[Airships in 1.12.3] HooliganLabs Mods

[Galane]

What kind of balloonage would one need to lift a thousand tons to the top of Eve's atmosphere?

Here's my HL assisted Eve lander. http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/67575-Take-a-Chance-on-Eve-A-lander-that-gets-you-down-and-back-up!

[whizzo]

I remember the "old" Hooligan Labs mod used to support front/back and left/right trim when using multiple suitably arranged envelopes. Is this feature still around and I just can't find it? Or was it removed?

[JewelShisen]

I remember the "old" Hooligan Labs mod used to support front/back and left/right trim when using multiple suitably arranged envelopes. Is this feature still around and I just can't find it? Or was it removed?

That feature is still here to an extent. However you now have to adjust it on a part by part basis through the right click context menu for the parts.

[wasmic]

Hey JewelShisen, I found something that can be considered quite... weird. Now, the Hecto airship envelope is much, MUCH larger than the Death Star envelope. However, the Death Star envelope has about 4 times as much aerostatic lift as a Hecto. I don't understand the logic behind that. Also, the standard airship envelope is also has far too little lift, at least compared to a Death Star.

[wasmic]

Does anybody have suggestions for how to balance an airship out? Mine keep flipping over, so they are practically uncontrollable. This happens even when I place my balloons in symmetry, right on the CoM.

[Boamere]

Does anybody have suggestions for how to balance an airship out? Mine keep flipping over, so they are practically uncontrollable. This happens even when I place my balloons in symmetry, right on the CoM.

Look at the centre of lift and keep it going through the center of mass, and use MEGA SAS! (or if you are using FAR like me generally if you go to fast things will flip out)

[taniwha]

You want your CoBuoyancy to be higher than your CoM. When it comes to centers, nothing changes between rockets, planes or dirigibles (or anything else for that matter): the vessel rotates around its CoM such that the line from the CoM to the Co(Applied force) is parallel to, and in the same direction as, the applied force, whether that force is thrust, drag, lift or buoyancy. Or gravity, for that matter, but the length of that line is 0, so it has no effect. Note that this ignores the fact the vessel would swing right past that point to an equivalent rotation on the other side of that centerline, and then back again, just like a pendulum.

[wasmic]

Yeah, it might be because I'm using FAR. I'll try placing my balloons higher, and I'll also try to position correctly with the CoL, although I thought the CoL only showed aerodynamic lift, and not aerostatic?

[JewelShisen]

Yeah, it might be because I'm using FAR. I'll try placing my balloons higher, and I'll also try to position correctly with the CoL, although I thought the CoL only showed aerodynamic lift, and not aerostatic?

CoL shows both dynamic and static lift points.

[jdmgto]

Just to prove I'm not solely an ungrateful asshole, my two best missions utilizing Hooligan parts.

Ballooning on Eve

Eve Sample Return

[JewelShisen]

Just to prove I'm not solely an ungrateful asshole, my two best missions utilizing Hooligan parts.

Ballooning on Eve

Eve Sample Return

Why would anybody think that you were?

Also cool missions!

[jdmgto]

I had some harsh words for the submarine portion of the mod and the way it calculates buoyancy, namely flooding every compartment.

[JewelShisen]

I had some harsh words for the submarine portion of the mod and the way it calculates buoyancy, namely flooding every compartment.

Harsh words do not an asshole make. You had a valid point and were respectful about it.

[ABZB]

Would it be possible to add attach nodes to the ends of the OMG airship? Is there a technical issue? If there is a reason to not do that for the general release .cfg, would it be possible to post the coordinates that correspond to the endpoints so that they could be added if desired?

Edit:

Based on some experimentation, these nodes seem to work pretty close to ideally:

node_stack_top = 0.0, 5.0001 , 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 1

node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -5.0001 , 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 2

and modify:

attachRules = 0,1,0,1,0

to:

attachRules = 1,1,1,1,0

If anyone tries that and has a collision issue, let me know too

Edited March 5, 2014 by ABZB

[JewelShisen]

Would it be possible to add attach nodes to the ends of the OMG airship? Is there a technical issue? If there is a reason to not do that for the general release .cfg, would it be possible to post the coordinates that correspond to the endpoints so that they could be added if desired?

Edit:

Based on some experimentation, these nodes seem to work pretty close to ideally:

node_stack_top = 0.0, 5.0001 , 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 1

node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -5.0001 , 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 2

If anyone tries that and has a collision issue, let me know too

There isn't any reason for that envelope to not have end nodes. I just saw no purpose to it as the shape means that it wouldn't fit will with anything else.

[jdmgto]

Harsh words do not an asshole make. You had a valid point and were respectful about it.

I had it harsher but forgot I edited them out.

I'm still of the opinion that the way the submarine portion of the mod works is very counter-intuitive. Namely, things that float in stock KSP are now submarine missiles crashing for the bottom. Again, the submarine I designed, if you remove the the ballast part, will float quite easily. Even if the tanks I used were full of fuel, they float. This is actually realistic. Even with KSP's massively overbuilt fuel tanks they are still buoyant. The two main tanks I used building this sub were the Rockomax X200-16, and the FL-T800. The -16 has a diameter of 2.5 meters and a height of about 2.5 meters. It's total volume is therefore about 12.25 m^3. So even fully fueled with 8 tons of fuel and it's 1 ton empty weight the tank should float. Emptied liked I made it the thing should barely be kissing the water. The -T800 has a diameter of 1.25m and a total height of 5m (roughly). Total volume is about 6.1 m^3 so even with 4 tons of fuel and it's 0.5 ton empty weight it should float. By virtue of being tanks they are by design water tight. This, in generalities, meshes with how these tanks behave on the water in KSP, they float. Prior to this mod the only way to get something to sink was to attach it to a Jumbo 64 which for some reason was unnaturally non-buoyant.

So, coming from a position of someone who's spent more than a few hours messing around with buoyancy in KSP my assumption, and yes I assumed because my normal method of dealing with mods is to just start playing with parts and see what happens, was that I would attach the buoyancy parts to an otherwise floating vessel and be able to increase the apparent mass of the vessel until it would sink and then tweak the part until it was applying the right amount of extra mass to keep the ship under. This is the inverse of what worked with the balloon mod. It followed logically from how things behave in KSP and the real world. Something is too heavy to float in the air so you artificially lower it's density via balloon until the total vehicle is low enough density to rise into the air.

Right now the way the submarine parts work would be like if putting a balloon part on your ship would cause it to rocket into the sky and you have to adjust the buoyancy to hold the ship down. It's highly counter intuitive.

Now there are a lot of oddities with KSP's water which is attributable to it being a rocket game that for some reason has people wanting to build boats and submarines out of rocket and airplane parts. I don't know how the game is coded in the back end or what you have to do to make your parts work. Maybe this is the way it's gotta be to work, I don't know. Just saying, it's not working like you'd expect it to.

On another note, would the part I used in my sub, the cylindrical 2.5m ballast tank be editable to give it enough buoyancy to make my sub work as is? A suggestion, with the buoyancy tanks you might also want to consider reusing some stock parts to make buoyancy tanks that mesh well with the look of the game. I think the cylindrical RCS tank and the Oscar B would be good candidates, especially the later for probes.

[JewelShisen]

Ok so I checked the math (not because I doubted you but because my chemistry teacher always taught us to never take any answers we could not duplicate) and have come to the same conclusion you have. The only reason I can think of is that it was made this way to deal with the abhorrent amount of parts in the game that float when they have no right to do so (like engines and structural struts).

As for your sub that you made I would suggest one change. Add a second float part near the back to give better pitch control.

As far as altering the parts I do not know what the correct values would be but would be happy to test it given a copy of your craft file.

[K3-Chris]

Any plans for making more usably sized and packaged parts? say a 1/2m stack mounting part that opens on the sides and puts out cylindrical air-bags around the craft like the orion might have?

(Those are for impact cushioning not floating, but you get the idea).

Would be very useful to land stuff on oceans but still let them ascent inside a fairing.

[JewelShisen]

Any plans for making more usably sized and packaged parts? say a 1/2m stack mounting part that opens on the sides and puts out cylindrical air-bags around the craft like the orion might have?

http://d1jqu7g1y74ds1.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/orion-landing.jpg

(Those are for impact cushioning not floating, but you get the idea).

Would be very useful to land stuff on oceans but still let them ascent inside a fairing.

I plan to do a full overhaul of the parts this month to make them more usable in both size and shape.

[K3-Chris]

Sweet, liked the idea of the parts when they were new, but now when using FAR and needing fairings etc most of them are pretty impossible to use.

[JewelShisen]

Sweet, liked the idea of the parts when they were new, but now when using FAR and needing fairings etc most of them are pretty impossible to use.

I agree. It is why I want to make some that are more practical in shape, size, and deployment.

[jdmgto]

Ok so I checked the math (not because I doubted you but because my chemistry teacher always taught us to never take any answers we could not duplicate) and have come to the same conclusion you have.

I don't mind the math check. It's just good practice to not take people's numbers for granted, certainly not when confirmation is this easy. Buoyancy is pretty easy to check given that a cubic meter of water weighs 1,000 kilograms.

The only reason I can think of is that it was made this way to deal with the abhorrent amount of parts in the game that float when they have no right to do so (like engines and structural struts).

I agree. While fuel tanks should float many, many things shouldn't but still do. A solid steel grappling hook from KAS will float, in fact it floats so hard it won't even submerge at all when ejected straight down. I don't know how the mod was programmed, but as an end user I'm less concerned about an LV-N bobbing in the waves than I am a bouyant vessel turning into an underwater ICBM.

As for your sub that you made I would suggest one change. Add a second float part near the back to give better pitch control.

Noted, this was a first run of the design. If you're going to be redoing the parts soon I will likely wait as I don't really care for the look of the radial tanks.

As far as altering the parts I do not know what the correct values would be but would be happy to test it given a copy of your craft file.

I appreciate the offer but the thing is lousy with mods. I may strip it down as the cameras and chutes aren't going to affect the sub but I think B9, Firespitter, and Procedural wings would be needed on top of HL.

[JewelShisen]

I don't mind the math check. It's just good practice to not take people's numbers for granted, certainly not when confirmation is this easy. Buoyancy is pretty easy to check given that a cubic meter of water weighs 1,000 kilograms.

True but KSP measures in by the Ton which makes the conversion a bit weirder.

I agree. While fuel tanks should float many, many things shouldn't but still do. A solid steel grappling hook from KAS will float, in fact it floats so hard it won't even submerge at all when ejected straight down. I don't know how the mod was programmed, but as an end user I'm less concerned about an LV-N bobbing in the waves than I am a bouyant vessel turning into an underwater ICBM.

Agreed there. I plan to start learning C# just so I can correct that mod.

Noted, this was a first run of the design. If you're going to be redoing the parts soon I will likely wait as I don't really care for the look of the radial tanks.

I appreciate the offer but the thing is lousy with mods. I may strip it down as the cameras and chutes aren't going to affect the sub but I think B9, Firespitter, and Procedural wings would be needed on top of HL.

My plan is to redo all the parts for both the Airships and the Subs.

[wasmic]

My plan is to redo all the parts for both the Airships and the Subs.

How about keeping the Una and Ray "parachutes"? They look really great, I'd be sad to see them go. Also the Cirrus, it's just beautiful.

[JewelShisen]

How about keeping the Una and Ray "parachutes"? They look really great, I'd be sad to see them go. Also the Cirrus, it's just beautiful.

Una and Ray are staying as they will mostly fit with stack parts. The Cirrus is still 'up in the air' (Pardon the pun) but I am leaning toward it staying as well.