Long March 9 more powerful than Saturn V?

[czokletmuss]

Long March 9 = CZ-9 on this picture

The new Long March 9 details were revealed by Liang Xiaohong, the Communist Party Chief at the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology (CALT), China’s largest rocket contractor. Vick at Global Security did an extensive review of Liang’s revelations. Liang outlined several new Long March versions, virtually all of them testing elements that would eventually find their way into the Long March 9 that has 4 million lb. more of liftoff thrust than the 7.5 million lb. thrust NASA Saturn V. Forty-three years ago this week a Saturn V propelled the Apollo 11 astronauts to the first manned landing on the Moon on July 20, 1969. The Long March 5 appears positioned in the development flow to function like the U. S. Saturn 1B rockets did in relation to the Saturn V in Apollo. That role was to use a powerful, but smaller launch vehicle to launch key elements of the program like the Apollo Command/Service modules and Lunar Modules for test in Earth orbit. There is one major difference with the Long March 5 however. It is powerful enough to launch a Shenzhou manned spacecraft on a lunar orbit flight, a mission the Saturn 1Bs could not duplicate. For the massive Long March 9, the Chinese have both an “Option A†oxygen/kerosene powered launcher and an “Option B oxygen/hydrogen rocket. The detailed specifications for both rocket concepts are at the bottom of this article.

Source: http://www.americaspace.com/?p=22881

So China is building its own SLS. Why would they need rocket more powerful than Saturn V? The answer seems to be obvious.

[drakesdoom]

I will believe the numbers when they perform a launch that needs those numbers.

[Crush]

You can't take everything the Chinese state propaganda publishes at face-value.

[czokletmuss]

Sure I can't and I don't. I wish I know Chinese, now I'm limited only to English articles about it and there aren't that much data - besides, Chinese space program resembles a lot old cold war Soviet program in its secrecy. Anyways, you can say what you want about CNSA but they have a clear vision and a plan how to realize it (or at least it seems like they do). NASA on the other hand...

[sjwt]

Well done, a good step in the right direction.. For those who miss-trust the details, all I can say is that good Chinese manufacturing is better then Good European manufacturing, and has been for over 10 years. Its just you have to be willing to pay for it.

On the design and improvement side, I have been nothing but impressed with how good Chinese companies are willing to listen to problems and deal with them when compared to leading European manufacturers.

[Faark]

So china plans to build a bigger rocket than the USA did 40 years ago? I'm not at all surprised? Its not really a challenge for a space agency to build such a rocket... once you have the funds. And our western countries sadly are not willing to pay for sth like that, opposed to china.

I don't see what that has to tdo with "better manufacturing" as posted above, despite flaming against Europe.

[czokletmuss]

So china plans to build a bigger rocket than the USA did 40 years ago? I'm not at all surprised?

Oh come on, it's not the point. The point is why they're building Saturn V-class rocket.

[Richy teh space man]

My guess would be that they're planning a manned moon trip, which they have said previously is on their agenda.

Either that or they plan on going beyond the moon, perhaps to Mars?

[NASAFanboy]

Long March 9 = CZ-9 on this picture

Source: http://www.americaspace.com/?p=22881

So China is building its own SLS. Why would they need rocket more powerful than Saturn V? The answer seems to be obvious.

Get this to our Congressmen. Then ask if they still support the SLS.

Now, otherwise, while I believe the Long March 9 could slightly match the Saturn V in thrust, such figures are obviously propaganda at best. I've seen the charts, the pictures, and the images. My conclusion?

It's better than the Saturn 1B, but not the Saturn V. But however, it is only one in a long line of rockets, and the last one will likely surpass the Saturn V and match the SLS. This should drum up congressional support to the SLS. Going to email my representatives the page and hope they support the ARM and SLS.

I really hate to say this, but I'm afraid another "undeclared" background space race is the only way NASA can get a direction. And, I also hate to say this, but despite Boldsns warning, it seems that NASA will most likely return to the Moon and establish a lunar base by 2023 (Almost all Republican Congressmen strangely support this bill) which would draw funds away from developing a Mars mission.

Otherwise, it's nice to see other nations getting to the Moon, and I would like to wish the best of

luck to China.

[magnemoe]

Oh come on, it's not the point. The point is why they're building Saturn V-class rocket.

Multiple reasons, going to the moon, launch an space station in few large pieces, launch multiple satellites at once, larger solar system projects like an Mars sample return.

Note that you have multiple heavy lifters coming the next years. SLS, falcon heavy and now long march 9.

[czokletmuss]

It's better than the Saturn 1B, but not the Saturn V. But however, it is only one in a long line of rockets, and the last one will likely surpass the Saturn V and match the SLS. This should drum up congressional support to the SLS. Going to email my representatives the page and hope they support the ARM and SLS

I really hate to say this, but I'm afraid another "undeclared" background space race is the only way NASA can get a direction. And, I also hate to say this, but despite Boldsns warning, it seems that NASA will most likely return to the Moon and establish a lunar base by 2023 (Almost all Republican Congressmen strangely support this bill) which would draw funds away from developing a Mars mission.

I don't think SLS is a good idea from an economic standpoint but its not financed from my taxes so it's not really my business. Seeing how political tension between USA and China slowly increases (which is only natural - one is a superpower and the other wants to be one too) the new Red Scare/Space Race is not completely improbable. I'm all for more effort and money put into the space exploration, so I see nothing wrong in it.

Otherwise, it's nice to see other nations getting to the Moon, and I would like to wish the best of luck to China.

Definitely! Americans or Chinese, whoever is going to land on the Moon next is going to be a human being - and that's what's most important

[hotmailcompany52]

Definitely! Americans or Chinese, whoever is going to land on the Moon next is going to be a human being - and that's what's most important

*Chanting* Space race! Space race!

Anyway, I think it would be awesome for my generation to see a lunar base or even just another man on the moon!

[mythbusters844]

Liftoff thrust doesn't matter much. The Energia had a bit more liftoff thrust than the Saturn V, but 20 metric tons less payload to orbit. It's like strapping on more Mainsails to your first stage and adding a bit more fuel, or seriously adding MOAR BOOSTERS.

I don't think SLS is a good idea from an economic standpoint but its not financed from my taxes so it's not really my business. Seeing how political tension between USA and China slowly increases (which is only natural - one is a superpower and the other wants to be one too) the new Red Scare/Space Race is not completely improbable. I'm all for more effort and money put into the space exploration, so I see nothing wrong in it.

Definitely! Americans or Chinese, whoever is going to land on the Moon next is going to be a human being - and that's what's most important

It would be awesome to have another space race

[czokletmuss]

Liftoff thrust doesn't matter much. The Energia had a bit more liftoff thrust than the Saturn V, but 20 metric tons less payload to orbit

Data from article says that LM-5 will have 130t to LEO.

It would be awesome to have another space race

I think I can agree with that

BTW, on NASAWatch.com there are few new links concerning China in space: http://nasawatch.com/archives/2013/11/is-china-in-spa.html

[ecat]

Good luck China.

It's not about building a bigger rocket, it's having the will to do so.

Sitting here in the UK chatting to people from Europe, US, all around the world I like to think this is the beginning of the end of nationalism. Some don't like this, politicians especially as the call to national pride is a powerful weapon at their disposal, but it is a necessary causality if we are to thrive as a species and maybe one day get off this rock.

[Kryten]

It should really be pointed that this is stuff published by the main chinese rocket developer (CAST) themselves, on a proposal they've made to the government: it's not a funded project yet, and it's not at all certain it ever will be.

Data from article says that LM-5 will have 130t to LEO.

LM-5 is the heavy-lift rocket they're developing right now, it's roughly in the same range as the Atlas V or Proton (~25 tons to LEO). This proposal is 'LM-9'.

[czokletmuss]

LM-5 is the heavy-lift rocket they're developing right now, it's roughly in the same range as the Atlas V or Proton (~25 tons to LEO). This proposal is 'LM-9'.

Of course it is, I just messed up the number - sorry!

[p3asant]

By the time Nasa arrives at Mars, the planet will no longer be red only by name.

[NASAFanboy]

By the time Nasa arrives at Mars, the planet will no longer be red only by name.

While I still believe that NASA will most likely make it to Mars by the 2030's, I still believe that it will likely be the United States that takes the first steps on the red planet, instead of China. Faced with ongoing public fear of China's growth, powerful political allies in both parties, and extreme support by all major 2016 candidates, the SLS will extremely likely survive (Along with the reasons stated in my thread, of how the ARM takes place close enough for it to happen in term of said president, whih would provide tons of good PR; after all, no one destroys a fruit when it is almost ripe).

NASA has reassessed its Mars plan, and will stick with the Constellation vision for Mars, ultilizing the Mars Transfer Vehicle and quickly establishing a base on Mars by late 2030's or early 2040's. No nation has he deep-space faring capabilities of the US, though China will in the future.

I wonder if the Chinese will be allowed at the NASA Mars Base at 2040. Hopefully, they will. Who knows? Maybe the Chinese will do a Sputnik moment, causing NASA to build a Mars colony before tensions cool down and both superpowers build a massive international space colony in Mars orbit

[Nuke]

thing is with the booming chinese economy, they are the ones who are poised to get to mars (or return to the moon) first. nasa could do it if it had the funding, but i dont see it happening.

[NASAFanboy]

thing is with the booming chinese economy, they are the ones who are poised to get to mars (or return to the moon) first. nasa could do it if it had the funding, but i dont see it happening.

Yeah, but they have skyrocketing crime rates and severe internal corruption, leading a trade-off. NASA has the funding for Orion and SLS (Due to strong political allies), but the other divisions are not funded well.

NASA is being given more funds for Orion and SLS than in the funding requests. That's a good sign.

[Mr Shifty]

NASA has the funding for Orion and SLS (Due to strong political allies), but the other divisions are not funded well.

What does it mean to say that the other divisions aren't funded well? Space sciences gets about $5 billion a year. The ISS gets more than $3 billion per year. Exploration (which includes the SLS and Orion) gets about $2.7 billion. It's a big chunk, but not the biggest.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/740427main_NASAFY2014SummaryBriefFinal.pdf

[NASAFanboy]

What does it mean to say that the other divisions aren't funded well? Space sciences gets about $5 billion a year. The ISS gets more than $3 billion per year. Exploration (which includes the SLS and Orion) gets about $2.7 billion. It's a big chunk, but not the biggest.

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/740427main_NASAFY2014SummaryBriefFinal.pdf

ISS includes Commercial Crew, and is internationally funded. Space Science is split up into many different divisions, which, in truth, means they are getting less funds than the SLS/Orion.

The SLS/Orion is one of the most well-funded programs NASA has right now. Sure, it has 2.7 billion, but that's huge for a single program.

[Mr Shifty]

ISS includes Commercial Crew, and is internationally funded.

ISS is funded under its very own line item. Commercial Crew is funded under Exploration, which also includes SLS and the MPCV. ISS gets $3 billion per year by itself, from NASA alone, not including funds from other space agencies.

Space Science is split up into many different divisions, which, in truth, means they are getting less funds than the SLS/Orion.

The issue here is that you make broad generalizations that are either unsupported by data or are so vague as to be meaningless. The Science budget as a whole is the single largest part of NASA's budget, followed by Space Operations, then Exploration (which includes the SLS and CCdev.) It's hard to parse the budget to figure out NASA's priorities, but it's simply untrue that NASA's other operations are being sidelined in favor of the SLS. It's also untrue that NASA's budgets are low; they are, in fact, historically high (excepting the anomalous Apollo years.) The biggest takeaway I see in the budget is that NASA, like any conservative organization, prioritizes operations over development and planning. Hence the ISS getting a huge and increasing chunk of change every year.

Yes, there is a ton of money being spent on the SLS and Orion. NASA is a big organization, though. It has quite a few irons in the fire. And thank god: how much less would we know about the solar system without all those planetary sciences robotic missions? How much less about the universe without the astrophysics telescopes? There's a certain sense in which we subvert the acquisition of actual knowledge when we focus on putting boots on alien soil.

[czokletmuss]

There's a certain sense in which we subvert the acquisition of actual knowledge when we focus on putting boots on alien soil.

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. Alas, political stunts are necessary to get money and public interest in the first place.