(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Ziv]

I just want to know, how do you DO this? Whenever I try to make a gigantic rocket, it falls apart. When I succeed, I don't have enough fuel.

You can launch the ship in many parts, dock in orbit, and refuel before going to JOOL. But there was some solution which was launched as one big ship and there was no refueling.

Alternatively use NovaPunch, that mod has many additional size for fuel tanks and engines, even huge ones which is equal to 10+ orange tanks and 10+ MainSails.

(for the oringinal Level 1-2-3-Jeb you cannot use modded engines with Isp 800 or higher)

[Himynameisjake]

I just want to know, how do you DO this? Whenever I try to make a gigantic rocket, it falls apart. When I succeed, I don't have enough fuel.

Try this on for size.

I think you'll find it pretty useful.

[naturalbornidiot]

I registered just to say that the kethane version of this challenge is a nice idea. Giving it a go now

[SSSPutnik]

Good luck naturalbornidiot.

[chicknblender]

What does the "no refueling" rule mean for the 1st Level Sub-Challenge? Is it OK to refuel your lander from your interplanetary ship? Is it OK to send fuel pods to different moons and rendezvous with them, as long as everything started as one launch? I'm obviously confused.

[Kasuha]

What does the "no refueling" rule mean for the 1st Level Sub-Challenge? Is it OK to refuel your lander from your interplanetary ship? Is it OK to send fuel pods to different moons and rendezvous with them, as long as everything started as one launch? I'm obviously confused.

As far as I understand it, it just means you are not allowed to send any further ships from Kerbin. You can launch one ship with registered mass and you can do whatever you want with whatever is bundled with it.

[chicknblender]

As far as I understand it, it just means you are not allowed to send any further ships from Kerbin. You can launch one ship with registered mass and you can do whatever you want with whatever is bundled with it.

This is going to be fun.

[immelman]

After seeing your reddit posts, this is a submission I'm looking forward to seeing...

[Ziv]

What does the "no refueling" rule mean for the 1st Level Sub-Challenge? Is it OK to refuel your lander from your interplanetary ship? Is it OK to send fuel pods to different moons and rendezvous with them, as long as everything started as one launch? I'm obviously confused.

Hi, this sub-challenge is about the lowest mass on the launch pad, and one launch only. At least one Kerbal (which travels in a closed pod from Kerbin to Jool and back) land on all the moons and go back. You do with that ship whatever you like.

So this is a hardcore optimization challenge, which will drive you crazy when you won't have the fuel to go back to Kerbin!

[technion]

Yep, FAR is giving very, very small drag, for me this drag looks like cheat, on Kerbin you can easily achieve orbital speed at 10-11 km

As someone who's playing with - if this was a spaceplane competition I'd probably call it a cheat. Otherwise, it's anything but.

As soon as you start talking about the large, complex rockets used in this competition, FAR makes things immensely more complicated. I had a perfectly working rocket this morning. All I added was a sr. docking port on top, and a nosecone on top of that. Now the drag is uneven, and I've spent nearly the whole morning trying to work out how to bring it into orbit.

Asymmetric rockets, where you simply add a counterweight on one side to even things out, are now immensely difficulty, because you also need to get the drag even. This whole challenge is a lot more difficult with FAR imo.

[SSSPutnik]

Id have to agree FAR makes it harder. Causing issues for me so much I'm considering uninstalling it. All my normal aero brake altitudes have to be relearned and drag issues...

Also have to add mass such as nose cones, fairings.

[Jasonden]

Here's a minimum-mass entry for the Jool-5 Kethane subchallenge: 16.9t. My tricks: (1) refuel at Minmus on the way out, (2) asymmetric engine layout to compensate for heavy Kethane drill on the side.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

This was very nearly an SSTO -- I think that you could do it as an SSTO for under 40t.

[SSSPutnik]

Pretty cool, but, isn't it kind of cheating to send SATs first?

[Jasonden]

Pretty cool, but, isn't it kind of cheating to send SATs first?

Hmm. Well, I didn't think so. I had a couple of sats already around Laythe and Vall, so I finished the job with 3 around the outer ones. This is in my Career game, so I already had some Kethane scanning going on.

[SSSPutnik]

Ziv can figure that out, but it saves mass by knowing where your Kethane is.

(Even if only by 1xscanner).

You need to tally your points.

[Ziv]

Here's a minimum-mass entry for the Jool-5 Kethane subchallenge: 16.9t. My tricks: (1) refuel at Minmus on the way out, (2) asymmetric engine layout to compensate for heavy Kethane drill on the side.

http://imgur.com/a/WpuzL

This was very nearly an SSTO -- I think that you could do it as an SSTO for under 40t.

Jasonden: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Kethane mission in the low-mass version! Nice solution with the Minmus refueling, I'm already on my way with the SSTO version where I did the same. But I didn't want to go for minimal mass there so it is more like a big station rather than a little ship.

I was double checking your Bop/Pol - Tylo course, I guess that's the key part of this kind of mission with the highest DeltaV requriements (about 150+300+1000+3000?), I saw you brought some spare Kethane too, good idea. And also the Laythe departure can be tricky because of the atmosphere.

About the Kethane scanner issue: yes, the story of this challenge says it is the first time there so scanning is needed at every moon. But I didn't mention it under the rules and also it wouldn't be fair of me not to accept this entry because of this. I guess a scanner would be +0.1 tons and it could be easily placed on your ship (on the top), so I suggest to list this mission with 17 tons in the Hall of Fame. I hope it's okay for you.

Nice job, thank you for participating!

Edited March 23, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

Everybody who have done the JOOL-5 Kethane mission has earned the JOOL-5 Kethane badge and may add to his/her Signature:

to do this: Settings -> Edit Signature and add this line without the spaces after the two '[' brackets:

[ URL=http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/57197-THE-ULTIMATE-JOOL-5-CHALLENGE-land-Kerbals-on-all-moons-and-return-in-one-big-misson][ IMG]http://i.imgur.com/l8NYzJN.png

[Jasonden]

I was double checking your Bop/Pol - Tylo course, I guess that's the key part of this kind of mission with the highest DeltaV requriements (about 150+300+1000+3000?), I saw you brought some spare Kethane too, good idea. And also the Laythe departure can be tricky because of the atmosphere.

Yeah, The Tylo landing was the part that I thought was going to drive my dV requirements. But it was actually the Laythe departure that was the trickiest -- hence my needing to land at high altitude to get out of there. YMMV of course depending on your choice of engine.

About the Kethane scanner issue: yes, the story of this challenge says it is the first time there so scanning is needed at every moon. But I didn't mention it under the rules and also it wouldn't be fair of me not to accept this entry because of this. I guess a scanner would be +0.1 tons and it could be easily placed on your ship (on the top), so I suggest to list this mission with 17 tons in the Hall of Fame. I hope it's okay for you.

I knew there would be dangers in going first Your solution is very generous; thanks for accomodating my entry.

[Kerolyov]

Really impressed with your gravity assists. Never tried anything like your Kerbin - Eve - Kerbin -Jool assist. How did you work out the phase angles of Eve, Kerbin and Jool relative to each to get this to work? I'm assuming you can't just do this anytime?

dV/Route:

Kerbin low orbit -> Eve gravity assist -> Kerbin gravity assist -> Kerbin gravity assist again -> Jool aerobraking = 1255 m/s (1120 m/s to get Eve(three burns on Kerbin periapsis), 110 to raise sun apoapsis on first Kerbin gravity assist, some small 0.6-12 m/s correction burns)

Edited March 24, 2014 by Kerolyov

[SV-ESK]

Really impressed with your gravity assists. Never tried anything like your Kerbin - Eve - Kerbin -Jool assist. How did you work out the phase angles of Eve, Kerbin and Jool relative to each to get this to work? I'm assuming you can't just do this anytime?

First, put craft to 70Km Kerbin orbit and warp time to Kerbin-Eve launch window. Plot Eve intercept and look how it can change your Sun orbit, PreciseNode(numpad adjusting maneuvers, conics mode and samples) helps a lot. You can not set Kerbin as target, when you are in Kerbin SOI, so put probe to Sun orbit near Kerbin and set it as target instead. Thus you can determine can Eve thow you back to Kerbin or not without performing maneuvers, it saves a lot of time.

F5.

Go to quicksave.sfs and search "UT = " . This is universe time, in seconds. Change it, and go F9. It acts as an timewarping but costs less real time.

Determine again, can Eve thow you back to Kerbin or not.

F5 - editing UT - F9.

F5 - editing UT - F9.

F5 - editing UT - F9, untill you found desired window.

So you found Kerbin->Eve->Kerbin->[apoapsis near Dres orbit] maneuver.

Look to the orbital period:

Kerbin's orbital period is 106 d 12 h.

Your ship's orbital period after first Kerbin gravity assist must be exactly three times more. So ship will make one turn around Sun. Kerbin will make three. And they will meet again for gravity assist, that will throw apoapsis very high for Jool intercept. Jool position relative to other planets does not matter.

Learn it:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/54294-Gravity-Assists?highlight=gravity+assist

Edited March 24, 2014 by SV-ESK

[Mesklin]

Here's a minimum-mass entry for the Jool-5 Kethane subchallenge: 16.9t. My tricks: (1) refuel at Minmus on the way out

Jasonden, it was a brilliant idea about first refueling at Minmus before Jool departure. I tried to make light craft with SSTO funcionality for Kethane challenge but I was stoped by next problem: too low level of fuel after Kerbin ascent. Now I am seeing possibilites for create light SSTO for make full Jool moon's voyage. Edited March 25, 2014 by Mesklin

[SSSPutnik]

I was working today on a SSTO, its freaking hard.

By the time you add a decent crew complement, Kethane gear, Jool penetrators etc etc... At one stage I got to about 330t takeoff weight and I threw it away in disgust.

It was kind of majestic though....

[Speeding Mullet]

Great minimum mass challenge entry Mesklin, I think I'll be ready for a trimmed down mission after coaxing my monstrosity around the Joolian system, well done!

Hope all are well, I've completed the write up of the next section of my Kethane entry which is Bop operations if anyone wants to have a look it's surely one of the more out there ships, thankfully it's much less laggy than it was at the start!

[Ziv]

Great minimum mass challenge entry Mesklin, I think I'll be ready for a trimmed down mission after coaxing my monstrosity around the Joolian system, well done!

Hope all are well, I've completed the write up of the next section of my Kethane entry which is Bop operations if anyone wants to have a look it's surely one of the more out there ships, thankfully it's much less laggy than it was at the start!

Awesome designs and fun stuff there! Your Kerbals are really reckless! I wonder what other circumstances will it drive them into!? Keep us updated!!

[Tangle]

(May I suggest a new variant? If so, here it is. If not I will delete this post.)

As whoever is reading this may or may not know, Alternis Kerbol is a mod by NovaSilisko that moves the planets around. The most prominent movement is moving Jool to Kerbin's orbit, changing its color, heightening its atmosphere, and putting Kerbin in orbit around it. Now, this makes the Jool-5 challenge roughly ten times simpler. So I thought, "How about we have a challenge for Alternis Jool too? So here it is.

Rules!

You must have the Alternis Kerbol mod. Otherwise, what's the point?

That is literally the only rule.

Scoring!

Scoring is judged by microplanet in the Jool System.

Kerbin

The planet you're expected to start on. If you have Extraplanetary Launchpads, then you can circumvent that.

Mothership

Assembled in LKO: +5 points.

Assembled between 200 and 1000 km: +6-14, depending on altitude.

Single-Launch: +10 points if mothership, +2 points if small ship.

Flotilla: +30 points. Flotillas are hard, especially for such short distances.

Comms Net: +30 points. Bop is in geo orbit now!

Scanned for Ore/Kethane: +20 points.

Bop

Either the only moon of Kerbin or one of the smallest moons of Jool. Orbiting Bop is very screwy.

Entire ship in orbit around it: +20 points.

Small ship in orbit: +6 points.

Small ship on surface: +5 points.

Manned Deployed Lander on surface: +10 points.

Comm net: +60 points.

Extraplanetary deployed from here: +16 points.

Scanned for Ore/Kethane: +80 points.

Base: +40 points.

Space Station: +60 points.

Rovers: +10 points each

Pol

Normally sized. Still very bumpy!

Small ship on surface: +8 Points.

Manned Deployed Lander on surface: +9 points.

Comms net: +80 Points.

Extraplanetary Deployed from here: +10 points.

Scanned for Ore/Kethane: +40 points.

Base: +30 points.

Space Station: +50 points.

Rovers: +5 points each

Mun

Still normally sized.

Small Ship on surface: +6 points.

Manned Deployed Lander on surface: +8 points.

Comms Net: +40 points.

Extraplanetary Deployed from here: +10 points.

Scanned: +20 points.

Base: +26 Points

Space Station: +40 points.

Rovers: +5 points each

Laythe

Same size, but prettier!

Small ship on surface: +30 points.

Manned Deployed Lander on surface: +20 points.

Comms Net: +30 points.

Extraplanetary Deployed from here: +60 points.

Scanned: +30 points.

Base: +40 points.

Space station: +40 points.

Planes added for flight: +20 points each

Rovers: +5 points each

Minmus

Smaller, orange, and a doozy to get to!

Small ship on surface: +20 points.

Manned Deployed Lander on surface: +20 points.

Whole ship in orbit: +60 points.

Comms net: +80 points.

Extraplanetary deployed from here: +10 points.

Scanned: +20 points.

Base: +60 points.

Space Station: +100 points.

Rovers: +5 points each

Adding Kerbals

Add 10 points per kerbal aboard for: Small ship on surface, Manned Deployed Lander, Whole ship in orbit, Kerbin's Mothership tab, Base, and space station.

Records go here... at some point.