(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[chicknblender]

Aaw, I was getting comfy in that first place - Congratulations!!!

I want to mention though that in 23.5, the enigines were nerfed considerably - an ion lander for Vall was not possible with the old engines ...

Thanks man. You are right though; the improved ions make comparing our missions pretty unfair.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

I have given up on the crew transfer SSTO spaceplane idea... found that the mothership is no so big it's causing a *little bit* of lag... and it didn't help that on the last go I managed to crash into the mothership while doing the de-orbit burn.... D'oh!

So just gonna do a regular rocket transfer ship, which will actually give a little more room to get all the kerbals that are not needed for the mission...

[SSSPutnik]

Mission update:

Arrived Jool, aerobraked. Setup Laythe intercept, aerobraked again. Deployed satellite and got nice circular orbits done.

First lander, "Far Reach" set off with rover base and unlike most Kerbals missions, it went smooth! Landed at Kethane target first go!

Rover deployed, mined and refueled shuttle.

Rover with 4 Kerbals are staying. They went for a drive to a nice flat area near the beach 6km away and set up the base. The beach area is suitable for future landings.

Shuttle departed and docked back at the Osperus III, again, on first attempt!

The second shuttle is about to depart to Vall or Bop, not decided yet. I think Vall.

Image Album for Laythe

Edited May 18, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[Patupi]

OK, I decided to try for the Jool-5 Challenge, despite computer limitations, and so far am about half way through the mission.

Here is the mission report

I wanted to do a complete mission, no refueling, no staging, even on the landers! Well, so far with my heavy SSTO lander slowing the mothership down I've got part way through and am getting low on fuel so I DO need a refueling mission Ah well, This is my first attempt to land on Tylo and I did it with no staging, landing or take off! That's worth something!

This mission is 'parts mod free', ie all I use are things like Alarm clock, Mechjeb and Editor extensions etc. No parts mods packs at all, and the only graphical mod I used was Hot Rockets. I want to do the texture replacer etc to get better pictures... but my machine isn't playing nice. It won't recognize my graphics card (or any graphics card it seems) and anything too intensive slow the computer to a crawl. I also decided to only use the new 23.5 advanced rockets to launch things from Kerbin (so I could minimize parts count) because they are a little overpowered otherwise. I did think of using the new, heavy singe engine bell 3.75m engine for the universal lander, but it just seemed too powerful. Skippers were good enough anyway.

Mothership + Booster + Lander:

This mission is to go to the Jebediah level, using science probes to collect science from all the moons and landing four Kerbals on each moon as well. Right now I've only landed on Tylo and Pol.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Patupi

[Ziv]

Mission update:

Arrived Jool, aerobraked. Setup Laythe intercept, aerobraked again. Deployed satellite and got nice circular orbits done.

First lander, "Far Reach" set off with rover base and unlike most Kerbals missions, it went smooth! Landed at Kethane target first go!

Rover deployed, mined and refueled shuttle.

Rover with 4 Kerbals are staying. They went for a drive to a nice flat area near the beach 6km away and set up the base. The beach area is suitable for future landings.

Shuttle departed and docked back at the Osperus III, again, on first attempt!

The second shuttle is about to depart to Vall or Bop, not decided yet. I think Vall.

Image Album for Laythe

https://moc-per.micromine.com/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=4e9d0dcffa3302c075340d3c476592c1&download

https://moc-per.micromine.com/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=eb31775c6282ea0d801fa5e77ea7f6c4&download

https://moc-per.micromine.com/owncloud/public.php?service=files&t=f2be9d75ec2d0ad556020366125f01ef&download

Very nice looking ship and rover!

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Update; crew transferred off (and landed back at KSC on the ramp up to the launchpad!) and a little bit of fuel transferred about the fuel tanks...

And away to Jool we go!

Screenshots to follow soon....

EDIT: Even though I only have a TWR of .38, the four Skipper engines are proving their worth - only a 10 minute burn instead of a couple of hours using Nerva's!!!

Edited May 18, 2014 by Cmdr. Arn1e

[Patupi]

For those that don't want to click onto yet another page to see my full (so far) report here's the IMGUR album for the Tylo landing for my mission. The other sections are on the page I linked in my previous post.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

[SSSPutnik]

My Jool injection burn took 10 hours realtime.

[Progressm]

Nice work catching that lander on the suborbital trajectory! Not a lot of room for error there, heh.

[Patupi]

Well, given the gravity (groan!) of the situation I wanted to meet up with the mothership quickly so timed the launch carefully, thus it was on hand nearby when I muffed the orbital insertion. Still, wasted a bit of fuel on racing towards, then matching velocity. I'm just glad I didn't crash on my first attempt on Tylo! I've been to Jool so many times before but never landed. I've skimmed by in orbit before but that's it. Oh, and in this mission I did one landing just before the one in the mission log... and realized when I was down on the surface I'd forgotten to bring a probe for science! *DOH!* Thus reload and try again. So I guess that was my second landing, not first really, but both worked out OK.

[pedorsf]

Something I have been working on.

The launch will probably happen tomorrow

Edited May 19, 2014 by pedorsf

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Something I have been working on.

[snipl]

The launch will probably happen tomorrow

Interesting looking craft, multi-lander design?

[loch.ness]

Considering attempting this, I'm currently preparing for my first every Jool mission. I'll have another ship concurrent to this one headed for a long-term survey of Laythe. The only interaction I intend between the two ships is having the Challenge ship drop a space space-plane off for the survey mission (since I'd be carrying 2 and would only need 1 for the challenge).

I have a couple questions on Mods: Questionable parts I'm currently using: Porkworks inflatable centrifuge - basically a hitchhiker but bulkier, more prone to bending, and a little heavier - but more comfortable for the kerbals on those long transfer flights.

Northseeker Service Compartments: small tubes for hiding batteries, MechJeb, and RCS pieces inside of. Aesthetic only - no functional benifit.

Near Future Propulsion Electronics, Namely: KRQ 1x4 high efficiency solar pannels 1/4 the weight of a gigantor, 1/2 the efficency.

Also CAP-106 Capacitors - used mostly for looks but could provide low weight augmentation to ion engines.

Other mods installed and not part of this mission: Station Science, Kethane, Visual Enhancements, Texture Replacer, Chatterer, Kerb Paint

Approved Mods which might get used LLL (currently not used) and KW Rocketry (currently in use but being phased out of future crafts (because I plan to switch to KSO at .24)

Currently only my outer-moon landers use the Near Future parts, and they could be removed without much hassle if a problem. I'm not good enough at this game to plan things for what is "the best choice' I'm still playing almost entirely for aesthetics right now.

Currently still very much in the planning stage so I'll ask more questions as they come up.

My Tylo lander concept has a Delta V of 6608 right now TWR 1.81 on landing stage - 1.51 on initial take off and/or touch down stage and 2.64 on the final stage. Tests done: Ladder access (after discarding decent stage) - works on Kerbin. Lander can launch on its own and reach orbit around kerbin through stages (probably not a very valid test).

Current re-design for my interplanetary mothership is looking odd, its looking like my interplanetary transfer stage might wind up getting parked at Jool as a fuel depot while my CSM (and tug) detaches to pull landers to/from their target orbits. Will be playing around with some design changes to meet this mission instead of the original intended one (go to Laythe and maybe the outer moons and come back).

With 6608 on my Tylo lander might it be possible to get either a command seat or another lander can on it to be in shape for a level 2 challenge, and my command ship definitely has crew capacity for a level 3 challenge (Delta V is another thing entirely). - I can make the Delta V change to almost 7k by changing the staging, but the first half of the landing stage would only have a .90 TWR while the second would be 1.21.

My Laythe plane is still being tested, it was being very troublesome on landings, I added parachutes to it and that actually seemed to fix the problem, takes off very well and I'm pretty sure as a better pilot I'd land it without them. will try a few more configurations before I settle on it though.

I'll post more specifics as I get this set up. Once I've got the landers designed and tested and the ship's final configuration set I'll post pictures and stats and start a mission report for orbital construction (with some entries from the R&D logs). Will need to decide on my Jool V team and my Laythe exploration team separately.

[SSSPutnik]

Sounds good loch.ness. The near future ions may be a problem but that's up to Ziv.

The Tylo lander sounds like a decent design. Like to see some images.

[Whovian]

I'm planning to try this challenge with TAC, FAR, and DRE installed; I'll try to limit mods which make it easier to KW, KSPX, B9, and maybe Procedural Parts just for the heatshields and life support tanks or the occasional Novapunch structural part. If I must, I could probably do this with only stock, TAC, and DRE parts. First level, of course, cos life support's going to be difficult otherwise.

Once the "legit" mission is done, I plan to attempt it SSTJ (single stage to Jool) mothership style; I'll probably need to enlist the help of Near Future Propulsion or KSPI if that's okay. Not quite legit, but I figured I'd do it anyway just for the sheer impressiveness of a single-stage mothership with the landers as cargo. If I manage this, it'll use B9 quite heavily.

In both, I'll have about 70 mods installed, but I certainly won't be using them all.

Also, what's the policy on basing designs on other entries? I'm thinking about basically copying a couple lander designs with a couple tweaks; is this okay?

Edited May 19, 2014 by Whovian

[8MMW]

Also, what's the policy on basing designs on other entries? I'm thinking about basically copying a couple lander designs with a couple tweaks; is this okay?

I think designing from a scratch by yourself is what gives the most joy in this game, especially if it gets to work or explode or both.

On the other hand, we can often learn some new design tricks from others. Even if you copy nearly an entire landing structure from someone, I think the person will be happy their own design is worth copying (or improved), rather than be angry at you for copying. As it is said, "Imitation is the best form of flattery".

So whatever feels alright to you should be OK.

Edited May 19, 2014 by 8MMW

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

I think designing from a scratch by yourself is what gives the most joy in this game, especially if it gets to work or explode or both.

On the other hand, we can often learn some new design tricks from others. Even if you copy nearly an entire landing structure from someone, I think the person will be happy their own design is worth copying (or improved), rather than be angry at you for copying. As it is said, "Imitation is the best form of flattery".

I'd agree - I have to admit that there are certain design aspects that I have emulated, if not downright copied - the 90 degree drop tanks on my mothership, for example, were first thought of by someone else, who moaned that due to weight he could only use the half Jumbo-64 2.5m tanks. I added to his design by using Jr docking ports to hold the drop tanks to each other as well as using the Snr's to attach to the mothership, and it held like a dream during my Kerbin escape burn, just a little bit of bending back from the direction of travel, which was no problem whatsoever

So, I'd say feel free to 'borrow' certain design aspects, but to use your own overall design... and above all else, use what suits your type of gamestyle! (It's no ise copying someone elses' desing, then finding out how hard it is to control, or you forgot an all-important part!)

Last tip for the people new to this challenge; LADDERS! cannot emphasize this enough; Laythe and Tylo without ladders will mean the end of your mission/adventure... (been getting lots of tips myself, thanks to some of the other peope who have been re-doing the challenge in a slightly different way, or are doing the Kethane version now...)

[Ziv]

I have a couple questions on Mods: Questionable parts I'm currently using: Porkworks inflatable centrifuge - basically a hitchhiker but bulkier, more prone to bending, and a little heavier - but more comfortable for the kerbals on those long transfer flights.

Northseeker Service Compartments: small tubes for hiding batteries, MechJeb, and RCS pieces inside of. Aesthetic only - no functional benifit.

Near Future Propulsion Electronics, Namely: KRQ 1x4 high efficiency solar pannels 1/4 the weight of a gigantor, 1/2 the efficency.

Also CAP-106 Capacitors - used mostly for looks but could provide low weight augmentation to ion engines.

Other mods installed and not part of this mission: Station Science, Kethane, Visual Enhancements, Texture Replacer, Chatterer, Kerb Paint

Approved Mods which might get used LLL (currently not used) and KW Rocketry (currently in use but being phased out of future crafts (because I plan to switch to KSO at .24)

Currently only my outer-moon landers use the Near Future parts, and they could be removed without much hassle if a problem. I'm not good enough at this game to plan things for what is "the best choice' I'm still playing almost entirely for aesthetics right now.

The basic thing about the modded parts that they cannot give you any advantage. So if the Porkworks inflatable centrifuge is 4 kerbals too but bigger and heavier then it's allowed. Aestethic parts are okay too if they don't have engines/fuels/etc but only dead weight.

And similarly if a solar panel is 1/4 of the weight of a gigantor but 1/2 the efficiency then it's an advantage so it is prohibited.

CAP-106 Capacitors: please link this one, I didn't find it.

I don't really know Near Future parts, can you link a list of them with the details? But I heard they are stronger/better then the stock and if so they cannot be used.

Or if you want to use parts mods which has advantage over the stock parts and you don't worry about being on the Level 1-2-3-Jeb then let's go for it and it will go on the Freestyle category.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

I'm planning to try this challenge with TAC, FAR, and DRE installed; I'll try to limit mods which make it easier to KW, KSPX, B9, and maybe Procedural Parts just for the heatshields and life support tanks or the occasional Novapunch structural part. If I must, I could probably do this with only stock, TAC, and DRE parts. First level, of course, cos life support's going to be difficult otherwise.

Also, what's the policy on basing designs on other entries? I'm thinking about basically copying a couple lander designs with a couple tweaks; is this okay?

Please link the mods because I don't know all of them. TAC and FAR is okay, I don't know what DRE is.

I think copying is not a problem but of course that doesn't impress us too much. And for me it takes time to check all the missions in-depth for acceptance so I wouldn't be happy with a lot of similar ships just to get yourself on the wall...

[Whovian]

DRE's Deadly Reentry - I'll be using the heat shields and some decouplers. I think they're slightly less massive than the stock ones, but ships look somewhat ugly if I'm using the stock ones, so ...

After nearly finishing my transfer stage along with the landers, it seems the only modded parts beyond stock, TAC, and DRE parts are a few of the radial mounts from Novapunch. I could probably emulate them out of girders if required; they're basically radially mounted things with a node at the bottom. I'm definitely not going for minimalism here; the transfer stage weighs about 75 tons.

Come to think of it, since I'll be using solar panels, I'll probably need a couple radiators from KSPI. No worries - they're the only KSPI things I'll be using and dealing with just them makes the game very slightly harder.

The other mods I'll be using are pretty much utility ones like VOID (basically Mechjeb's readouts without having to add on parts) and Kerbal Alarm Clock (which I trust you're familiar with.) I'll have mods too numerous to list such as Kerbal Attachment System and cBBp's Dragon installed, though they won't affect the craft in any way - if there are any mods not mentioned in this post which are anything beyond utilities and the ones you specifically okayed, I'll ask about them before submitting my entry.

Here's to praying I can get back to the mothership in half a day so I don't have to deal with adding life support to the landers.

BTW, the Near Future engines have higher isp and around the same thrust (between 1.75 and 3.0 for the .625m ones) but much higher power consumption (around 4 times for the least power-hungry one, I seem to remember?) than the current PB-Ion. Be aware that the comparisons in the thread were written in 0.23, when the PB-Ion had .5 thrust. I don't think there's a table anywhere of the details and I don't have KSP open atm, so I can't give the exact values.

(If loch.ness is referring to argon engines, I've no idea since I haven't really played around with argon. And it would pretty much be tomfoolery to attempt this challenge with hydrogen engines.)

Edited May 19, 2014 by Whovian

[Ziv]

Hmm... I love the modded parts too but there are too much possible mixing of mods which would make the missions difficult to compare, this is why I want this Challenge to be stock or as-close-as-possible to stock. Also, most of the viewers of this forum are the advanced beginners who would do something really complex and hard but still didn't use too much mods.

So I will be happy to put a nicely designed modded mission on the Hall of Fame, but under the Mixed Solutions... even with indication to which Level was it designed, if needed.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Ziv

[loch.ness]

The basic thing about the modded parts that they cannot give you any advantage. So if the Porkworks inflatable centrifuge is 4 kerbals too but bigger and heavier then it's allowed. Aestethic parts are okay too if they don't have engines/fuels/etc but only dead weight.

And similarly if a solar panel is 1/4 of the weight of a gigantor but 1/2 the efficiency then it's an advantage so it is prohibited.

CAP-106 Capacitors: please link this one, I didn't find it.

I don't really know Near Future parts, can you link a list of them with the details? But I heard they are stronger/better then the stock and if so they cannot be used.

Or if you want to use parts mods which has advantage over the stock parts and you don't worry about being on the Level 1-2-3-Jeb then let's go for it and it will go on the Freestyle category.

I can remove the Near Future Solar and Capacitors at this stage without problem. I'm not using any Near Future engines yet (haven't gotten my brain around the design requirements for them appropriately). The Capacitors add a new functionality - basically an energy store that can be used to quickly recharge batteries. I included them in the design for aesthetics though acknowledge that they could be very useful too. They're only in 1 part so far and shouldn't be hard to remove.

Right now I know I'm building everything waaay too big - I'm only starting down the road to elegant and efficient designs. This is my first ever trip to the Jool system (and only my second interplanetary mission - though first for this save)

I do have KAS and am likely to use it to strut the ship together in orbit (orbital construction) since I'm likely to be building big.

Current concepts (all in need of shrinking I'm sure):

Tylo lander concept:

I'm going to fiddle with it, right now this lander will attach to the base of the mothership and be able to serve as a assisting booster during injection and capture (though much more fuel hungry than the mothership's LVNs.

Mini-MAL concept:

I was preparing for 0.24 where I hope to have a more elegant space program save and wanted to do more things Apollo style even when there was no need. MAL - Munar Adventure Lander inspired Mini-Mal for minmas. After looking at the gravity of Jools two outermoons I thought Mini-Mal would work for both of them as well.

The engines are discardable, but aren't intended to be discarded without need - the intend of the ship is a reusable lander for more in depth exploration.

Re-purposed Moho lander for Vall:

MJ is saying its set at a TWR on Vall of 6.1 and is likely carrying much more fuel than it needs. The current model has a questionable Near Future Battery on the nose (because I liked the look better than a girder for attaching the standard docking port). weight to charge wise it looks decently balanced, but I can remove/redesign easily enough.

No pictures of a mothership yet, I need to get my lander designs sorted before I know which configurations I'm going with. Next post will have a picture of LORD (laythe Orbit Return Device), my current ICARUS mk II (Interplanetary Command And Reconnaissance Utility Ship (The only going to Laythe only) and some test configs for ICARUS III which will be my transfer ship for this mission. May also include a picture of the Vulcan CSM (designed for my Duna mission) I plan to use in Jool system as the tug.

Edited May 20, 2014 by loch.ness
somehow post had been doubled.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

[snip]Right now I know I'm building everything waaay too big - I'm only starting down the road to elegant and efficient designs. This is my first ever trip to the Jool system (and only my second interplanetary mission - though first for this save)

[snip]

Tylo lander concept: http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/450669858505189103/6F64A48588691687520B1430576D936C9AB90DDE/1024x640.resizedimage

woah, that's HUGE! you will need a big mothership to haul that to Jool with the other landers, remember that they will affect TWR even if they are carrying no fuel...

[loch.ness]

Yeah, I know. I'm going to fiddle with trying to tone it down. Tylo is the only moon I was going to skip before finding this thread so I've spent the least time considering it. Might need to look back through this thread and "get inspired" by someone else for that lander appropriately.

Looking at the upper stage again, I can probably shrink it considerably. Actually, just now I was able to work out a second design which cam in at less than half the weight but is about 400 Delta V shy so far.

I mentioned that this is still early in the design stage.

[Patupi]

Right now I know I'm building everything waaay too big - I'm only starting down the road to elegant and efficient designs. This is my first ever trip to the Jool system (and only my second interplanetary mission - though first for this save)

I do have KAS and am likely to use it to strut the ship together in orbit (orbital construction) since I'm likely to be building big.

Current concepts (all in need of shrinking I'm sure):

Tylo lander concept: http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/450669858505189103/6F64A48588691687520B1430576D936C9AB90DDE/1024x640.resizedimage

I'm going to fiddle with it, right now this lander will attach to the base of the mothership and be able to serve as a assisting booster during injection and capture (though much more fuel hungry than the mothership's LVNs.

If you can get 5000 dV you can probably land and take off without staging, and that ship looks about the same size as mine that did just that, though I goofed on the final orbital circularization it did get back up OK. However it does take some careful piloting on landing for that. I risked it because I've done a LOT of landing at weird angles and attitudes during my time on KSP, even if it wasn't on Tylo itself.

Bare minimum seems around 2200 dV down, and something similar coming back up, though as those charts linked on the first page suggest, it depends on TWR local to that body and ISP. Still, a good minimum to start with.

I was thinking of just a minimal probe body, one chair, a ladder, a solar panel or three, and the rest fuel and engines (maybe some landing gear would help ) but eventually decided to go for the whole 'Tylo SSTO' thing. I probably could do better still than I did. My first efforts I tried it with Poodle engines and got a smaller craft, but the best TWR I could get was 1.25 on landing and couldn't get the dV good enough overall with that set up. Hence I switched to Skippers.

Play around with different engines, even ones you wouldn't think would work better. Sometimes the weird solutions come up with something truly interesting