(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Stratzenblitz75]

Hello everyone! I've just begun the Jool-5 segment of my grand tour! So far, I've gathered a total of 76 science reports just from flybys of Jool's moons.

Here is the Imgur album if any of you are curious.

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[NecroBones]

NecroBones: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge on Level 1! Wow, that was a really huge rocket on the launch pad at the second launch! I don't like that you used KAS struts because it's easier to build huge rockets that way but I will not disqualify you because of this. Otherwise nice looking ship (like a Corelian Corvette ), and I also liked as you have visited your old landing sites on Pol and Bop. Those pictures had a cool feeling!

Nice job, thank you for participating!

Thanks! Yeah, I didn't like using KAS struts either. They weren't part of the original plan. I could have done it without them, but the maneuvers would have taken a lot longer.

Yeah, the drive-section launch, I refer to that as my "wedding cake lifter design"... heh.

[NecroBones]

From what I can make out though, KAS isn't all plain easy sailing... I'm under the impression that you can attach some bits and pieces in VAB/SPH, but to connect them together (in orbit) you need to send the parts pack up so a kerbal on EVA can actually 'tie' things together... which makes it semi-realistic IMO, but as I said, I haven't really played with it much so far!

Yes, that's right. If you use them after-the-fact, you need to bring up a box of parts, and do an EVA to put everything in place. This is what I did with mine, just to get a little more stability. It doesn't fix everything. For instance, my ship still couldn't use MechJeb to execute maneuver nodes for me, even with KAS struts. But turn off MJ and SAS, and it flew straight.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Yes, that's right. If you use them after-the-fact, you need to bring up a box of parts, and do an EVA to put everything in place. This is what I did with mine, just to get a little more stability. It doesn't fix everything. For instance, my ship still couldn't use MechJeb to execute maneuver nodes for me, even with KAS struts. But turn off MJ and SAS, and it flew straight.

heh, well I never, I was right in a surmisation!

Funnily enough, MJ is working fine for me... as long as I turn RCS off and let it settle a little in between maneuvres... There's a .GIF in my mission log showing how loose everything can be at times! handy to find out that docking ports will allow rotation, under extreme circumstances anyway!

[Himynameisjake]

One additional thing: if you start multiple mission to multiple bodies from Kerbin orbit that's hardly a Grand Tour. In my opinion that's like multiple separate missions. Even if you put them together into orbit and then they go on separate ways in the Kerbol System...

I agree but I can't say that I didn't split-ship to Dres and Moho, so I'm glad you weren't too hard on me!

[Himynameisjake]

Hello everyone! I've just begun the Jool-5 segment of my grand tour! So far, I've gathered a total of 76 science reports just from flybys of Jool's moons.

Here is the Imgur album if any of you are curious.

http://imgur.com/a/y90iR

Looking efficient! Keep it up!

[Fendleton]

So I've assembled my science+accom+prop modules in orbit (although I have to tweak the science modules: Forgot the goo and the nosecone), and I'm wondering....what's a good basic design for a 1-person lander for this challenge? I've got what looks like plenty of delta-V for my main craft, and I'm planning to add some extra fuel in the form of droptanks as well..but I've never really made a multi-shot lander before except for Mun/minmus missions. And I'm running the game stock, so I can't rely on engineering plugins to tell me if I've got enough delta-V/TWR. Is there any sort of test I could do around the Kerbin system to ensure my designs are up to scratch?

Here's what I've got set up in orbit so far: ginormous transfer module (two of the biggest tanks in the game + 6 NERVAs + 6 SRBs for leaving kerbin SOI. The original no-SRB model failed due to an upside-down docking port), not so ginormous crew module (2 hitchhiker containers, 1 lab, bunch of RTGs, some RCS fuel + parachutes for the lab module), 5 science modules (RTGs, all the science stuff except the nosecone and goo, which I'll launch up next time and dock to the existing modules. 4 modules are docked to the crew module, and the fifth is attached to the reserve docking port behind the engine array. Each module has a probe body and some RCS fuel so it can move between craft.), and the orbital tug for the crew module (since de-orbited).

On top that lot, I'm planning a reserve fuel stage, with some drop tanks with seperatron-spam to let me eject tanks without them clipping the RTG arrays. Then the lander(s) will go at the front of the ship, so that the higher thrust engines can be used for an emergency braking burn if necessary. Partcount is starting to become a problem, but using the ultra-massive tanks has helped a bit.

My flightplan is to do a direct burn to Jool from LKO, using the SRBs to punch out of the gravity well. At this point I will discover whether the seperatrons on the SRBs can be fired without killing the main transfer stage. Assuming that they can, I'll aerobrake at Jool, probably into Tylo orbit. Then I'll land one kerbal on each moon using either 1 or 2 landers (depending how much mass each one takes). The mothership will mostly avoid SOI changes where possible, since warping around the Jool system has historically caused my ships to get flung out into interstellar space. I'll use it to gather orbital science though. I'll probably go for a Tylo or Laythe landing first, then work my way out to the others in turn. Depending on fuel (since I don't know how much delta-V I've actually got) I'll either burn straight out of Jool orbit, wait for a fuel tanker, or use a bunch of gravity-assists off Tylo, Laythe and Val to fling me out of the SOI and return to Kerbin. At that point, I'll see if I can get it into a nice stable orbit so I can extract the crew and science modules for return to Kerbin.

The science gear is redundant: I can either run with the "store it in the lab" plan, or take each individual package back to Kerbin. I'm also thinking about an addon to my lander that would allow me to swap out command pods for extra science points. But first I need to actually build a lander that can actually work for this challenge.....then worry about making it both modular and able to withstand acceleration forces.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

And don't forget to factor in aerobraking if you are planning on using it to save some dV... I had some surprises with mine!

I'd say, for a test, send a ship with similar mass and fuel/thrust to Jool, see how much fuel you have left... If you have enough for the multiple transfer burns you need to do between the moons, give the mission a go - you can always send more fuel if you *really* need to! One thing everyone loves about this challenge

[Fendleton]

And don't forget to factor in aerobraking if you are planning on using it to save some dV... I had some surprises with mine!

I'd say, for a test, send a ship with similar mass and fuel/thrust to Jool, see how much fuel you have left... If you have enough for the multiple transfer burns you need to do between the moons, give the mission a go - you can always send more fuel if you *really* need to! One thing everyone loves about this challenge

I've got a spare tanker design based off just the transfer stage that I'm going to have as a backup....it'll use a claw unit for docking and some probe bodies+ RTGs for control. It'll handle horribly, but it'll carry a lot of fuel very nicely. So running out of fuel is fine as long as I can make a stable orbit (and with that much fuel on the mothership, that should not be an issue). The problem is that darned lander....I need to carry a size-1 science payload from a docking port, but also fit onto the size-2 docking rings on the main ship. So that, plus the fact I'm not about to risk knocking engines off with docking, pretty much dictates having the science package docked underneath the lander, meaning a somewhat strange setup is required to prevent it getting crushed on landing. Plus the whole "land on tylo and laythe" thing. At this stage I'm testing my lander prototypes by seeing how they do around kerbin.....my guess is that if I can SSTO with a reasonable amount of fuel left over, they're worth trying out on Tylo. I'l probably over-engineer it and go for something that can theoretically take off from kerbin and fly all the way to Duna.

Still, at the end of all this I will have a truly wonderfully overpowered lander.

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

It sounds like you should be good... but yeah, a single land-on-all type lander can cause problems in itself!

If only using one lander, then why have the science package as a seperate component of the ship?

And last little bit of advice for now; I have found that 'docking adapters' are infinitely useful! simply made once you get the gist, too...

[kookoo_gr]

Hello everyone! I've just begun the Jool-5 segment of my grand tour! So far, I've gathered a total of 76 science reports just from flybys of Jool's moons.

Here is the Imgur album if any of you are curious.

Just a quick question about your Jool diver/science. There are two 'Biomes' for Jool's atmosphere, High atmosphere and low atmosphere, where does the low begin at 118 km or lower?

[Himynameisjake]

Just a quick question about your Jool diver/science. There are two 'Biomes' for Jool's atmosphere, High atmosphere and low atmosphere, where does the low begin at 118 km or lower?

120km with a suborbital trajectory. meaning you have to slow down enough to have your periapis disappear then speed back up and get out.

[grockstar124]

I like overplanning . This isn't the final plan, infact, I think I am changing a couple Jool SOI engines, I do not need 10 engines to get to to all of the moons. I think I'll have 8 SOI engines, and 4 or 5 Jool SOI engines.

[Stratzenblitz75]

Just a quick question about your Jool diver/science. There are two 'Biomes' for Jool's atmosphere, High atmosphere and low atmosphere, where does the low begin at 118 km or lower?

Basically what Jake said. In order to get "flying at Jool" reports, you need to have a "sea-level" altitude of 120 Km or lower, and you need to be on a suborbital trajectory (a periapsis that is below 0 meters "sea-level"). Likewise, you also need a suborbital trajectory for "upper atmosphere" reports as well. This means that the most efficient way to get both sets of reports is to dive down to 120 Km, wait until your trajectory is sub-orbital, gather the science, then fire up the engines and get the heck out of there. However, this isn't always the case as Jool's atmosphere does a pretty good job of slowing you down into a suborbital trajectory before you even get to 120 Km. That's what happened to me, my periapsis was well below Jool "sea level" when I did my "flying at Jool" science reports. This shouldn't cost you too much fuel to compensate for, its just something I noted when I did my Jool dive.

[grockstar124]

Today is not a good day...

KASA lost 2 kerbals trying to lift the Life Support Module for the Ark (What I am calling the ship now) into orbit

Here it is. (Now that I look back at the rocket, I realize that I forgot to put struts)

The actual module:

And the launcher:

So I was prepared to launch the rocket, when I checked the map view. I noticed that the clock had started counting at 13 seconds. Then when I turned the nav ball on in map view, it was tilted sideways. When I closed out map view to see what the heck was happening, I saw that the rocket had dissatched from the main engine, and was slowly tilting sideways. Then the rocket broke off of the engine, hitting the ground, and exploding. The 2 kerbals on board the rocket were killed.

According to the log, something had caused the engines to break off the rocket at 19 seconds.

The explosion that killed the kerbals and destoryed 10 to 20% of the rocket started at 22 seconds.

This is what was left of the rocket.

Not off to a great start, but oh well. I still am not giving up!

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

I like overplanning . This isn't the final plan, infact, I think I am changing a couple Jool SOI engines, I do not need 10 engines to get to to all of the moons. I think I'll have 8 SOI engines, and 4 or 5 Jool SOI engines.

Be careful you don't over-power as well as over-engineer... I had a LOT of 'fun' trying out various combinations of huge engines, and found the most powerful I could use at full thrust were Skippers... 4 of them. Any more/more powerful, and you are likely to tear stuff apart!

Today is not a good day...

KASA lost 2 kerbals trying to lift the Life Support Module for the Ark (What I am calling the ship now) into orbit

Here it is. (Now that I look back at the rocket, I realize that I forgot to put struts)

ALWAYS use struts! Especially on a ship big enough to go to Jool...

Best of luck with the next launch

[kookoo_gr]

Man, this challenge with the grand tour is something else, i'm doing a shakedown at the various stages for this challenge and i am still a long way with the test of the Jool drive. Just a final question how much ÃŽâ€V do i need for the Jool tour? I made some some rough calculations, along with a visit to Duna and i come at about 22000 m/s

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Man, this challenge with the grand tour is something else, i'm doing a shakedown at the various stages for this challenge and i am still a long way with the test of the Jool drive. Just a final question how much ÃŽâ€V do i need for the Jool tour? I made some some rough calculations, along with a visit to Duna and i come at about 22000 m/s

Having done a similar rough calculation, you wouldn't have enough fuel left over to get home! So would require a refuel mission... unless you get really creative with aerobraking and have some sort of genius plan to deal with Laythe and Tylo...

[Stratzenblitz75]

Man, this challenge with the grand tour is something else, i'm doing a shakedown at the various stages for this challenge and i am still a long way with the test of the Jool drive. Just a final question how much ÃŽâ€V do i need for the Jool tour? I made some some rough calculations, along with a visit to Duna and i come at about 22000 m/s

First of all, what kind of grand tour do you wish to embark on? One with science, or one without? In the case of doing it without science, your main vessel only needs to make three transfers: Kerbin->Eve->Duna->Laythe. From these planets, you can send out a small lander to perform landings on the planet, its moons and even other planets before returning back to the main vessel for refueling. By using this lander/supply ship combo, you can effectively give the lander tens of thousands of Delta V to perform all the landings you need it to (except Eve, you need a dedicated lander for that one). For example, for the Jool system, just park your main vessel at Laythe, and send your lander down to Laythe, then liftoff and return to the main vessel, then refuel, and send your lander to Vall and return, rinse and repeat. Its more complicated if you want to bring heavy science equipment along. Check out my Sigma and Outer Wilds missions for reference. If you want more accurate Delta V stats, feel free to PM me, I have flowcharts, graphs, and spreadsheets to help calculate these stats.

[Himynameisjake]

First of all, what kind of grand tour do you wish to embark on? One with science, or one without? In the case of doing it without science, your main vessel only needs to make three transfers: Kerbin->Eve->Duna->Laythe. From these planets, you can send out a small lander to perform landings on the planet, its moons and even other planets before returning back to the main vessel for refueling. By using this lander/supply ship combo, you can effectively give the lander tens of thousands of Delta V to perform all the landings you need it to (except Eve, you need a dedicated lander for that one). For example, for the Jool system, just park your main vessel at Laythe, and send your lander down to Laythe, then liftoff and return to the main vessel, then refuel, and send your lander to Vall and return, rinse and repeat. Its more complicated if you want to bring heavy science equipment along. Check out my Sigma and Outer Wilds missions for reference. If you want more accurate Delta V stats, feel free to PM me, I have flowcharts, graphs, and spreadsheets to help calculate these stats.

^Seriously, every time you post about a grand tour, I realize how much more analytically you approached yours than I did. probably why I required more than 20k Liquid fuel.

[bobcook]

My Jool-5 entry is now complete and ready for review. The full mission report is recorded over a number of posts in this thread but that contains around 500 images over a number of different albums. I've created a much smaller and simpler highlight album here.

There was no refuelling once the mission was underway, but multiple launches into LKO to construct the gigantic ship with landers. Mods used: MechJeb, Kerbal Alarm Clock, RealChutes.

I planned to enter for the Jebediah level, however upon review of the challenge rules I now realize I forgot to bring along a PresMat Barometer for Laythe. I got the Sensor Array Nose Cone though. Sheepishly I submit my mission report and ask for an exception. I leave it to Ziv to decide my fate.

Edited June 24, 2014 by bobcook

[kookoo_gr]

I am going for the jeb level but i have covered the other planets along with landers. My Jool-5 profile is a visit to Duna land and leave for Jool. Aerobrake to Jool and start from laythe and go outwards. I have the landers covered but i need a confirmation of the ÃŽâ€V for the drive

[Himynameisjake]

I am going for the jeb level but i have covered the other planets along with landers. My Jool-5 profile is a visit to Duna land and leave for Jool. Aerobrake to Jool and start from laythe and go outwards. I have the landers covered but i need a confirmation of the ÃŽâ€V for the drive

Kookoo, the calculation you have is correct. I would recommend splitting up and parking somewhere in the Joolian system and head to individual moons with a tug of some kind, but if you want to take a giant ship all around, yes, 22k is the number.

[NecroBones]

My Jool-5 entry is now complete and ready for review. The full mission report is recorded over a number of posts in this thread but that contains around 500 images over a number of different albums. I've created a much smaller and simpler highlight album here.

Another huge ship. I love it!

[Ziv]

My Jool-5 entry is now complete and ready for review. The full mission report is recorded over a number of posts in this thread but that contains around 500 images over a number of different albums. I've created a much smaller and simpler highlight album here.

There was no refuelling once the mission was underway, but multiple launches into LKO to construct the gigantic ship with landers. Mods used: MechJeb, Kerbal Alarm Clock, RealChutes.

I planned to enter for the Jebediah level, however upon review of the challenge rules I now realize I forgot to bring along a PresMat Barometer for Laythe. I got the Sensor Array Nose Cone though. Sheepishly I submit my mission report and ask for an exception. I leave it to Ziv to decide my fate.

bobcook: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge on Jebediah's Level! Well planned (except at the end) and big mission so yeah, I can get over the fact that you didn't bring a PresMat Barometer to Laythe (KSC commander: WHAT?!? Now we have to send back a probe for that!)

Everything looked good in your mission summary, and I liked that you have sent two Kerbals to all of the moons, that's not general on Jebediah's Level. That's also nice that you have brought back all the science instrument. But seeing the similar landers, you could have used docking ports and less landers, no? Maybe two: one for Tylo and one for the others... but anyway, nice mission. That was funny at the end that you didn't have enough docking ports so one lander started to go home on its own, but needed refuel half way from the main ship, which became a simple lander change to go back... unique problem solving, good job!

Thank you for participating!

Edited June 24, 2014 by Ziv