(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Norcurion]

Finally I've got some time to assemble my second try

EDIT: Aaaaaand done!

to throw in some random numbers:

orbit: 310x309 km

mass: 299.01 tonns

Launches: 4

combined

mass on pad: ~3000 tonns

part count: 378

Edited February 2, 2014 by Norcurion

[jacobgong]

514 tones, 16717.6 science, 1 refuel, Jeb level, 3 kerbals per moon 5 total.

I think that's enough to unlock everything.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/68262-The-ultimate-Jool-5-challenge-514-tones-16717-6-science?p=944996#post944996

Edited February 2, 2014 by jacobgong

[SSSPutnik]

Nice one jacobgong. The lander looks very cool, shame you had to refuel but been there, done that.

[zeppelinmage]

Arrived in the Joolian system tonight.

Would have been a lot sooner, but this is in my Career save. I had a few other flights that had encounters/windows before this ship did. (That happens when it takes a year to transfer out to Jool...)

Now I have to start planning my moon encounters/landings. That'll be over the next couple days.

[Cupcake...]

Tylos out the way, Val is done, just in orbit around Laythe now.

Cupcake...

[Jasonden]

Here's an entry for sub-challenge 1. Not in any way remotely competitive with Meskin, but this one has no jets, only rockets. One Kerbal, single nuclear lander used for all targets. This system is a bit overdesigned, so I could have pared it down, so maybe I'll try it again someday. 723t on the launch pad, one launch, no refuels.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Edited February 4, 2014 by Jasonden

[Ziv]

514 tones, 16717.6 science, 1 refuel, Jeb level, 3 kerbals per moon 5 total.

I think that's enough to unlock everything.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/68262-The-ultimate-Jool-5-challenge-514-tones-16717-6-science?p=944996#post944996

jacobgong, nice try, but there's no space for inattentiveness in Space Exploration! You already had a mission where you wanted to go for Jebediah's Level but four Kerbals forgot to board your ship before launch and you did the whole mission with one Kerbal only. The rule says you have to bring five Kerbals on Jeb's Level. And now you did it again: only three Kerbals went on the mission.

It still could be good for a Level 2 entry, but I strongly dispute your Tylo landing too, by the pictures:

1. descending:

- altitude (true): 4181 m

- no horizontal speed (stopping at 4km is a highly inefficient way to land and wastes a lot of deltaV!)

- 144 m/s vertical speed (freefalling)

- 1024+2418 m/s left

2. ascending:

- altitude (true): 591 m

- some horizontal speed

- 110.7 m/s surface speed

- 379+2418 m/s left

...so you landed from a 4.1 km freefall and get back to 600m+110m/s with only 645 m/s of deltaV??

And I don't see any ladder on your lander: how did you get the Kerbals back into your lander on Tylo and Laythe?

If you can't prove you had your Kerbals on the surface of Tylo and Laythe then I consider this entry as a cheating!

After this, I started to doubt the cleanness of your first mission too...

Edited February 5, 2014 by Ziv

[jacobgong]

jacobgong, nice try, but there's no space for inattentiveness in Space Exploration! You already had a mission where you wanted to go for Jebediah's Level but four Kerbals forgot to board your ship before launch and you did the whole mission with one Kerbal only. The rule says you have to bring five Kerbals on Jeb's Level. And now you did it again: only three Kerbals went on the mission.

It still could be good for a Level 2 entry, but I strongly dispute your Tylo landing too, by the pictures:

1. descending:

- altitude (true): 4181 m

- no horizontal speed (stopping at 4km is a highly inefficient way to land and wastes a lot of deltaV!)

- 144 m/s vertical speed (freefalling)

- 1024+2418 m/s left

2. ascending:

- altitude (true): 591 m

- some horizontal speed

- 110.7 m/s surface speed

- 379+2418 m/s left

...so you landed from a 4.1 km freefall and get back to 600m+110m/s with only 645 m/s of deltaV??

And I don't see any ladder on your lander: how did you get the Kerbals back into your lander on Tylo and Laythe?

If you can't prove you had your Kerbals on the surface of Tylo and Laythe then I consider this entry as a cheating!

After this, I started to doubt the cleanness of your first mission too...

There's 2 more in the lab, at least 1 screenshot shows that the lab is also filled at the same time as the pods.

killing horizontal speed at any point is ok and has no effect on fuel efficiency, as long as you do perfectly horizontal burns instead of retrograde,

as for laythe, since the stage is connected via docking port, delta v calculations are incorrect. it will show to have 3,900 total with decouplers. you can try it yourself.

Edited February 5, 2014 by jacobgong

[Ziv]

Here's an entry for sub-challenge 1. Not in any way remotely competitive with Meskin, but this one has no jets, only rockets. One Kerbal, single nuclear lander used for all targets. This system is a bit overdesigned, so I could have pared it down, so maybe I'll try it again someday. 723t on the launch pad, one launch, no refuels.

http://imgur.com/a/Ty2jH

Jasonden, very nice one, congratulations! Yeah, your launch vehicle is very big without jets. Are the torodial Aerospikes better than Mainsails?

And your launch vehicle is not the same which arrived to Jool: the parachutes are on the engines, and later it's a dockable module (please check if you have uploaded the right pictures).

I like the simplicity and effectiveness of your lander with the pod on the bottom, but I wonder that those little legs were strong enough. I like your tank-only insertion/departure module too. Nice job with landing back at KSC - without parachutes.

[Ziv]

There's 2 more in the lab, at least 1 screenshot shows that the lab is also filled at the same time as the pods.

killing horizontal speed at any point is ok and has no effect on fuel efficiency, as long as you do perfectly horizontal burns instead of retrograde,

as for laythe, since the stage is connected via docking port, delta v calculations are incorrect. it will show to have 3,900 total with decouplers. you can try it yourself.

Okay, Laythe would have been okay. But stopping your orbital speed several kilometers high above the surface ISN'T efficient because you have to fight against gravity while descending.

Other disputed points:

1. I saw only three Kerbals: Thomfield, Hadrigh, Sean. Kerbals are not listed at the bottom right if they are in the Lab? (I haven't used the Lab yet)

2. How did you manage to get your Kerbals back into your lander without a ladder?

Edited February 5, 2014 by Ziv

[jacobgong]

Okay, Laythe would have been okay. But stopping your orbital speed several kilometers high above the surface ISN'T efficient because you have to fight against gravity while descending.

Other disputed points:

1. I saw only three Kerbals: Thomfield, Hadrigh, Sean. Kerbals are not listed at the bottom right if they are in the Lab, or what?

2. How did you manage to get your Kerbals back into your lander without a ladder?

you are constantly under gravity's acceleration regardless of what you are doing. orbiting only make the ground go away, it doesn't stop you from falling. The way to save fuel is to fall faster, so you are under acceleration for shorter. And no, killing horizontal speed does not make you fall slower.

there's one screenshot were I right clicked the lab's door showing the other kerbals.

the kerbals did not go onto the ground, they stood on the fuel tank. It still counts as landed according to the EVA report and surface sample taken.

Edited February 5, 2014 by jacobgong

[zeppelinmage]

Killing horizontal speed, then fighting gravity vertically (two decelerations, horizontal and vertical) is less efficient than coming in at an angle, killing both at the same time.

Right triangle: your vertical velocity is one side, horizontal is the other. More efficient to burn along the hypotenuse.

[Kasuha]

1. I saw only three Kerbals: Thomfield, Hadrigh, Sean. Kerbals are not listed at the bottom right if they are in the Lab? (I haven't used the Lab yet)

No, Lab module has no IVA so their icons don't show up.

But you should be able to see them in landing shots as each Kerbal is supposed to be trained for one moon so each should be commanding one landing mission.

But in the screenshots I can see the same three Kerbals landing everywhere.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Kasuha

[SSSPutnik]

Just to throw this in... My Jool 2 mission ran out of fuel 1 moon short.

Decided to just leave them in orbit, won't submit. (Too similar to Jool 1 mission).

Will rescue them with Jool mission 4!

How did house move go Ziv? Any more thoughts on Kethane variant mission?

They are orbiting Pol so nice n easy.

[zeppelinmage]

My status as of today: Currently in elliptical Joolian orbit, from 800 km out to Tylo. I'll wait on this orbit until moon windows get close, then I can burn small burns to get captures for the landers. Laythe is first up, will probably tackle that tomorrow.

One thing I noticed; now that my mothership fuel is becoming low, the COM has shifted quite drastically. The mass difference between my radially attached Laythe and Tylo landers is especially noticeable now. Whereas before I could get away with slight corrections at full throttle, now I have to limit thrust to 30% just so the drift is manageable by holding WASD.

Also, lag is killer on this thing... 9-minute burns take an hour or more. (Which is why tonight was doing nothing but finalizing my Joolian parking orbit.)

...I can't wait until I can separate the Laythe lander and rearrange the mass. Lol.

[immelman]

I've found this very useful in working out what was the best way to approach landing on airless bodies:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/39812-Landing-and-Takeoff-Delta-V-vs-TWR-and-specific-impulse

[Alpheratz]

There is my entry for level 1 with minimalistic sub-challenge: start weight - 144 t on launchpad with one brave men (Bill) in old fashioned, comfortable, personal cabin

http://imgur.com/a/Sgi0c

Wow, this is truly impressive! That's what I call optimized

[Ziv]

jacobgong: I'm sorry but I can't accept your entry because you didn't follow the rules (one Kerbal trained for each moon).

And the lander without ladder doesn't make sense, and the Tylo/Laythe landings are a little bit doubted too.

And you used modded parts too and normally I would ask for the specifications for all of them (engines/fuel tanks) if they are similar to the stock ones (especially because I saw you used LLL parts and some of them are too good against the stock parts). But no need for that after all. I'm sorry about that because otherwise I liked your unique solutions and your science points would make a new record too. But the Challenge is still open for you, of course! But next time be sure to follow the rules and make pictures at every key stages of the mission!

And, of course, next time bring a ladder! Imagine how the Kerbals feel when they traveled for hundreds of days to take a look at the surface from 2 meters, without the chance to walk on it...

Edited February 5, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

I've found this very useful in working out what was the best way to approach landing on airless bodies:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/39812-Landing-and-Takeoff-Delta-V-vs-TWR-and-specific-impulse

This is very useful so I put the link onto the first page. Thank you!

[SSSPutnik]

Ziv, think you need to make modded part usage on rules page clear because at the moment they aren't prohibited.

My entry used KW tanks and engines for instance.

Also, if we do assembly in orbit, does it matter what parts we use to get them to orbit, or just the final ship.

Things like stretchy tanks for instance? Never used them but it needs to be clear.

[Ziv]

How did house move go Ziv? Any more thoughts on Kethane variant mission?

They are orbiting Pol so nice n easy.

Yeah, I'm in my new home, with internet , thanks for the question!

Yeah, I'm going to add a Kethane version too! I'm thinking about the rules... let me know if you have any ideas!

I'm sure there will be two basic versions: a Low Mass Challenge for the fan of optimizations, and an Expedition Style for the ambitious explorers!

What do you think guys? What should be the rules? Which are not too strict so there's place for creativity but gives a strong shape for the mission. Which is similar to the "Ars Poetica" of this Challenge.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

Ziv, think you need to make modded part usage on rules page clear because at the moment they aren't prohibited.

Also, if we do assembly in orbit, does it matter what parts we use to get them to orbit, or just the final ship.

Things like stretchy tanks for instance? Never used them but it needs to be clear.

Yes, you are absolutely right. But there was no need for that until you arrived. I'm not sure how to do that because downloading all the possible mods and checking all the parts looks too big for me to do. Maybe when planning a mission it should be asked. Or something like that.

[Mr.Rocket]

I'm thinking of ditching my current mission and doing the kethane version instead, i'm stuck in a bit of trouble on the regular mission, although i may keep with it, with alot of refueling. I think it's a wonderful idea to add a separate Kethane leader-board, i made a separate install yesterday for it before i saw this. With my other entry, my computer sounded louder than the rocket itself so...

Some ideas for the kethane version( you don't need to add them, just suggestions )

You have to bring the kethane scanners with you, none from previous missions

No refueling from Kerbin, as you should have brought along kethane miners

Maybe something like you must use kethane jets on Laythe, this just popped up in my mind

You can use KAS with Kethane to make it a little easier

No mining on certain moons for environmental reasons (just to make it a little harder, not sure which moons)

Just some suggestions

Edit: i'm going to stick with my current mission too!

Edited February 5, 2014 by Mr.Rocket

[SSSPutnik]

I have some ideas on the Kethane version. Something like.

Kerbin scientists have recently discovered this wondrous substance which offers the possibility of opening up the solar system for exploration. Recent spectroscopic studies of the Jool system show the presence of Kethane on the Joolian moons.

However due to economic circumstances, the Kerbin space agencies can only afford to send one ship with the hope of discovering Kethane which will make future missions cheaper.

Rules:

No refueling missions allowed.

Scan and find a Kethane deposit on each moon.

Land at each moons deposit to take a soil sample. (In sandbox this means just pretending to, but screenshot of lander on deposit and with Kerbal on ground).

Bonus:

Set up a permanent Kethane mining rig on moon/s. (Bonus for manned?)

Land with insufficient fuel to return to orbit, refueling using Kethane?

Bonus, setup Kethane miner that can send usable fuel to orbit?

Unsure about Laythe, you could get all Kethane there underwater and not usable?

Extra bonus for underwater mining? Rumour is Kraken likes that though.

Allow KAS?

[Mr.Rocket]

I have some ideas on the Kethane version. Something like.

Rules:

No refueling missions allowed.

Scan and find a Kethane deposit on each moon.

Bonus, setup Kethane miner that can send usable fuel to orbit?

Allow KAS?

Great minds think alike