[Tech tree] Move Advanced Science Tech closer to the beginning

[Crush]

The "Advanced Science Tech" node in the tech tree unlocks two of the most effective experiments, the Sensor Array Computing Nose Cone and the GRAVMAX Negative Gravioli Detector. But Advanced Science Tech is also one of the last and most expensive tech nodes. When you can afford the science points to unlock this node, you don't need many more science points. This makes these parts a lot less useful than they could be.

It doesn't make much sense to place sources of science-points so late in the tech tree. It would be better to move them to an earlier node. This also applies in part to some other scientific parts like the accelerometer which also comes into the game when it's hardly useful anymore.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Crush

[Lexar]

The "Advanced Science Tech" node in the tech tree unlocks two of the most effective experiments, the Sensor Array Computing Nose Cone and the GRAVMAX Negative Gravioli Detector. But Advanced Science Tech is also one of the last and most expensive tech nodes. When you can afford the science points to unlock this node, you don't need many more science points. This makes these parts a lot less useful than they could be.

It doesn't make much sense to place sources of science-points so late in the tech tree. It would be better to move them to an earlier node. This also applies in part to some other scientific parts like the accelerometer which also comes into the game when it's hardly useful anymore.

I don't understand why a 3 rung ladder and a thermometer costs as much as a trip to Minmus... I think there are quite a few things that need moving

[Crush]

I don't understand why a 3 rung ladder and a thermometer costs as much as a trip to Minmus... I think there are quite a few things that need moving

That's a typical misconception for beginners in game design.

Gameplay is always more important than Simulationism.

Tech progression shouldn't depend on what would be realistic. It should depend on what makes sense from a gameplay point of view. New features need to be introduced one after another in a logical progression. Core features first, specialized features later.

[Arran]

IRL we had planes before rockets, now KSP isnt IRL but a game, and not even simulator, but a fun game where you get rockets into a virtual space..

From that standpoint, just pretent this thermometer is made for superadvaced materials, since it still can make readings in a low Sun Orbit all the way down in the freey cold of deep space, and it took alot of research to make materials that sturdy , where a normal thermometer would have broken allready by the violent liftoff from the launchpad..

Se i just explained why its on the techtree where it is..

[tom1499]

There are several sensors and machines that peform simple functions, but takes up many resources to build for us Humans. Kerbals might not have discovered a cheap thermometer construction method, and are currently using the heat of materials to pneumatically inject ionized neutrons into the nucleus of a molecular quark. (Gameplay before realism here.)

[pizzaoverhead]

Gameplay is always more important than Simulationism.

Story and immersion is as important as gameplay. Requiring a lunar landing to recover enough knowledge to research bent strips of metal is immersion-breaking.

[jpkerman]

The first tech advance should have a higher science requirement. At least 5-6 flights should be needed to let novice players practice more and experienced players should have to use the basic parts longer. Once the more advanced parts are available most of the starting parts will be forgotten. Already the controlled play testing of the tech tree is falling apart as every mod maker and their fans are adding non stock parts and reordering the tech tree.

[rhoark]

Here you go:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/53749-VetTech-Lightweight-Tech-Tree-reordering-for-experienced-players

The primary aim of this mod is to bring forward the essential concepts and capabilities, such as wings, jets, rover wheels, and docking, while holding back refinements and quantitative improvements in these areas.

Science parts have been reordered to put the basic pre-.22 sensors earlier, and give some science-generation opportunities in the upper (rocket/aerodynamics) half of the tech tree.

[Lexar]

That's a typical misconception for beginners in game design.

Gameplay is always more important than Simulationism.

Tech progression shouldn't depend on what would be realistic. It should depend on what makes sense from a gameplay point of view. New features need to be introduced one after another in a logical progression. Core features first, specialized features later.

If that was the case, wouldn't it be better to start off with un-maned space craft with small science mods so you can't fit 13 pods and fill out the science tree in 3-5 flights? You would have to play more of the game to get more.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Lexar

[dlrk]

The whole tech tree is a disaster. It makes essentially zero sense, throws an pretense of realism out the window, and generally seems to be seeking a different, more 'arcady' audience than KSP has. It makes me wonder if Squad has had a change in management of some sort.

[Sirrobert]

Remember that this is the first draft of the techtree, it'll need to be improved upon ofcourse.

At the moment, you start with a basic rocket, and it slowly gets more advanced. Staging, different engines, each advanced step of building a rocket comes later.

Example building a space station would actually cost very simple parts. Docking port, structural parts (which is just welded bars), and some solar pannels. But you still need to research alot before you can build it.

So for now: Don't look at the simplicity of each part, but look at the advanced things you can do with it. For example, a ladder allows your kerbal to get out and back into a landed craft. That's a big step forward to using your RCS to fly up to the pod (which you can't do at higher gravity planets)

[Terran]

The whole tech tree is a disaster. It makes essentially zero sense, throws an pretense of realism out the window, and generally seems to be seeking a different, more 'arcady' audience than KSP has. It makes me wonder if Squad has had a change in management of some sort.

The whole point of the tech tree is to ease new players into the game at their own pace. Yes, even the dreaded casuals. People who can't calculate hohmann transfers and oberth effect slingshots in their heads. It's meant to be simple, it's meant to be easy, it's meant to be 'arcade-y'. This is a game with elements of a sim. Not the other way around. It's meant first and foremost to have fun gameplay, with realism coming second, especially if it interferes with, or unduly complicates, the gameplay.

Now, could the elements of the tech tree use a little re-arranging? Maybe, perhaps. But that's why we're here. To test and provide feedback (and no, saying something sucks and stealth accusing SQUAD of pandering to casuals because you don't like it are not feedback ).

[TimMartland]

I think probe parts (maybe just the Stayputnik) should be available from the start. I know people are saying 'Gameplay before realism' but there is a step when realism goes completely out the window. Almost all the early rocket launches were unmanned, the first orbiting craft/satellite was Sputnik, not Yuri Gagarin, and lets face it - pretty much everyone's first rocket prior to 0.22 was a satellite. It makes more sense from a gameplay perspective to let players practice without repeatedly killing Kerbals. Apart from minor discrepancies like this, the Tech tree is a good feature and the progress is mostly balanced.

Edited October 19, 2013 by TimMartland
Misspelling/Grammar issue and more stuff

[Crush]

For the simulationists: The tech tree is not just about what's technically possible, it's also about inspiring the scientists to try things in the first place.

Like after you launched some rockets into orbit, a scientist gets the idea "hey, how about measuring the temperature up there? Let's get a thermometer!".

[JayCheetah]

For the simulationists: The tech tree is not just about what's technically possible, it's also about inspiring the scientists to try things in the first place.

Like after you launched some rockets into orbit, a scientist gets the idea "hey, how about measuring the temperature up there? Let's get a thermometer!".

Hey how about measuring the gravity, heres the GRAVMAX Negative Gravioli Detector.....

I don't get it. You start a topic because some things in the tech tree are not of your liking, but when someone else feels that other parts are out of place you disagree with their post...

Be consistent and like the Tech Tree should be.

If they really want new players get to know the game and the mechanics, a logical choice would be to do first flights with gravity reading and atmospheric reading.

Along with a Kerbal way of saying what happens at certain altitudes, they might get the hang of gravity turns by themselves.

I agree with the fact that some science equipment is introduced so late in the tech tree that you basically do not need to use it to gain science point and therefor losing it value.

[ouion]

I wish there is a simulator and player mode for career mode.

You can chose either one.