Stations in .22

[MrPopcup]

Ok! I'm happy with .22 update, it's really nice and refreshing, I was getting bored of KSP before this update, but now career made limits of rockets, and you need science to unlock other parts, until this:

Space stations are pretty useless before .22 and now too, dev's must've made specific researchs for stations, if you park in a stable orbit say Mün, u wont get any science after u researched, in other words, dev's must've made researchs to take long time to finish and require stations to complete, for example, I must dock a power module, science module, crew module and transmitting module, if I do this I can start doing RANDOM GENERATING science missions, also to limit these, we put that u can only research 10 times, so we can't make infinite science.

Who agrees? And please dev's , make this possible, you need to find a way to make stations usefull, we enjoy making them look amazing, docking also takes some time, so if you do this you will hit two birds with one stone, making us happy and buying you some time to finish what you want.

OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS LIKE THIS!

[Sirrobert]

They are still usefull as staging and refueling point in LKO, to make getting anywhere easier.

But I agree, they could do with some long term research parts

[Superfluous J]

They specifically said they'd never tie research to time, because you could just time warp to get it.

I'm sure there are workarounds to that (Having a budget based on time is one of them, but that gets tricky to balance) but so far, that's the word from on high.

[MrPopcup]

Yep, that's true, but really, I still enjoy making them, thats why I opened this thread!

[Crimson_Pride14]

I was thinking on this earlier and had a couple of thoughts on science and space stations (and ground based science station). Like you said it doesn't benefit you much to make one since you do experiments once then you have to do them somewhere else, which a station is not good for.

So I thought we need more experiments! Since we had such a great community, let's get them involved as well. How about each update we have a number of experiments added from the developers and from the community. They could be realistic (spiders making webs in zero gravity) to something more kerbal (making tomato monsters with radiation). So the community can have a thread where they post ideas and then the best are put in a poll and people get to vote on which they want in the update. Since these can be internal experiments, the won't require in-game models and amount to nothing more than data files.

As for how you get the experiments up there, launching a new station everytime is very wasteful and kind of defeats the purpose. You also want to give a reason to do it on a space station. So you need a way to take experiments up and down, kind of like what the shuttle used to do. So to do this you have a payload part that is part of your craft. It has a certain amount of space, and experiments take up a given amount. So you can either fit a one big experiment or multiple smaller ones. All you do is take your craft up and dock with the station to swap out experiments and you bring the old ones back.

Another thing to think about is why do you need a space station? It can be justified by saying you need a certain amount of science ability to do certain experiments, more than just sticking an instrument to the exterior of your spacecraft. The distinction I think can be measurements are done on spacecrafts, research is at science stations. So research you have to do on a station. Going one step farther, you could require the addition of certain modules to the station to increase it's ability to do science. For example, to do a biology experiment you would need a biology module. So the more modules you add, the higher number/level of complication experiments you can do.

As for the purpose of these experiments, that's a good question that I can't address. My thought was that instead of unlocking tech, the research on stations could be used to increase efficiency. For example, a chemistry experiment could lead to fuel with better ISP, or a biology experiment makes more efficient life support systems. Since we can't use time as a mark of completion, we can use a system that requires you to finish a certain number of experiments or finish them in a certain place. Or you could have a progress bar, where each experiments gives you a certain amount of research points, i.e. like 500 for a certain experiment. To improve the ISP of a fuel for example, you might require 10,000 chemistry points. To get the points you have to get the experiment to the station and get it back to the planet.

Anyway, that's what I was thinking.

[nats]

They should make some science based station modules and make higher level science missions require them to be placed in orbit for several weeks - as they would require vast amounts of electricity putting them ina proper station would be the only real way to do it. And once resources come along in the game and these experiments need constant crew attention and therefore air, food and water etc space stations will really srtart to come into their own.

[Lexar]

I was thinking on this earlier and had a couple of thoughts on science and space stations (and ground based science station). Like you said it doesn't benefit you much to make one since you do experiments once then you have to do them somewhere else, which a station is not good for.

So I thought we need more experiments! Since we had such a great community, let's get them involved as well. How about each update we have a number of experiments added from the developers and from the community. They could be realistic (spiders making webs in zero gravity) to something more kerbal (making tomato monsters with radiation). So the community can have a thread where they post ideas and then the best are put in a poll and people get to vote on which they want in the update. Since these can be internal experiments, the won't require in-game models and amount to nothing more than data files.

As for how you get the experiments up there, launching a new station everytime is very wasteful and kind of defeats the purpose. You also want to give a reason to do it on a space station. So you need a way to take experiments up and down, kind of like what the shuttle used to do. So to do this you have a payload part that is part of your craft. It has a certain amount of space, and experiments take up a given amount. So you can either fit a one big experiment or multiple smaller ones. All you do is take your craft up and dock with the station to swap out experiments and you bring the old ones back.

Another thing to think about is why do you need a space station? It can be justified by saying you need a certain amount of science ability to do certain experiments, more than just sticking an instrument to the exterior of your spacecraft. The distinction I think can be measurements are done on spacecrafts, research is at science stations. So research you have to do on a station. Going one step farther, you could require the addition of certain modules to the station to increase it's ability to do science. For example, to do a biology experiment you would need a biology module. So the more modules you add, the higher number/level of complication experiments you can do.

As for the purpose of these experiments, that's a good question that I can't address. My thought was that instead of unlocking tech, the research on stations could be used to increase efficiency. For example, a chemistry experiment could lead to fuel with better ISP, or a biology experiment makes more efficient life support systems. Since we can't use time as a mark of completion, we can use a system that requires you to finish a certain number of experiments or finish them in a certain place. Or you could have a progress bar, where each experiments gives you a certain amount of research points, i.e. like 500 for a certain experiment. To improve the ISP of a fuel for example, you might require 10,000 chemistry points. To get the points you have to get the experiment to the station and get it back to the planet.

Anyway, that's what I was thinking.

I think the underlined part would make a great SciFi show. Attack of the killer spiders in a zero G space station. I'm sure it's probably been done before though.

[NoMrBond]

I'm pretty sure there was talk of research-over-time for long term space-stations / satellites on the last KSP TV dev stream (Squadcast 6)

[TheSuperintendnt]

I had an idea for a station Science Lab module with changeable, duration based experiments. Its based off the hitchhiker module with a deploying experiments rack, then I took inspiration from the ISS's Kibo module and added the arm and a Docking Port mount in the back.

Since SketchFab wasn't working:

Edited October 22, 2013 by TheSuperintendnt

[protoz]

Using space stations for fuel purposes is impractical right now and in the future updates. First, you don't need to refuel as you can create a stock ship that can visit all of the Kerbal solar system without refueling. And second, when the mining parts patch comes along, space stations are not gonna be generating fuel, so your better off just mining and filling up on a planet you ran out of fuel on. I think some form of resource generation from space stations seems appropriate. Science generation would make sense while fuel and Kerbal bucks doesn't. But then again, nothing is clear yet with what the game devs plan to do with R&D tree as you can fill out with just a few launches and then still have an insane abundance of science leftover to fill the R&D tree dozen of times over. As long as they make science a highly demanded resource and numerous ways to spend it beyond the current R&D tree, then science generation in space stations will be plenty enough.

I think the modules that should create or classify a ship into a space station should weight 50-200 tons a piece, its not something thats not very mobile and getting it to orbit will be a challenge or moving it outside of Kerbin.

Edited October 22, 2013 by protoz

[TheBedla]

Going one step farther, you could require the addition of certain modules to the station to increase it's ability to do science. For example, to do a biology experiment you would need a biology module. So the more modules you add, the higher number/level of complication experiments you can do.

I really like this. You would have a basic station research module that would allow you to do a few experiments (so single-module stations would be viable in new SOIs), but due to diminshing returns you would quickly run out of useful experiments. Then you could add various labs that would NOT perform experiments themselves, only if they were connected to the basic research module.

So you could have biology lab, chemistry lab, materials lab, even a habitat module that would unlock experiments on kerbal staying in space, radiation lab, vaccum exposure lab, mapping module (like Priroda on MIR)...

And you would not be forced to make these modular stations - if you wanted, you could alway just haul the basic lab + a single module to orbit for a one-off experiment (so even people who do not enjoy docking would get something out of these parts).

[Pulstar]

Speaking of resource generation, Space Stations would give more incentives to have them if they could grow food or something and resupply from them. Why haul around a couple tons of food for two way mission to Jool when you can haul enough for the initial journey, resupply from "Laythe Orbital Gardens", land or do whatever, then send the kerbals back to dock with the station to chill and eat all the food there until the return transfer window. Now there's simply no reason to keep your little green men in space suits chilling on a station from a gameplay perspective, or to dock with one apart from refueling.

For science I think the problem with stations is difficulty of putting a station into orbit versus benefits. In real life while putting a station into orbit or assembling it is difficult, the main issue is keeping them continuously supplied. The latter in KSP doesn't really happen unless it is a refueling station. But why not send experiment specimens/materials/tools to a station? You send the necessary stuff, transfer it to the station's lab and start experiments.

As mentioned earlier in this topic it takes a long time to finish them, it could be a fixed length or a varied random length. You can either have the "payout" be in a single message when the duration of the experiment is over or gradually over the course of the experiment. Although the latter would require a some new GUI elements so you don't miss the fact you're getting science. Once the experiment is over you can send something new there and work on that. 3-4 different kinds of experiments for the orbital lab total, with separate science pools and once long running experiment not draining the entire pool like other experiments. It would take effort to get those points, although it could resemble a bit of a grind (but then again you can farm science from all Mun biomes rather than go beyond for a long time, depends what you like). Another issue I see with this is how do you justify seeing how kerbin spiders weave webs in a Jool station as getting you more science, sans typical kerbal silliness.

Overall I think that the problem with space stations is that they're not that good for interesting gameplay from a pure SCIENCE! perspective, landing is more fun. I think that if they tied into the greater logistics of going into space somehow, providing incetive to build and dock with them, people would also be inclined to use them for science as an icing on the cake feature. You need a station to refuel around Jool or to restock on tasty Kerbmatos from the hydroponics gardens, why not add a science lab to it so it can do something more as well? Even if the reward wouldn't be big or "instant" like from landing and getting a soil sample, you would feel inclined to do space station science because it would require little extra effort and you would want to send spece stations somewhere for other and arguably better gameplay reasons than science which you can get from other sources.

Mapping or long term observation orbiters are another thing, I would personally be happy if probe cameras could do "crew reports" as you fly over biomes. After you take a few snapshots yourself you could leave it in orbit for long term study, by setting it in such a mode, and have the probe inform you when it has data ready to send back. Long term study for experiments could be a seperate but minor pool. Not big discoveries so you don't feel forced to time warp and do nothing (unless you are obsessed with getting everything ASAP, I know that there are such people). But that would need an event notification GUI like a log or calendar, which we need anyway for true multiple mission at the same time space program gameplay, if only to integrate Kerbal Alarm Clock features into the core game (which are really needed, especially the launch window calendar).

[stijnovic]

Yes, space stations need a real role in the science part. Maybe for developing better life support systems? I have always found it rather strange that my Kerbins survive in their little capsules indefinitely if I don't make them crash. Maybe a space station could also be used to test newly unlocked "prototypes" of new parts.

[Flock of Panthers]

A small idea, but: what if science gathered for an experiment was influenced by the number of crew?

Obviously it can't just be a multiplier, I don't know the kind of supermath needed to work out a solution (the (data*value)/(0.2*crew) kind of math).

It's just a a thought given how my entire .22 career was played with mk1 pods. It was never worth the weight to send multiple Kerbals.

We'd still need a couple of space station styled experiments, but suddenly space stations have a niche as being "those things with 10 crewmen". It would also encourage taking larger crew and living space on interplanetary trips (job spent 2 years in a mI pod)

Edit: actually, that math would needlessly penalise anyone who sends one man, and scales too quickly. It was only a rough gesture, but it's pretty far off the mark.

I still like the basic idea though. How about if it was modelled more like bonus science points for additional crew?

So... (Data x value) + (value x extracrew)?

Edited October 22, 2013 by Flock of Panthers
New math

[allmappedout]

The only way this will work is if you go through a method that I mentioned in the post where Harvester originally posted about this; you need to have multi-disciplinary science. You cannot have a single 'science' currency and make stations work, as you can then just farm away all the data you want and complete said tech tree.

What you need is some experiments which are better done (or only done) in space, or on Duna, or around Eve, etc, and they contribute to a different tech tree (ie: low orbit of Eve? propulsion science!), Duna rock samples? Mobility science (rover stuff, etc)).

What you end up with is a tree where you can focus on improving part of your space program more than others. I'm thinking similar to Master of Orion or Civilisation II here, where you could push ahead with propulsion technology to spread out your planets quicker, or you could focus on robotics to make big factories, etc, but there were interdependencies and so on.

I'm not sure if they'll ever go down that route, which is a shame, but I think it'd give a much more complex and fulfilling tree as a result.

[KerbMav]

Someone wrote, Harvester said, Squad does not want time-based stuff.

[Minarkhaios]

My humble suggestions on this large subject :

- Create huge experiment modules. So large that it would be impractical to move around like we do actually with the lab. Or a least impossible to retrieve.

- These modules can conduct several type of experiments. But will need to be attached to a sub-module for each kind. (ex : a biology module, a physics one, etc..)

- Each kind of experiment can only be done once (or only a very few times) by environment. No more radio transfer spam.

- Radio transfer is, as today, very ineffective (10% is good I say)

- Experiment results can be transfered to a special part for retrieval.

So with this, we will have huge station for research, and we still need to work on the logistics part.

And more, if different sub-modules are not found in the same place of the research tree, we will have to update an old station with the new shinny lab. And perform new experiment on what was an outdated station.