This game is for *massive* nerds

[rkman]

Your points (OP) are incorrect. The very first Vostokhad no solar panels, so don't we.

That's not a point that the OP makes.

He complains that at that start of the game battery capacity is ridiculously/unrealistically small. That makes KSP (career mode beginning) hard in a way the real life rocketry is not. It is a peculiar artificial difficulty.

[Godot]

That's not a point that the OP makes.

He complains that at that start of the game battery capacity is ridiculously/unrealistically small. That makes KSP (career mode beginning) hard in a way the real life rocketry is not. It is a peculiar artificial difficulty.

Well, the solution would be, to lower the power costs per ransmision ...

but then, for game balancing purposes, they also would have to significantly lower the scientific gain per [Crew/EVA]-Report and transmittewd scientific experiment.

After all, already now, it is widely considered to be too easy, to traverse the science tree till its end.

So, all in all, you would end up with having to make multiple transmissions per flight to gain the same science that you now gain with only a few ones (with other words, more micromanagement)

[AlternNocturn]

I think I understand what the OP was trying to say, and I agree with it. I had to move the solar panels back one node just to be able to build the one craft I needed to collect more data.

I like to think of myself as a pretty decent Kerbal player and even that screwed me over. So, bad: certain node placements. Good: A potato can tweak the tech tree to fit its needs, that's how easy it is to do it. And that's what I did.

[vexx32]

In my opinion, OP's reaction to Career mode sounds very similar to someone walking into NASA and demanding a job with zero experience, and expecting rocket scientists to listen to their design decisions. Yes, KSP can be very difficult at the outset. That's okay. It's okay for a game to be difficult until you start to grasp the concepts and get a feel for how it all works. I've been playing KSP since 0.13.3, and Career mode is still a bit difficult for me still. That's okay; it's just because I'm not accustomed to the restrictions. It's merely a matter of experimenting and figuring out what works. One cannot open up a spaceflight sim that focuses on the building, testing and science aspects, and expect to figure it all out within the first couple of hours with little prior knowledge of how spaceflight works already.

[Alguien]

In my opinion, OP's reaction to Career mode sounds very similar to someone walking into NASA and demanding a job with zero experience, and expecting rocket scientists to listen to their design decisions.

Except Career mode was made for new players in the first place, so that "opinion" (i am sure its actually called an analogy but i could be wrong) will only work if NASA wanted people with zero experience in the first place.

And OP complains are the old problem of the game explaining very little, if anything, about how the game mechanics work.

[Savage117]

Hey Sizzly,

You sound really frustrated, and that’s understandable, this game can be rather unfriendly to new players and I have seen some in the community seem to resent that, no idea why, they were new once too. But a lot of the community can be very helpful.

One thing you should learn about this game, is its just that, its a game, not a simulator. The physics of the game are only partially realistic and the tech tree progression has no basis in reality at all. The devs decided to go a different route, in a way I like that they didn't follow the well trodden path, it gives the Kerbals some personality they lack, going the rout of Realism is boring, everybody would be doing the Mercury to Apollo missions or the Soviet equivalent and all the rockets would look roughly the same. But with the way they did it, it takes creativity and the ability to think outside the box with limited resources to accomplish whatever task someone has set for themselves. Also, please note this game is still in development and some stuff could change pretty drastically.

If its lack of help that’s frustrating, you have definitely come to the right place, this community is better than most, but most people resent others who yell and scream that the game sucks because of this or that. Im not saying your doing that, just warning you, you will not be well received if you don't look for your issue before yelling about it.

If its help you need for docking or getting a rocket in orbit or whatever, Scott Manley is a well known KSP player and YouTube personality, look up his videos if your stuck. He likes to get into the science of the game as well and the real concepts the game is based off of. Youtube is really helpful for this game if your a visual or aural learner. If you learn better with written materials im sure there are plenty of tutorials in these forums somewhere.

One thing I really disliked about this game when I was new though, was the lack of easily accessible information that you need to know quickly, like your apopsis and periopsis (even my spell checker cant spell it), or how much Delta V you have total or in a certain stage. You have to figure your Delta V by hand after looking at at least four or five part entries in the VAB before you have enough info to figure it, why don’t we have that info at hand in stock? I decided to mod the game almost immediately, I got MechJeb first for its info screens, didn't want the autopilot but at the time it was the only one with all the info I liked. Now you can find at least three mods that give you the info you want at a glance, four if you count SteamGuages: MechJeb 2, Engineer Redux, and VOID. If you get MechJeb, I suggest you either only use it for the info screens or use the autopilot as a flight demonstration for concepts you may be having a hard time with. Don't use the autopilot for regular launches, IMO it takes all the fun out of the game and ruins any sense of accomplishment.

Docking seems to be the hardest thing for a lot of people to wrap they’re heads around, for me is was rendezvous I just couldn’t get the hang of it for the longest time, docking was a piece of cake compared to the many hours of frustration it took me to rendezvous effectively Two things I learned that helped me greatly with docking though, there is a keyboard command that allows you to make the controls less sensitive and jumpy, I think it Capslock by default, I use it often. And in general you have to be patient, take it slow only do tiny bursts of RCS when you are close to your docking target, and RCS is basically required to dock effectively with a minimum of frustration, it can be done without RCS but its not fun, unless you find exploding and reloading several times "fun".

Good luck with your Kerbal endevours.

[Pingonaut]

I'd say start in sandbox, then move to career mode. It doesn't actually take a *massive* nerd to figure it out, it just takes time.

[Pwnstarr]

I don't know how long you've been playing but it's just like everything else, stick to it, keep trying new things (and making mistakes) and eventually something will click. Rinse, repeat.

I have put in probably close to 150 hours in sandbox mode, career mode is still giving me a challenge. I am just a chemist though so I didn't know the first thing about orbital mechanics starting out - I do have a relative who was a spacecraft propulsion engineer for NASA for his entire career though which is neat.

I wouldn't bother transmitting data until you get your first solar panels or can carry lots of batteries, with transmissions in between burns.

And GL with your real life rocket science studies

Edited November 3, 2013 by Pwnstarr

[Geoff-AU]

Because if the game is too hard, reality is even harder.

Think about it.

Sooo.. why exactly are you going for a job in spacecraft design?

If you can't hack this game, you can't hack the job IMO.

As for KSP itself, yes it has a learning curve. No, your first few craft will not be successful. This is part of the fun for me. You do get annoyed when despite your best efforts you can't get the damn thing into orbit but if the game was easy it would be BORING!!. The difficulty is what makes it a lasting, rewarding game to play.

I would definitely recommend starting off in sandbox first, with a full complement of parts to play with. Watch some instructional videos on youtube as well (Scott Manley) it will help.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

I think I understand what the OP was trying to say, and I agree with it. I had to move the solar panels back one node just to be able to build the one craft I needed to collect more data.

I like to think of myself as a pretty decent Kerbal player and even that screwed me over. So, bad: certain node placements. Good: A potato can tweak the tech tree to fit its needs, that's how easy it is to do it. And that's what I did.

you can get to the mun and back without solar panels, and you don't have to be super pro to do so

[Leatherneck]

Sooo.. why exactly are you going for a job in spacecraft design?

If you can't hack this game, you can't hack the job IMO.

Kind of a harsh statement, as there are a lot of variables to consider. Maybe OP is a tad short in their history lessons? OP is comparing the starting capsule to the Gemini Program when it should be compared to Project Mercury, that had short missions, like 15 minutes with the longest one not even lasting 2 days!

(Side note, I'd not mind having a Gemini-esque capsule. between the start and when you get the Apollo-esque one)

Frankly, the reality of it is that in career mode, over the span of one week in game (Kerbal Time), you can basically cover (and probably surpass) most of the actual real life space programs. Skills aside, it doesn't take a player all that long to go from a craptastic rocket, to Mun and Minmus missions. In a month (Kerbal Time) I have put a space station in orbit over Kerbin, landed Kerbals nearly a dozen times on Mun, and completed a manned and unmanned Minmus mission. Some players have reported that they can pretty much open the entire tech tree in only a handful of missions. Think about that.

Yes, career mode and the tech tree needs work. However, what's the point of giving a player the tools for a prolonged space flight when they should be mastering getting something into orbit first? So much of the rest of the game is understanding those mechanics, because docking, going the Mun or anywhere for that matter hinges on what you learn with the first tier. Seriously, in those 15 minute missions, you can get really high levels of science doing very little. Between an orbit around the equator, and an orbit around the poles, I generated a ton of science. Add in just screwing around KSC, and there's even more science to gain. By then, plenty of missions just trying to aim re-entries for specific biomes for science, I had more than enough science to get solar panels before I even was in space long enough to need them.

I'm no Scott Manley, but by the time I was designing craft that realistically needed solar panels, I already had them unlocked.

[allmhuran]

Easy solution: Don't transmit in low tiers.

The problem the OP is having is probably more due to the lack of information on how to science rather than anything to do with the difficulty involved.

So for the OP and anyone else interested, here is the key to the mechanics of science to get you through the lower tiers:

The command pod can store one copy of any unique experimental result. A unique experimental result is the result of a particular activity, and, if the activity is biome dependent, in a particular biome.

For example, EVA reports when in low orbit are biome-dependent. So the EVA report while in low orbit over kerbin over the ocean is a different experiment from an EVA report while in low orbit over the grasslands. You can therefore simultaneously store both in the command pod at once. You do not have to transmit one to make room for the next.

There are about 8 biomes on Kerbin. This means that getting into Kerbin equatiorial orbit just once and returning can net you the following science when you land and recover the pod (in the order of collection):

1) Crew report while on the Launchpad - transmit, no problem with electricity since batteries are full

2) EVA report while on the Launchpad - store in pod

3) Crew report while flying over kerbin's shores (take report just after takeoff) - transmit, no problem with electricity since engine is running

4) Crew report while in Kerbin's upper atmosphere - transmit, no problem with electricity since engine is running

5) EVA report while in Kerbin's upper atmosphere (get out and do an EVA just before you cross the 70km threshold) - store in pod

6) EVA report in low orbit over Kerbin's water - store in pod

7) EVA report in low orbit over Kerbin's grasslands - store in pod

8) EVA report in low orbit over Kerbin's highlands - store in pod

9) EVA report in low orbit over Kerbin's mountains - store in pod

10) EVA report in low orbit over Kerbin's deserts - store in pod

11) EVA report in low orbit over Kerbin's shores - store in pod

12) Crew report wherever you land - no need to transmit, this is your last crew report so store it in the pod

13) Ground sample wherever you land - store in pod

14) EVA report wherever you land - store in pod

Note that only 3 transmissions are required (for the first three crew reports), and these are easy because your LVT30 will be providing power through your ascent. All of the rest can be stored in the command pod simultaneously and recovered when you land.

I can't remember the exact value of all this, but IIRC each low orbit EVA report is worth 8, so those alone should net you 48, more if you can also get the badlands and poles. Add on the crew reports and the ground sample and you should be pushing 70 - 80 science just for a first orbit.

Then go do the same on the Mun. It has 14 biomes and each EVA is worth 24 on return. Get yourself into near-polar orbit and let the Mun rotate underneath you to pick up as many as possible. A single flight to the Mun, without even landing, is worth a few hundred.

Edit: One final thing. Turn SAS off when you don't need it! SAS consumes power.

Edited November 4, 2013 by allmhuran

[Geoff-AU]

Kind of a harsh statement

yes, deliberately so because I have a strong aversion to dumbing things down. One of the things I really like about KSP is the difficulty level is pitched just right. You can make a mess of things or you can be successful. I don't think dumbing it down so that everybody is successful is the right way to go. You will stop some people from complaining it's too hard but others will find the game superficially easy and stop playing. They won't complain it's too basic they'll just get bored and stop.

The other thing to bear in mind is that career mode is brand new and the documentation and how-to guides haven't caught up yet. That's where the forum is great because people are posting info all the time as they learn. In that way it's a journey of discovery for everyone rather than giving them a canned solution with 6 easy steps to finishing career mode. Again, BORING!!!.

Ultimately, if you want help then you should say "guys, I'm having trouble staying aloft more than 1 or 2 orbits without losing power" and we can rattle off a list of things to look at. Being a keyboard warrior and saying the game sucks because you don't understand it and you're not willing to put in the time to learn anything or ask questions in a mature manner just makes you look like a kid chucking a tanty, and I'm not inclined to help that style of personality because it just provides positive reinforcement that it's an acceptable way to behave.

[stupid_chris]

Heya people

No need to get into a heated argument here. Else we might start handing out warnings/infraction without further warnings, and no one wants that. Let's just all keep our cool and let's keep a friendly and conversational tone

Edited November 4, 2013 by stupid_chris

[z26]

Hey, he kinda has a point here. I really dislike that he somehow felt like insulting people to get his point across, but right now, if you are a new player like me, unless you also love seeking documentation online like I do, the game is seriously unapproachable. Approachable isn't the same as easy btw (I love extra credits)

Lets say than without the wikis and videos, I wouldn't even know you needed to turn to get into orbit (let alone turn at 10km)

Since the player-made tutorials and articles are great, maybe they should be integrated in game.

[vexx32]

Yes, but one must needs remember that this game is far from complete. Documentation and tutorials are awesome, but trying to keep tutorials up to speed with the frequent changes would be a nightmare. A tutorial made only one or two versions ago can often have been made superfluous or completely useless by the intermediary updates :/

[GraviTykillz]

you can get to the mun and back without solar panels, and you don't have to be super pro to do so

Yes you can

[John FX]

So, from scanning the thread I have a solution. If a tutorial is made that explains science then that will fix things. Don`t change the tree to be easier, change the info on the tree so the tree is easier for new players...

[vexx32]

It's a good solution, but if they make it now, it'll only have to be re-done every update or two, which just takes valuable time away from development and pre-release testing. If it's going to exist, it's going to have to be made and maintained by players for now, I think.

[3mon]

What i did in the beggining of career mode to be able to actually transmit experiments was using several pods instead of one for the added battery. Also you get some nice additional torque.

[SRV Ron]

Simple Mun flyby, note conservation of fuel and power.

Return;

And, the craft that did the mission;

Later, I unlocked enough science to send probe landers;

This one is on Eve;

Plenty of help on the forum with tutorials and videos.Just a matter of going one step at a time and perfecting your skills.

[Leatherneck]

yes, deliberately so because I have a strong aversion to dumbing things down. One of the things I really like about KSP is the difficulty level is pitched just right. You can make a mess of things or you can be successful. I don't think dumbing it down so that everybody is successful is the right way to go. You will stop some people from complaining it's too hard but others will find the game superficially easy and stop playing. They won't complain it's too basic they'll just get bored and stop.

The other thing to bear in mind is that career mode is brand new and the documentation and how-to guides haven't caught up yet. That's where the forum is great because people are posting info all the time as they learn. In that way it's a journey of discovery for everyone rather than giving them a canned solution with 6 easy steps to finishing career mode. Again, BORING!!!.

Ultimately, if you want help then you should say "guys, I'm having trouble staying aloft more than 1 or 2 orbits without losing power" and we can rattle off a list of things to look at. Being a keyboard warrior and saying the game sucks because you don't understand it and you're not willing to put in the time to learn anything or ask questions in a mature manner just makes you look like a kid chucking a tanty, and I'm not inclined to help that style of personality because it just provides positive reinforcement that it's an acceptable way to behave.

Oh, I'm totally in the same boat as you, I oppose dumbing things down. I was just saying that the OP's approach to games might not mesh well to how the OP approaches real life. The logical answer to every problem is to complain it's broken when you don't understand it right? Complaining on the same forum that has tutorials clearly shows us nerds we have been doing it wrong. Wait... Okay, I see your point.

That's not the game's fault, it isn't the game's job to remind me to do things that should be routine, nor it is it the game's job to tell me that my design is terrible and going to explode mid-flight. Next the OP is going to complain that they ran out of fuel because some other unrelated space program never did.

Hell, I love the fact that I can make some great designs, and then it goes haywire because I forgot something, didn't do something right, etc. There's all sorts of things Last night for example, I was sending a probe to Moho. Had about 7 days until my window, so I figured I'd launch my probe, get it into orbit, take care of some other flights and time warp to my window. So my window rolls around, and my probe is reacting sluggishly because I forgot a SAS, and still had one stage to go before it was better, but playing in map mode so didn't think much of it. As a result I miss my window by a lot because of the SAS thing, so Duna has a window in 14 days so I figure I'll just change up my mission and I'll shoot another probe to Moho later. Duna's window rolls around and.... no response. wtf?!

Turns out, I was so preoccupied with what I was doing, being in map mode kept me from seeing that I forgot to deploy my solar panels...

Oops. On the plus side, now I can launch a new one that has SAS.

[Hunne]

This game is for *massive* nerds

nothing too hard for true nerds...

I discovered KSP back when it was 0.15 - up to this day I didn´t even manage to visit another planet...too many mods and the versions keep changing quite fast but I simply love this game just for being so challenging...

Games for the masses are far too easy nowadays...giving away 50 bucks for mostly just 6 hours of gameplay - that´s what you get!

Stick with it mate, when I started I had no clues about Homann transfers and the like...

You might want to check Scott Manley on YT, he provides superb tutorials (plus other infos) and is actually starting a new series concerning the career mode.

...oh, what I like most in 0.22 is the great music in the astronaut complex...can I get an OST?^^

[Geoff-AU]

Turns out, I was so preoccupied with what I was doing, being in map mode kept me from seeing that I forgot to deploy my solar panels...

Don't get me started on solar panels.. I sent maybe 4 or 5 unmanned probes to the Mun before realising the reason why I couldn't control them or fire their engines on approach was because the remote guidance unit had used up all the power. They were fine up until late on the intercept course and would die just before I needed to burn for Munar capture.

Further down the track I designed a probe with an Ion engine and a few large solar arrays.. which was all working swimmingly well on its way to reach Laythe until... Jool obscured the sun during a burn and ruined everything.

One thing I still haven't got my head around is gravity boosts. I've seen Scott Manley videos on how to zip around the solar system without using any fuel and I just can't figure out how he strings them together. You basically have to approach a planet at a 90 degree angle to get a decent boost (theoretical maximum is a 180 degree slingshot but that would be quite difficult to pull off). I've had a few happy coincidences in the Jool system that would have sent me to interstellar space but that wasn't my goal at the time..

[TUFOM]

In my opinion ksp has just right amount of difficulty. Buyed ksp 13. october 2013 & I have station in orbit (multipart), Flagged every planet & moon except Jool, Dres, Eeloo but flybys of them. Base in Laythe, science tree unlocked & 2000 additional science. Fully my own desing working SSTO. ATM exploring for anomalies in jool's moons. AND NO I don't use any mods! Tryed few & imo they made ksp boring.