or disagree with the ranges or anything, are these going to be integrated into the tech tree, or will that be up to the player to do independently? That impacts the balance some. Overall though, I like the way it scales, and i think the power values are a bit more in line with the game as it is now.

I noticed a comment in there about repetition of range, which I can agree and disagree with. The range repetition is ok with changes in power consumption (as it is done there) or, if it is career-mode friendly (ie, can transmit science), has different packet rates and such.

Overall I personally like the way things are shaping up there, very nice work :D

Yeah, I'll put them in the tech tree based on their ranges, but not awfully late or anything. You should be able to head for Jool without a complete tree.

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NathanKell

NathanKell

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Sorry, I'm really not considering any other range models for now. It's meant to be easier to use for a larger userbase. As for point two, you may always fork it. I'll stress that I am not considering any other range models for the first release. Luckily different range models involve a single function in the NetworkManager class.

Cool, thanks.

One other suggestion though, that shouldn't require any work or complexity. I notice RT1 hardcoded Kerbin's radius. Would you mind drawing from referenceBody.Radius instead in RT2? I fixed it in my fork of RT1 (so RT1 will work with my Kerbin->Earth rescale mod), but I haven't seen how you're calculating the position of Mission Control in the RT2 source yet.

I've halved the ranges on the omni's. Let me know if that is okay.

Seems good to me! Other comments will be onsheet.

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Cilph

Cilph

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Cool, thanks.

One other suggestion though, that shouldn't require any work or complexity. I notice RT1 hardcoded Kerbin's radius. Would you mind drawing from referenceBody.Radius instead in RT2? I fixed it in my fork of RT1 (so RT1 will work with my Kerbin->Earth rescale mod), but I haven't seen how you're calculating the position of Mission Control in the RT2 source yet.

Seems good to me! Other comments will be onsheet.

Planet radii aren't hardcoded. Mission control uses polar coordinates and line of sight takes the planet's radius as defined on the CelestialBody itself. AFAIK RT1 did the same thing.

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Cilph

Cilph

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Ah, cool. Great that's fixed.

In RT1, MC uses polar coordinates too, but the radius is hard-coded at 600094. For LoS, it uses radius properly.

public Vector3 Position { get { return FlightGlobals.Bodies[1].GetWorldSurfacePosition(-0.1313315, -74.59484, 75.0151197366649); } }

It uses latitude, longitude and sea-level altitude, so you're set.

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MedievalNerd

MedievalNerd

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@NeoSky: Some day, maybe. I can't simulate energy consumption in unloaded vessels and this is a very complicated system even without that.

I'm not sure if it can help, but TAC Life Support mod is the only mod I've seen that is able to track passive vessels. Maybe there is something in the source that can help, or perhaps Taranis can provide some insight?

Just a thought,

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Cilph

Cilph

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Current todo list:

  • Planet targeting (Testing)
  • Enforce antenna configuration conditions (Testing)
  • EVA configuration / override (Testing) (Done)
  • Max Q (Minimal, breaks part right off the vessel instead of splintering )
  • Drawing active connection line in both Flight and Tracking Station
  • Gear/Lights/Brakes UI override
  • Passive SPU
  • Debug dump unit
  • Settings
  • Career Mode
  • Integrated antennas on high-end probes
  • Remaining Bugs on Github

If there's nothing to add to the list, I'll put out a Release Candidate. If no new bugs are found for a week, and all major bugs are fixed, I'll mark it stable.

Edited by Cilph
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