(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Cmdr. Arn1e]

Sorry for asking a potentially stupid question, but do we have to have a crew module in the vessel (I will attempt the first level) or can I use an external command seat right from the launchpad?

Ziv has completed his own challenge (plus an extra rule or two for himself) a few times, at least once with Jeb on his own in the ECS all the way! Others have done Grand Tours in that way too, just depends what level you are going for...

and nice work, Himynameisjake, I can't speak for Ziv, but I would guess that you are including that mod so you can land on water at Laythe? The parts described in the readme don't seem overpowered, so I think he may allow! (Link: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24845-Boat-Parts-0-24-R4-5?highlight=BoatParts)

[Himynameisjake]

Ziv has completed his own challenge (plus an extra rule or two for himself) a few times, at least once with Jeb on his own in the ECS all the way! Others have done Grand Tours in that way too, just depends what level you are going for...

and nice work, Himynameisjake, I can't speak for Ziv, but I would guess that you are including that mod so you can land on water at Laythe? The parts described in the readme don't seem overpowered, so I think he may allow! (Link: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24845-Boat-Parts-0-24-R4-5?highlight=BoatParts)

It's set up for assuming that Laythe and Eve May one day have biomes that need exploring. Goes about 15m/s at top speed on Kerbin so yeah, it's not over powered

[DaMichel]

.

I have made some clarification about using mods.

I permitted many part mods and prohibited much more.

Check the list on the first page!

What is your stance over RLA Stockalike?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90218-0-24-2-RLA-Stockalike-v11-1-27-Aug

No IR makes me sad. And there aren't even engines in it. But FAR & DRE are allowed, are they?

Edited August 29, 2014 by DaMichel

[Ziv]

What is your stance over RLA Stockalike?

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/90218-0-24-2-RLA-Stockalike-v11-1-27-Aug

No IR makes me sad. And there aren't even engines in it. But FAR & DRE are allowed, are they?

With Infernal Robotics you can scale stuff and I don't like it... but if you want to use it's robotic arms then write me and I will consider letting it to be used.

FAR and DRE are allowed, added to the list.

I checked RLA Stockalike and I really like it, so I allow this mod too. The mini nuke and the tricky ion-hybrid engines can be an advantage at small crafts but at JOOL-5 small crafts are not common...

[Ziv]

Did you make a decision on the BoatParts mod? Waiting to submit some stuff until I hear back from ya

I allow it for you but don't want to write it out into the list because it won't be a common thing, I guess.

[Himynameisjake]

I allow it for you but don't want to write it out into the list because it won't be a common thing, I guess.

Alright off I go then!

[Gravaar]

Going to give this a try

What I got so far.... I sorta went with the go BIG or go home approach (Full Kerbal Mode Active)

Mass on Kerbin launch pad 16000 tons, Lifted to orbit just waiting on fuel for Jool transfer

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[Himynameisjake]

1.2m fuel and you can't reach orbit fully fueled and ready to go?!?! o.0 That's an immense ship.

[Gravaar]

On paper it could easily but losses from LAG meant a slight redesign of fuel routes which allowed it to drain out the fuel meant for Jool transfer

Rather than redo the whole thing I just went with it And I chose to NOT use a command chair or ladder rider for ANY part of my trip so my Lander is quite heavy

Original concept was just launch at KSC then push the go button straight to JOOL, now I will miss my launch window

BUT this Beast doesn't need no F*&%ing window it has Delta v to spare on ALL of its stages (On paper at least)

In theory about 800 tons of fuel should arrive at Jool. More than enough.

[DaMichel]

With Infernal Robotics you can scale stuff and I don't like it... but if you want to use it's robotic arms then write me and I will consider letting it to be used.

I see. Yeah they require Tweak Scale now. I haven't actually used it since then but i figured it could be useful to make light towers and some other things.

I checked RLA Stockalike and I really like it, so I allow this mod too. The mini nuke and the tricky ion-hybrid engines can be an advantage at small crafts but at JOOL-5 small crafts are not common...

Glad to hear that. My first lander concept makes heavy use of RLA Stockalike parts. But now i designed a new lander which exploits the command chair and the 48-7s, doesn't need RLA and weight 66% of the original design. Will need some additional science to unlock the chair, though.

I will attempt a Jebediah level mission with FAR and DRE. Here is what i have so far. I tested the designs with the help of Hyperedit.

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Problem: I have little idea of how much DV my interplanetary tug requires. With DV charts i estimate between 13k to 18k when i bring the whole ship in 100km orbits around each moon. Probably not a good idea. I have seen a thread in the help section which was very helpful. Still i have no exact number. This is why i launched a probe to Jool which will fly the planned route of the main ship and help me determine the DV requirements. It is currently approaching Tylo for a capture. I will use gravity assists to slow down instead of aerobraking because of DRE. There is plenty of opportunity for that and i already managed a Jool capture with the probe using Tylo's gravity.

Edited August 30, 2014 by DaMichel

[Ziv]

Problem: I have little idea of how much DV my interplanetary tug requires. With DV charts i estimate between 13k to 18k when i bring the whole ship in 100km orbits around each moon. Probably not a good idea. I have seen a thread in the help section which was very helpful. Still i have no exact number. This is why i launched a probe to Jool which will fly the planned route of the main ship and help me determine the DV requirements. It is currently approaching Tylo for a capture. I will use gravity assists to slow down instead of aerobraking because of DRE. There is plenty of opportunity for that and i already managed a Jool capture with the probe using Tylo's gravity.

going into a 100 km orbit around each moon is a very bad idea: it's a tremendous amount of fuel waste. The best solution is to park your main ship in an orbit between the moons, and use a smaller space-tug to bring your lander into orbit around the moons. And this way you don't have to move the weight of that parts and fuel into and out of each orbit what you will not use there.

Moving things in space needs energy, so move only what is absolutely neccessary.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

Going to give this a try

What I got so far.... I sorta went with the go BIG or go home approach (Full Kerbal Mode Active)

Mass on Kerbin launch pad 16000 tons, Lifted to orbit just waiting on fuel for Jool transfer

http://imgur.com/a/JJyS0

What is funny about space exploration is that the smaller you go, the more effective you are.

And this is very true about your final stage, the lander, in this case. If your lander is big, you need a much bigger stage to move that into a moon, and you need a much bigger stage to move that stage around Jool, and you need a much bigger stage to move that joolian stage to Jool. OH, and you need a much bigger stage to move this stuff out into low Kerbin orbit.

Let's say an example, where X is the weight of an imaginary final stage (lander) weight, and every stage needs five times more fuel to move the lander or the other upper stages:

Total weight = ((((X + 5X) * 5) * 5) *5) = 6X * 5 * 5 * 5 = 750X

So if your lander is 1 tons then your whole ship will be 750 tons. If your lander is 20 tons then your ship will be 15000 tons....

So, every gram in your lander counts as tons on your ship on the launchpad...

and with JOOL-5, if you use some good logistics and put your main ship together in low Kerbin orbit (LKO), and with space tugs to move the lander around into the moon orbit and out, and you have a "base" where you can refuel, it's also faaar more effective...

Edited August 30, 2014 by Ziv

[Gravaar]

What is funny about space exploration is that the smaller you go, the more effective you are.

And this is very true about your final stage, the lander, in this case. If your lander is big, you need a much bigger stage to move that into a moon, and you need a much bigger stage to move that stage around Jool, and you need a much bigger stage to move that joolian stage to Jool. OH, and you need a much bigger stage to move this stuff out into low Kerbin orbit.

Let's say an example, where X is the weight of an imaginary final stage (lander) weight, and every stage needs five times more fuel to move the lander or the other upper stages:

Total weight = ((((X + 5X) * 5) * 5) *5) = 6X * 5 * 5 * 5 = 750X

So if your lander is 1 tons then your whole ship will be 750 tons. If your lander is 20 tons then your ship will be 15000 tons....

So, every gram in your lander counts as tons on your ship on the launchpad...

and with JOOL-5, if you use some good logistics and put your main ship together in low Kerbin orbit (LKO), and with space tugs to move the lander around into the moon orbit and out, and you have a "base" where you can refuel, it's also faaar more effective...

Yep I know, I figured I would just move about 800 tons of fuel to Jool and leave it as a permanent refuel depot, I Already have a "base" orbiting at 250 x 250 near Kerbin as a kicker for smaller craft

this is my refuel depot in Kerbin SOI

LOL I just noticed I have 48 Nukes on the Jool transfer stage, Might have been a bit of overkill *GRINNING LIKE JEB* after I am done with it might use it to nuke Jool and see if I can knock it out of orbit

Edited August 30, 2014 by Gravaar

[Ziv]

Sorry for asking a potentially stupid question, but do we have to have a crew module in the vessel (I will attempt the first level) or can I use an external command seat right from the launchpad?

If you are so harsh to your Kerbal that you would put him in a chair for some years then yes, it's allowed (except for the Level 1 Low-mass challenge, there you have to have a pod for the interplanetary phase of the mission).

[Ziv]

Yep I know, I figured I would just move about 800 tons of fuel to Jool and leave it as a permanent refuel depot, I Already have a "base" orbiting at 250 x 250 near Kerbin as a kicker for smaller craft

this is my refuel depot in Kerbin SOI

http://i.imgur.com/M6HxSjK.png

LOL I just noticed I have 48 Nukes on the Jool transfer stage, Might have been a bit of overkill *GRINNING LIKE JEB* after I am done with it might use it to nuke Jool and see if I can knock it out of orbit

But please remember that for the JOOL-5 Challenge you have to go from Kerbin orbit to Jool as one big ship. So no pre-sent refuel bases there, also no parallel ships. Or you can do that, but that won't go in the official Hall of Fame.

[Gravaar]

But please remember that for the JOOL-5 Challenge you have to go from Kerbin orbit to Jool as one big ship. So no pre-sent refuel bases there, also no parallel ships. Or you can do that, but that won't go in the official Hall of Fame.

Yes I was planning on one BIG ship, I was just going to leave the extra fuel there when I return

[goldenpsp]

I'm not sure I'm ready for this challenge yet, but I'm curious why FAR is allowed but NEAR is not.

[Ziv]

I'm not sure I'm ready for this challenge yet, but I'm curious why FAR is allowed but NEAR is not.

FAR makes the atmospheres more tricky, and so the challenge harder. I guess NEAR has parts which are better than the stock parts, so that would make the challenge easier.

I don't have experience with NEAR so if it is stockalike then let me know and I will consider it.

[Pamynx]

I think I did it !

My way :

- One taking off from KSC.

- Trip to Jool all together.

- Plant 5 flags at the same moment.

- Go back all together.

- No external seat.

I did not try to make any science because I finished my science tree in my previous attempt (In fact I took science data from Tylo but forgot those in the Tylo ship ).

I did not use any docking.

My addons :

- MechJeb2

- SelectRoot

- ActionGroupManager

The taking off : 2744,427 tons.

1 Tylo heavy lander on the bottom. Its engine will help during the taking off.

2 planes the drop parts when going in orbit.

2 rocket landers, made for Vall, but with 2 parachutes, they are able to land on Laythe if needed.

2 Mini ion landers.

Each lander drop its empty parts and engine, in order to become a little ion ship. I will have 7 of them in the end.

And of course, a mother ship with 1 cupola and 1 hitchhiker using 2 nuclear engines.

Because I forgot to put sepratrons on one side of the big solid boosters, I find out that it was a good idea to make them turn on themselves (I had many problems during the launch breaking some of the engines of the Tylo lander).

I also had problems when separating the tanks of the orbiter, I put the decoupler near the center and structural stuff touched the Tylos lander fuel tank so that it exploded during my first launch... 5 crew members dead. Decoupling those parts engine cut is far more secured and worked.

Then came the Jool push, I had some problem with the tubes between the fuel tanks and fixed it manually and I burnt far more fuel than I expected. I start worrying about the trip back.

http://imgur.com/a/5MM0I

Jool System entry and Laythe landing.

Aerobraking in the green atmosphere, go near Laythe, and drop a plane there.

There I encounter a first problem, the rocket engines of the plane does not work before the wings are drop. Thus I was not able to correct the trajectory in order to go down in the Laythe atmosphere. I had to modify the trajectory of the mother ship, drop the second plane, and fix the trajectory again in order to avoid Laythe with the mother Ship. The first plan will be used to land on Pol.

One Kerbal landed ! I started playing in the gravity field in order to pass near Tylo and dropped the heavy lander.

http://imgur.com/a/arShq

Others landings

The landing on Tylo was, as expected, hard and fuel consuming but it end up without breaking essential stuff and I should be able to take off. The first plane had no problem to go to Pol. I then go back to the mother ship. It is very low on fuel...

I launched the 2 mini landers, one is going to Bop, the other will fly as a backup.

Lots of gravity playing later in order to join Vall at low speed, I also made a long burn witht eh mother ship to improve that.

I dropped the lander, took all the fuel of the second one to the mother ship tanks and drop it as another backup ion ship.

Vall landing was easy, the hard part was to make it keeping enough fuel in order to be able to go back from Vall to the mother ship, and then having the mother ship able to go back to Kerbin.

And the last landing happened on Bop.

http://imgur.com/a/JLqD2

Time to plant the flags !

And now, we will try to go back !

The plane worked well on Laythe, even having a tube problem linking the rocket fuel tanks, it was able to go fast with the jet engine, orbit using the rocket engines, and go back to the mother ship with the ion engines.

The Vall lander worked also very well, the problem with it was the lack of fuel for braking to its target and land.

Tylo lander was almost able to go to the mother ship without using the ion engines !

The way back from Pol was also easy.

Going back from Bop was difficult. The angle of Bop orbit was different to the mother ship one, and I burnt all the xenon without being able to join the mother ship. I used one of the backup ship, came to it breaking one of its solar panel, pickup the Kerbal and managed to have it go back to the mother ship.

Every one is happy to go back to better living conditions !

And now the fly back to Kerbing, I had 2k DV and needed 1.5k !

When I landed, I figured out the cupola was not put in right position, the pilot had to jump to the ground

http://imgur.com/a/PHsXq

Edited August 31, 2014 by Pamynx

[Laie]

FAR makes the atmospheres more tricky, and so the challenge harder. I guess NEAR has parts which are better than the stock parts, so that would make the challenge easier.

I don't have experience with NEAR so if it is stockalike then let me know and I will consider it.

NEAR is an atmosphere workover, sort of an "FAR light".

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/86419-0-24-2-NEAR-A-Simpler-Aerodynamics-Model-v1-1-1-7-25-14

It doesn't sound as if it came with any parts at all.

[Ziv]

NEAR is an atmosphere workover, sort of an "FAR light".

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/86419-0-24-2-NEAR-A-Simpler-Aerodynamics-Model-v1-1-1-7-25-14

It doesn't sound as if it came with any parts at all.

...then you didn't check the links at the mod list: FAR, NEAR Future Technologies

NEAR is that ion/electro/etc. propulsion part set, not the aerodynamics model.

[goldenpsp]

FAR makes the atmospheres more tricky, and so the challenge harder. I guess NEAR has parts which are better than the stock parts, so that would make the challenge easier.

I don't have experience with NEAR so if it is stockalike then let me know and I will consider it.

In nutshell, NEAR is FAR without the mach effects. No parts involved.

edit- from your reply above. It was less about the banned Near future tech, and more a question why FAR was listed in allowed but not NEAR. (annoying having multiple mods with similar names)

Edited August 31, 2014 by goldenpsp

[Ziv]

In nutshell, NEAR is FAR without the mach effects. No parts involved.

edit- from your reply above. It was less about the banned Near future tech, and more a question why FAR was listed in allowed but not NEAR. (annoying having multiple mods with similar names)

Oh, I see. Hmm, tell me more about NEAR and I consider allowing it, if you want.

Yeah, same name isn't god. I edited the first page that if you would see a mod in the list then link it.

[goldenpsp]

Oh, I see. Hmm, tell me more about NEAR and I consider allowing it, if you want.

Yeah, same name isn't god. I edited the first page that if you would see a mod in the list then link it.

NEAR is written by the same mod author as FAR. As far as telling more, the summary from the OP of that thread I think does the best job.

What it does that is similar to FAR:

--Drag is based on shape and orientation

--Body lift from parts

--Infiniglide wings are gone, and now follow a velocity² proportionality like they should.

--Payload fairings and cargo bays function properly

--Vehicle stability does need to be considered when building rockets and planes

What it doesn't do, that FAR does:

--Changes in physics with Mach number

--Complicated changes in wing lift and drag due to other parts around them

--Aerodynamic dis-assembly (though they can still be broken off if they overload the stock joints)

--Complicated aerodynamic analysis tools in the editor

[Ziv]

Yeah I read that there, I mean, what does it change in gameplay, especially on Kerbin and Laythe? Is it easier or harder, does it mean more fuel or less, etc...