[1.12.*] Deadly Reentry v7.9.0 The Barbie Edition, Aug 5th, 2021

[Baleine]

21 hours ago, Starwaster said:

@Baleine

When you specified 'without ablative material', I assume you mean you removed that from the Mk1 Pod and added a separate shield? To the bottom of the crew cabin?

Can you post a picture of that so I have a better idea of the configuration? Both in the VAB from a good angle and during reentry...

(the smaller parts surviving isn't terribly unusual; remember lots of the Columbia's individual parts survived after it broke up; your surviving parts probably had slowed enough and the chute / docking parts had enough drag to keep slowing it at a faster rate than heating could keep up with)

P.S. The C4 is a value added service. You're welcome!

Yes, that's it, there is a separate heatshield at the very bottom of the reentry module (as I mentioned previously).

 Here's the reentry module in the VAB

 

I eventually activated cheat menu to see temperatures and I saw that the pod is the only part whose temperature was rising abnormally. At all times, it is hotter than the crew cabin, the realchutes and the docking port. Only the heatshield was hotter than the pod (I won't mention the solar panels which were expected to be destroyed high in the atmosphere).

I also could see that at 60km in atmo, going at roughly 2500m/s, if I was deviating from my retrograde, the pod is being hot very fast and can even explode, although the parts attached to the pod were faring well

I'm dead sure something ain't right, but I don't really see what, and I'm certain the conception is not that bad.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Baleine

[Starwaster]

53 minutes ago, Baleine said:

Yes, that's it, there is a separate heatshield at the very bottom of the reentry module (as I mentioned previously).

 Here's the reentry module in the VAB

 

I eventually activated cheat menu to see temperatures and I saw that the pod is the only part whose temperature was rising abnormally. At all times, it is hotter than the crew cabin, the realchutes and the docking port. Only the heatshield was hotter than the pod (I won't mention the solar panels which were expected to be destroyed high in the atmosphere).

I also could see that at 60km in atmo, going at roughly 2500m/s, if I was deviating from my retrograde, the pod is being hot very fast and can even explode, although the parts attached to the pod were faring well

I'm dead sure something ain't right, but I don't really see what, and I'm certain the conception is not that bad.

I'll play around with the design and get back to you. First I want to see how it behaves in stock. It might be that FAR just doesn't consider the Mk1 to be very well shielded from the airstream, and I can't say that I think it's wrong. I think you need a broader heat shield at the very bottom. Maybe one of the deployables linked on the first post. (the ADEPT shields, except they're a little broken and the patch I made for DRE isn't fixing it like they should. Still working on that)

[Baleine]

12 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

I'll play around with the design and get back to you. First I want to see how it behaves in stock. It might be that FAR just doesn't consider the Mk1 to be very well shielded from the airstream, and I can't say that I think it's wrong. I think you need a broader heat shield at the very bottom. Maybe one of the deployables linked on the first post. (the ADEPT shields, except they're a little broken and the patch I made for DRE isn't fixing it like they should. Still working on that)

This seems very odd to me. I just don't see how the pod may be getting hotter than the crew cabin (and by more than 400K) if the ship is going bottom first but I guess you know these things better than me (although I'd like to understand what is at stakes).

But thanks for having a look at my issue. By the way, I succeeded in reentering it from Mun orbit by aiming 38K periapsis, but command pod has hit more than 800K, while I was pinpointing retrograde at all times, without engaging warp.

[Starwaster]

19 hours ago, Baleine said:

This seems very odd to me. I just don't see how the pod may be getting hotter than the crew cabin (and by more than 400K) if the ship is going bottom first but I guess you know these things better than me (although I'd like to understand what is at stakes).

But thanks for having a look at my issue. By the way, I succeeded in reentering it from Mun orbit by aiming 38K periapsis, but command pod has hit more than 800K, while I was pinpointing retrograde at all times, without engaging warp.

What I meant was that realistically, a part situated like that would still get some exposure to hot gasses. Just not as much as if it was up front exposed to the compressed shock wave. But FAR doesn't affect occlusion at all as far as thermals go, so that part is all stock, and as long as it's perfectly lined up away from the shockwave then stock KSP will say it's 100% occluded. So if you're getting any heating at all it's not perfectly lined up. The Mk1 pod will start to be exposed somewhere between 5-10 degree angle of attack. (the crew cabin underneath is exposed as soon as there is any deviation at all. See below for explanation as to why it is so heat resistant)

One thing that might be affecting you is what the navball marker says. On a suborbital trajectory, especially closer to the surface, there will be deviation between what the orbital retrograde marker says and what it says for surface mode. If it's not in surface mode when you hit atmo then change it!

Other factors:

• The Mk1 crew cabin did not get any special config handling for Deadly Reentry and its skin can withstand a temperature about 500 degrees hotter than it should be able to. That will get fixed in a future update.
• The Mk1 pod has lesser heat resistance (lower max temp) when its ablator is gone. 
• Putting some small fins on the Mk1 pod will help greatly in keeping it lined up and protected from reentry heating.; the ones with yellow trim work nicely.

Edit: I'm doing your Mun reentry as you described. One thing I forgot to mention before is that a reentry in stock with 42km Pe is NOT steep. That's shallow as heck and it's dangerous because Deadly Reentry modifies the shield configurations to burn faster for more challenge. You want to reenter with an orbit of about 20-30km  Pe. If you spend too much time in the upper atmosphere you will get heating over a lot longer. (heating is based on velocity cubed but drag is velocity squared... so you want to get lower faster so you can bleed off speed faster)

Edit #2: That little shield under the crew cabin is definitely too small as I feared. On the trajectory you've been using it fails between 40-45. Even with a steeper trajectory it fails at around 30. There's too much mass and not enough drag. That's also something a larger shield would help with.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Starwaster

[Baleine]

2 hours ago, Starwaster said:

Edit #2: That little shield under the crew cabin is definitely too small as I feared. On the trajectory you've been using it fails between 40-45. Even with a steeper trajectory it fails at around 30. There's too much mass and not enough drag. That's also something a larger shield would help with.

I guess I'll need some shield mod then (why isn't it integrated with DRE ? ), and get used to NOT use DRE shields (which feels weird).

Edit : Or maybe I should revise my reentry modules. Do you think, besides of the heatshield, that it's a ridiculous thing to build ?

 

Quote

One thing that might be affecting you is what the navball marker says. On a suborbital trajectory, especially closer to the surface, there will be deviation between what the orbital retrograde marker says and what it says for surface mode. If it's not in surface mode when you hit atmo then change it!

That's strange. When I follow atmo's navball, I burn in the atmosphere, but if I follow orbit navball, I'm able to get past reentry (not by much)

Edited February 26, 2016 by Baleine

[Starwaster]

What I'm saying is use a larger shield for extra braking power. The shield itself is fine for small probes or even as a shield upgrade for a mk1

[Baleine]

Ok, thank you for your help. I will try some shields you mention in OP and will tune my reentry trajectories in order to make a nice aerobraking.

[Kublaj]

Hello,

Can you please help me with my problem?

I have installed this mod with CKAN along with module manager. so I have installed v7.3.1.  for DR and v2.6.20 for manager. My problem is, that It doesn't seem DR mod is "engaged" during the flight. I see new heat shields in VAB, but I do and do not see temperatures when right clicking on parts during flight. Also I tried very steep entry trajectory and pod without shield survived.

other mods i have installed is theese (if it helps somehow):

• Chaterer
• Enviromental enhancements
• Engineer Redux
• X science
• science alert
• Stage recovery
• Toolbar

I do not also see any config window and alt+d+r doesn't show anything (but I found itt this topic, that is was removed)

Thanks

 

 

[Phineas Freak]

@KublajDRE does not display the part temperature in the right click menu anymore. KSP supports that natively so If you want to check the temperature of a part, you can toggle it via the Alt+F12 "Thermal" menu.

[Kublaj]

Well solved out that mod "works" in a way it applies physics, but now i experience new kind of issue:

In VAB when i pick up heat shield form mod and snap it to my part (here module) It actualy snaps to that snapping nod. But... it remains transparent as if not part of my assembly.

I figured out that when i rotate the shield upside down it will snap and become part of assembly. Is that on purpose? Because it doesn't seems to me, that this way it is in correct position.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Kublaj

[Piberius]

I understand this mod was made before Squad introduced reentry heat.  How does this mod compare to the 100% of the 1.0.5 heat model?

[Starwaster]

On 3/2/2016 at 6:40 AM, Phineas Freak said:

@KublajDRE does not display the part temperature in the right click menu anymore. KSP supports that natively so If you want to check the temperature of a part, you can toggle it via the Alt+F12 "Thermal" menu.

Clarification: DRE only ever displayed part temperature if debug mode was enabled. (along with a bunch of other debug information). Except for the long lost defunct buggy inflatable shield.

On 3/2/2016 at 6:49 AM, Kublaj said:

Well solved out that mod "works" in a way it applies physics, but now i experience new kind of issue:

In VAB when i pick up heat shield form mod and snap it to my part (here module) It actualy snaps to that snapping nod. But... it remains transparent as if not part of my assembly.

 

I figured out that when i rotate the shield upside down it will snap and become part of assembly. Is that on purpose? Because it doesn't seems to me, that this way it is in correct position.

 

Snapping and attaching the shield rightside up is NOT impossible. You just need to try harder and use some finesse. It's actually pretty easy once you get the hang of it. The reason it acts like that is because thin parts attachment is a little buggy. That's a KSP issue and not a Deadly Reentry issue. It has to be fixed in KSP and there's nothing I can do about it to make it not-buggy. 

You just need to keep trying and not give up. (seriously, I can do it at will first time, every time)

12 hours ago, Piberius said:

I understand this mod was made before Squad introduced reentry heat.  How does this mod compare to the 100% of the 1.0.5 heat model?

When KSP 1.0 came out, Deadly Reentry was updated to use the new thermodynamics model. The first post KSP 1.0 DRE version modified the stock thermodynamic system to introduce the concept of skin heating vs internal heating to better model how parts should be affected by heat, especially convective heating.

KSP then adopted the skin system that I had introduced so Deadly Reentry limits its thermal involvement to balancing of temperature tolerances to prevent unrealistic or unbalanced behavior. Other thermodynamic enhancements are fire damage and better handling of ablator depletion in heat shields.

Non-thermodynamically, it also introduces G-Force damage

[Piberius]

12 hours ago, Starwaster said:

When KSP 1.0 came out, Deadly Reentry was updated to use the new thermodynamics model. The first post KSP 1.0 DRE version modified the stock thermodynamic system to introduce the concept of skin heating vs internal heating to better model how parts should be affected by heat, especially convective heating.

KSP then adopted the skin system that I had introduced so Deadly Reentry limits its thermal involvement to balancing of temperature tolerances to prevent unrealistic or unbalanced behavior. Other thermodynamic enhancements are fire damage and better handling of ablator depletion in heat shields.

Non-thermodynamically, it also introduces G-Force damage

What I meant to ask is how much more deadly is this compared to vanilla.  With stock heat at 100% in career I can push through Duna's atmosphere at nearly 2km/second without a heat shield.

With the the Deadly Reentry mod, would that same scenario result in Kerbals KIA?

[Starwaster]

24 minutes ago, Piberius said:

What I meant to ask is how much more deadly is this compared to vanilla.  With stock heat at 100% in career I can push through Duna's atmosphere at nearly 2km/second without a heat shield.

With the the Deadly Reentry mod, would that same scenario result in Kerbals KIA?

How can I put this.... which way would you like your Kerbals? Crispy or Original Recipe?

[Piberius]

14 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

How can I put this.... which way would you like your Kerbals? Crispy or Original Recipe?

I worked at a KFC, I always liked the look of the crispy chicken.

But could this be replicated by turning up the stock slider to 120%?  Or is this much higher than that?

 

[Starwaster]

2 hours ago, Piberius said:

I worked at a KFC, I always liked the look of the crispy chicken.

But could this be replicated by turning up the stock slider to 120%?  Or is this much higher than that?

 

Stock maxTemp and skinMaxTemp values are often higher than they need to be. DRE rebalances those values to saner levels. Pretty much all stock and a lot of parts from other mods are handled as well. Anything not caught gets run through caught and has its maxTemp clamped if it's too high.

But just increasing the reentry difficulty isn't really enough (except maybe for a neophyte who doesn't know how to really play yet)

Decreasing global conductivity would have more impact than increasong the difficulty slider. (reason is that a lot of incoming heat ends up conducted into the interior. Therefore, decreasing conductivity causes it to buildup to higher levels at the skin.

[Piberius]

16 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

Stock maxTemp and skinMaxTemp values are often higher than they need to be. DRE rebalances those values to saner levels. Pretty much all stock and a lot of parts from other mods are handled as well. Anything not caught gets run through caught and has its maxTemp clamped if it's too high.

But just increasing the reentry difficulty isn't really enough (except maybe for a neophyte who doesn't know how to really play yet)

Decreasing global conductivity would have more impact than increasong the difficulty slider. (reason is that a lot of incoming heat ends up conducted into the interior. Therefore, decreasing conductivity causes it to buildup to higher levels at the skin.

So I just installed you're mod, do you recommend the stock Re-entry slider to be left at 100%?

[Starwaster]

12 minutes ago, Piberius said:

So I just installed you're mod, do you recommend the stock Re-entry slider to be left at 100%?

try it first and then adjust it if you still want it harder. (I keep mine at 120 usually)

[akaryumc]

Hi, I cannot access the setup window using alt+d+r.... I'm very frustrated, what can I do? I want to change some settings around.

[Starwaster]

15 hours ago, akaryumc said:

Hi, I cannot access the setup window using alt+d+r.... I'm very frustrated, what can I do? I want to change some settings around.

Using key combo to open the menu was removed well over a year ago. The menu itself isn't functional at this time but you can create a Module Manager patch that does the same thing. Below is a sample config that you can use. These are the only DRE specific settings you can access. All thermodynamic specific changes must be made using the stock interface. (i.e. PhysicsGlobals, etc)

// Physics Overrides & Settings
@REENTRY_EFFECTS[Default]:Final
{
	%crewGClamp = 30
	%crewGPower = 4
	%crewGMin = 0
	%crewGWarn = 450
	%crewGLimit = 900
	%crewGKillChance = 0.01
	%ridiculousMaxTemp = 1523.15
	%maxTempScale = 0.5
}

 

Edited March 14, 2016 by Starwaster

[akaryumc]

4 hours ago, Starwaster said:

Using key combo to open the menu was removed well over a year ago. The menu itself isn't functional at this time but you can create a Module Manager patch that does the same thing. Below is a sample config that you can use. These are the only DRE specific settings you can access. All thermodynamic specific changes must be made using the stock interface. (i.e. PhysicsGlobals, etc)

// Physics Overrides & Settings
@REENTRY_EFFECTS[Default]:Final
{
	@crewGClamp = 30
	@crewGPower = 4
	@crewGMin = 0
	@crewGWarn = 450
	@crewGLimit = 900
	@crewGKillChance = 0.01
	@ridiculousMaxTemp = 1523.15
	@maxTempScale = 0.5
}

 

Oh ok, that would explain why that doesn't work then. Thank you!

Ok so... I can open DeadlyReentry.cfg and find this:

// Physics Overrides & Settings
REENTRY_EFFECTS
{
    name = Default
    ridiculousMaxTemp = 1523.15
    maxTempScale = 0.5
}

 

Do I just add what you typed in there or how do I change those settings? Because I can't find exactly what you typed. Sorry I'm not as savvy with coding as I would like.

[Starwaster]

22 minutes ago, akaryumc said:

Oh ok, that would explain why that doesn't work then. Thank you!

Ok so... I can open DeadlyReentry.cfg and find this:

// Physics Overrides & Settings
REENTRY_EFFECTS
{
    name = Default
    ridiculousMaxTemp = 1523.15
    maxTempScale = 0.5
}

 

Do I just add what you typed in there or how do I change those settings? Because I can't find exactly what you typed. Sorry I'm not as savvy with coding as I would like.

Better would be to create a new file with extension cfg like DeadlyReentryOverrides.cfg and then paste the text I gave you into that file. It will override DRE's settings. Except that I just noticed a problem with what I gave you so I'm going to go fix it right now....

Corrected cfg (replaced most @ with % - Why that matters is because @ means to replace an existing cfg node, and most of those won't be valid until AFTER DRE has completely loaded)

// Physics Overrides & Settings
@REENTRY_EFFECTS[Default]:Final
{
	%crewGClamp = 30
	%crewGPower = 4
	%crewGMin = 0
	%crewGWarn = 450
	%crewGLimit = 900
	%crewGKillChance = 0.01
	%ridiculousMaxTemp = 1523.15
	%maxTempScale = 0.5
}

 

Edited March 14, 2016 by Starwaster

[akaryumc]

11 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

Better would be to create a new file with extension cfg like DeadlyReentryOverrides.cfg and then paste the text I gave you into that file. It will override DRE's settings. Except that I just noticed a problem with what I gave you so I'm going to go fix it right now....

Corrected cfg (replaced most @ with % - Why that matters is because @ means to replace an existing cfg node, and most of those won't be valid until AFTER DRE has completely loaded)

// Physics Overrides & Settings
@REENTRY_EFFECTS[Default]:Final
{
	%crewGClamp = 30
	%crewGPower = 4
	%crewGMin = 0
	%crewGWarn = 450
	%crewGLimit = 900
	%crewGKillChance = 0.01
	%ridiculousMaxTemp = 1523.15
	%maxTempScale = 0.5
}

 

Great, Thank you very much! I'm going to try this out. I really appreciate it.

[Starwaster]

6 minutes ago, akaryumc said:

Great, Thank you very much! I'm going to try this out. I really appreciate it.

NP! Also, if you open up the file DefaultSettings.cfg you will see those exact same settings but with comments explaining what each one does.

[akaryumc]

On 3/14/2016 at 4:57 PM, Starwaster said:

NP! Also, if you open up the file DefaultSettings.cfg you will see those exact same settings but with comments explaining what each one does.

Ok, so I tried what you gave me. Changed some numbers around, but the kerbals still die from a sub-orbital reentry. I don't make it to orbit. I try and angle the pod down to generate a bit of lift but it is not always possible. The crew always dies from G-force overload. This feels a bit broken. I don't know what to do.

// Physics Overrides & Settings
@REENTRY_EFFECTS[Default]:Final
{
    %crewGClamp = 30
    %crewGPower = 2
    %crewGMin = 0
    %crewGWarn = 450
    %crewGLimit = 1800
    %crewGKillChance = 0.01
    %ridiculousMaxTemp = 1523.15
    %maxTempScale = 0.5
}

That's what I set the numbers to. And this is inside the DeadlyReentry folder inside GameData as DeadlyReentryOverrides.cfg

I appreciate any help!