Please, indicate what biome I'm flying over, else EVA reports are laborious tedium

[Superfluous J]

Do you think they had to check several times to know if they were in a polar biome? Or do you think it was readily apparent?

To be fair, it's pretty apparent in KSP when you're in a polar biome too...

[HeadHunter67]

Not on the Mün, it isn't. And here's the thing that refutes the "why would you expect a map?" question:

A Kerbal will still bring back science from a biome he's never encountered before. Since the only difference is when you click for the EVA report, exactly how would it be detrimental to gameplay? The only thing it changes is that it prevents a clickfest and needless, pointless EVAs.

[Joonatan1998]

I think they just should make EVA reports in space not depend on biomes.

If we can't see any differences on the ground how do kerbals see them?

[Superfluous J]

Not on the Mün, it isn't.

Nor is it on our Moon. Scientists didn't have detailed maps of all the different "biomes" the astronauts could land in. They could see what the surface looked like and could take guesses and they guessed where each Apollo mission should land.

There are a good half dozen SUPER OBVIOUS biomes on Mun. Same with Minmus. Same with Kerbin. I don't need a map to see that that HUGE HONKING CRATER is a biome. The smaller ones? I need to go check one to see. The poles? I need to check to see. Which makes total sense to me.

Also? In my current career mode I've almost unlocked the tech tree without ever setting foot (Kerbal or robotic) on Mun OR Minmus. And I've also cut the total science available to about 1/3 the default. So this weird concept that you need to know exactly where all the science is in the game is ridiculous. You don't NEED it. Take what you can find and move on. You'll be fine.

[KaBob]

We decide what we do or don't want to do in KSP, it's not a weird concept. Plus it would be nice to have things to work on in KSP that aren't just gathering science points, mapping biomes could be one of things. I'd love to have an actual reason to put satellites in orbit around every planet and moon, even if I could technically manage without the maps I'm a bit of a completionist and would much rather gather all data from all biomes.

[Kegereneku]

This is an old thread but the problem is still here, I agree with allmhuran that you should be able to identify AT LEAST biomes you've already made an EVA report in.

However since we obviously can't base the game on the idea that you should be able to strip mine the Mun on the first flight, I'm more interested by a mapping technology coming later. And for that we need first for probes to be able to do thing when unfocused.

Whoever said "Apollo didn't had map" is in the wrong and living in the past. Today we CAN discern "different zone" enough to send probes where they'll get the most information.

[allmhuran]

Nor is it on our Moon. Scientists didn't have detailed maps of all the different "biomes" the astronauts could land in.

This misses the point.

The problem is that it doesn't make any sense for it to be the way it is, both because it is annoying, but also (and in my opinion more importantly) because it's illogical. If the kerbal did not know in advance that there was such as thing as "the polar lowlands", how do they suddenly know when they're over the polar lowlands?

Or how about this: How come the kerbal can see the polar lowlands when they're over it, but not when they're 2 seconds away from being over it?

Or this: Let's say that the Kerbal has to pass over the biome before they know it exists. Fine, so how come I can't just warp around for a while to find them all? Why do I have to tell the kerbal to get out and tell the kerbal to do an EVA report before they know?

Or even this: Let's say they have to be on EVA to know. OK, so why can't I put them into EVA and warp around? Why do I have to actually tell them to do an EVA report for them to know that they are over a particular biome? How does telling them to do an EVA report suddenly bless them with the knowledge of which biome they are over? Do they have their eyes closed the rest of the time?

It makes no sense.

[Superfluous J]

This misses the point.

The problem is that it doesn't make any sense for it to be the way it is, both because it is annoying, but also (and in my opinion more importantly) because it's illogical. If the kerbal did not know in advance that there was such as thing as "the polar lowlands", how do they suddenly know when they're over the polar lowlands?

I agree with this in theory, but how else could the game tell you? "You found something interesting. Looks like these rocks are different because they never get direct sunlight and are frequently blocked by the nearby hills" Then you could call that area the "place where rocks didn't get a lot of sunlight due to the elevation and latitude." Or you could call it, you know, Polar Lowlands.

Or how about this: How come the kerbal can see the polar lowlands when they're over it, but not when they're 2 seconds away from being over it?

How come I can read a street sign I'm approaching in my car when I'm 114 meters form it but not when I'm 116 meters from it? (No I didn't measure) Also, I don't think you should get biome data from orbit. It's landed or nothing IMO.

Or this: Let's say that the Kerbal has to pass over the biome before they know it exists. Fine, so how come I can't just warp around for a while to find them all? Why do I have to tell the kerbal to get out and tell the kerbal to do an EVA report before they know?

I personally don't think you should have to get out and check and for that reason I use the ScienceAlert mod.

I don't understand why it's so hard to imagine that Jeb lands in the Polar Lowlands, steps out, notes it's different than the 3 other places he's been on Mun and then... get ready for it... decides to all this area the Polar Lowlands.

[Commander Zoom]

SCANsat has this capability right now, and has for a while. Someone else posted another mod (a HUD) that also includes the information. The OP is simply asking that it be made stock.

[allmhuran]

Also, I don't think you should get biome data from orbit. It's landed or nothing IMO. [...]

<...>

I don't understand why it's so hard to imagine that Jeb lands in the Polar Lowlands, steps out, notes it's different than the 3 other places he's been on Mun and then... get ready for it... decides to all this area the Polar Lowlands.

Well, the game currently has non-landed biomes, whether or not it should is not really relevant to this thread.

In any case, if we did have landed biomes only and kept the current mechanic as it is, I'm sure you'd agree it would just make it even more annoying to find new biomes. Especially since, in either case, much of the time the biomes are not at all visibly distinct. Look at a high-res picture of the Mun and try to determine where the boundary is between the midlands and the lowlands.

[Superfluous J]

Look at a high-res picture of the Mun and try to determine where the boundary is between the midlands and the lowlands.

Why? Once you've got one of each you're good. Or are you trying to min/max it and land in little areas where 3 or 4 biomes meet? A map would help with that for sure.

I agree though that I didn't think about the 'must land to be sure' aspect of not getting biome data in the air. There's got to be a middle ground though between "Gravity data while in high orbit over Kerbin's Deserts" (because, you know, that's significant data) and "Sorry, Mario Kerman, but the Science is in another Biome!"

[BudgetHedgehog]

How does telling them to do an EVA report suddenly bless them with the knowledge of which biome they are over? Do they have their eyes closed the rest of the time?

Well, unless the info was displayed permanently (which is the case with VOID and some mods), you'd have to click a button to find out anyway. And I think of it more as when not doing Science, the kerbals are just taking in the view - then you tell them to actually do things which lets you know.

Robau's Science Revisted mod swaps the crew and EVA reports so EVA can only be done globally (lowOverMinmus, for example) and the Crew Report can be done in orbit per biome. Binding that to an Action Group (as I do with all Science experiments) greatly reduces the click-count to 0 to find out what biome you're over (but it is just one key press and you have to click the box to make it go away again, but still). Makes more sense than the 'get-out-and-stare-at-ladder' thing - not to mention in 0.23, doing that erased manoeuvre nodes. Very glad that's fixed. While it's not a permanent display, which is what I think you're after, it is a step closer.

To be honest, I do agree with you in principle. It would be nice to at least know when the current biome has changed to an unexplored one (a la Science Alert) - the kerbals see the difference in the surroundings or whatever handwave you want to justify that - then your report would be like 'reporting in from the place near the top of the planet that we're just seeing for the first time Poles'. I wouldn't a permanent display though - half the fun in exploring the places is seeing the biome names when I get there. If I was discovering biomes for the first time, I think it'd suck the fun out of it a bit to permanently know what biome I'm over as I'm going to be getting out and Sciencing anyway. I'd just want to know when new Science can be done.

Edited June 5, 2014 by ObsessedWithKSP

[HeadHunter67]

How come I can read a street sign I'm approaching in my car when I'm 114 meters form it but not when I'm 116 meters from it?

More relevant to this discussion if you had to get out of the car to read each street sign, instead of being able to look out the window. That's the real issue here - Kerbals can tell what biome they're over when they are out of the capsule more easily than when they are inside, looking at the sensors and instrumentation. Are the windows on these capsules that bad?

[TinfoilChef]

Personally I don't see why one line of text could not be added to the HUD, say just below the altimeter... something like "In Space just above Kerbin's Shores"... or "Kerbin's grasslands", or "Minmus Midlands"... Etc.

[Twreed87]

I hate when people confuse challenge with tedium. No one's asking anything to just be handed to them, they just want information you already have more readily available. They just want to remove a few tedious, pointless clicks. If I've already been to all the biomes, but want to revisit one to perform a new experiment, why do I have to get out, do a report, throw it away, and get back in just to find out what biome i'm over? Is that fun for someone? Does it even make sense? Most of those pods have windows, why can't they tell us what biome we're over by looking out the window? It would only happen for biomes we've already found. This would also mean that when I'm in a polar orbit trying to collect as many biome EVAs as possible, I'll know when I'm over one I've already gotten. Again, it's just saving me the pointless exercise of doing an EVA report I already have.

[Sky_walker]

Good idea.

as for implementation.... Well, I for one would love to see it as an item, say: orbital scanner (make it look like a camera from one of the space probes?), and now:

if it's just detecting whatever you are over a new biome:

- add a diode (like from Z100 battery pack) that will switch from red to green when flying over a new biome,

and if it'll tell you what the biome is:

- make it work similarly to the thermometer - with tweakable that can toggle between showing biome name.

But there is a problem with a new biome: what does define a new biome? One that we never did any science in? That would make a whole thing extremely limiting, basically: one-time use in a campagin. IMHO it should show you if you haven't done at least a single experiment from these avaible to your spacecraft on a ground level - implementation wouldn't be the easiest one, but the value of that in a mid game would be enormous.

[MR4Y]

Before this even can be considered, one must change the lackluster, crowded, unintuitive and imprecise interface of right clicking on kerbals and/or ship parts to do everything. Yes, you can map stuff to action groups, but later it becomes a chore, specially given the fact that you have to decorate which action group does what, limiting you to only a few action groups.

[r4pt0r]

Personally I don't see why one line of text could not be added to the HUD, say just below the altimeter... something like "In Space just above Kerbin's Shores"... or "Kerbin's grasslands", or "Minmus Midlands"... Etc.

bumping for this idea, with the addendum that they should add a stock satellite mapping system, and you can only know the biome youre in if you have mapped the planet/moon.

[MR4Y]

bumping for this idea, with the addendum that they should add a stock satellite mapping system, and you can only know the biome youre in if you have mapped the planet/moon.

Or someone make a mod that has the feature to "help convince the developers".

[cpast]

Or someone make a mod that has the feature to "help convince the developers".

Doesn't that mod already exist in the form of ScanSAT?

[gendalf]

I wouldn't a permanent display though - half the fun in exploring the places is seeing the biome names when I get there. If I was discovering biomes for the first time, I think it'd suck the fun out of it a bit to permanently know what biome I'm over as I'm going to be getting out and Sciencing anyway.

i would disagree with that, unless kerbals don't know what a telescope is

"I'd just want to know when new Science can be done"

yes, especialy usefull it would be if there would be an option in time acceleration - to stop it, when you are in a place where you can collect new science, if at least 1 of the instruments on board, can get full science from the place (you didn't perform science action previously with that instrument+that place)

Edited July 14, 2014 by gendalf

[xEvilReeperx]

yes, especialy usefull it would be if there would be an option in time acceleration - to stop it, when you are in a place where you can collect new science (didn't do it previously)

You've seen ScienceAlert, right? If you don't mind mods, it takes a lot of frustration out of the game (in my opinion).

bumping for this idea, with the addendum that they should add a stock satellite mapping system, and you can only know the biome youre in if you have mapped the planet/moon.

ScienceAlert now has this option if you have SCANsat installed

[LethalDose]

Support for having this be in stock.

Also, this information is displayed in VOID's HUD. Love that mod.

[rkman]

It is tedious even with the "Science Alert" mod, because many biomes are small enough that they pass by in just a few seconds. Even with only 4x physics timewarp there's a good chance you'll be to late by the time you actually do the EVA report.

[allmhuran]

It's funny how this thread gets periodically resurrected.

I suppose it makes sense... as people play the game more and send new missions to the Mun or Minmus, they waste their time doing science activities that say "Oh, didn't you know? Oh right, there's no way for you to know. Yeah, you already have this one. Better luck next time!", leading to the realization of how annoying it will be to get more without some mod or other installed to fix this mechanic.