Would Laythe really be habitable, Redux

[Holo]

The old thread was necroed then locked, but some interesting points were brought up. To continue the heated debate, I bring you this thread.

Stats about Laythe

Source: Kerbal Knowledge Base

Physical Characteristics

Eq. Radius: 500 km

Area: 3.142E+12 m²

Mass: 2.94E+22 kg

GM: 1.962E+12 m³/s²

ASL Gravity: 0.8 g

Escape Velocity: 2801.4 m/s

Rotation Period: 14h, 43m, 0s

SOI: 3724 km

Atmospheric Characteristics

Atmosphere Present: Yes

Scale Height: 4 km

Atmos. Height: 50,000 m

Atmos. Pressure: 0.8 atm

ASL Temperature: 4.69 °C

Scientific Reports from Laythe

Source: Game Files

[spoiler ALERT]

Edited November 12, 2013 by Holo

[FITorion]

In our own solar system we have Europa. It's covered in water ice which is floating on top of liquid water heated by the heat generated from the tidal forces from Jupiter. Io which is closer to Jupiter has so much heat that its volcanoes resurface the moon in very short time periods.

It is not inconceivable to me that a moon could exist in a zone where this tidal heating was enough to have a warm surface with liquid water and an atmosphere just like Laythe.

The problem as I see it is the radiation environment that close to a Gas giant like Jupiter. The moons of Jupiter do not have their own magnetic fields like Earth. They do have weak fields induced by Jupiter's field. Given that I doubt they are strong enough to protect the surface from the radiation. I don't see why a moon couldn't have a strong magnetic field though ... and we have no data on Laythe's field... so ... It's possible.

For all of the above I'm ignoring scale. None of KSP would work in the real world without scaling it up to real world sizes.

[Richy teh space man]

As it is, yeah it would be habitable, if a little chilly.

However.. I believe volcanoes are an idea being considered for addition later, and possibly radiation from Jool as well, which would make it inhospitable.

[jfjohnny5]

Habitable by humans? Well of course not. That's just silly! But maybe a short, alien race of little green men with cylindrical heads... They might be able to live there just fine I would imagine. Especially if they all had the same haircut. That would be critical, obviously.

[zynar]

I think the EVA reports say it all...

Edited November 12, 2013 by zynar

[MrPopcup]

It depends, if laythe has a strong magnetic field and atmosphere then it may survive and be habitable, though it's really close to jool, the tidal forces will rip the surface apart and it'll make volcanos

[toomuchbrew]

....and possibly radiation from Jool as well, which would make it inhospitable.

I really had no idea gas giants emit radiation. This is interesting. I am running to wiki

[phunk]

I really had no idea gas giants emit radiation. This is interesting. I am running to wiki

They don't emit it (other than some infrared), their giant magnetic fields channel solar and cosmic radiation into belts. Like the Van Allen belts around Earth, only much bigger.

[RuBisCO]

An atmosphere as thick as Laythe's would defend against radiation from "Jool", just as our atmosphere defends us from the radiation impingement of the auroras. Our magnetic fields channels particles of X-ray/Gamma ray energies into the high latitudes and no one dies of radiation exposure from it, because all the radiation is absorbed many kilometers above by the air which re-emits it out as pretty colours. Laythe if it has a magnetic field likely would be attached to Jools and radiation would stream into its polar regions making a continues aurora.

[SyberSmoke]

Radiation around gas giants is very high. It is not that the planets emit radiation, but that their magnetic fields trap solar radiation much like earths Van Allen Belt does. This trapped radiation is accelerated and forms into belts of radiation. The radiation is strong enough to knock out probes and electronics. And if a human were to enter one of these belts, your life would be measured in minutes.

The only way to approach would be in a heavily shielded vessel. Either using conventional material shielding (Lead or other materials), or to have your ship protected by a suitably strong magnetic bubble like the earth generates. This is not so far fetched as scientists have been looking into electromagnetic shielding for space craft and station for some time (not like Star Trek Shields). And they can generate them, the problem is the mass of the devices so far and the power requirements. But new materials are looking promising, and a hybrid system could be possible.

An atmosphere as thick as Laythe's would defend against radiation from "Jool", just as our atmosphere defends us from the radiation impingement of the auroras. Our magnetic fields channels particles of X-ray/Gamma ray energies into the high latitudes and no one dies of radiation exposure from it, because all the radiation is absorbed many kilometers above by the air which re-emits it out as pretty colours. Laythe if it has a magnetic field likely would be attached to Jools and radiation would stream into its polar regions making a continues aurora.

Technically not true, the atmosphere is not dense enough to deflect solar radiation. The majority of the solar radiation is deflected thanks to the earths magnetic field. In fact if the Earth did not have it's magnetic field, much of the atmosphere would simply blow off because of the solar winds and we would be more like Mars.

Also consider that Laythe, if it did have a magnetic field, would still be subject to intense radiation. The radiation trapped by Jool magnetic field would be accelerated, the particles could literally blow Laythes field apart.

Some reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetosphere_of_Jupiter

Edited November 12, 2013 by SyberSmoke

[Bekiekutmoar]

I consider Laythe as a virtual sterile, windy and wet object with maybe a primitive form of life in the deepest part of the oceans. The great potential of this moon (given the oceans, oxygen and temperature) has been cancelled out due to Jool's radiation. You could consider Laythe as Christmas and Jool as a giant Grinch.

[SyberSmoke]

I consider Laythe as a virtual sterile, windy and wet object with maybe a primitive form of life in the deepest part of the oceans. The great potential of this moon (given the oceans, oxygen and temperature) has been cancelled out due to Jool's radiation. You could consider Laythe as Christmas and Jool as a giant Grinch.

Well...like is possible. There are things on this planet that defy reason. Heck we have found bacteria that eat and gain sustenance from radioactive materials or are actually made using Silicon as their base material instead of Carbon. So who knows, there could be life that can flourish in such an environment. It would be an interesting addition if a Kerbal went to Laythe and saw little purple Kerbals standing there looking back.

[phunk]

are actually made using Silicon as their base material instead of Carbon.

We've never found that.

[Brotoro]

We have no data on gas planets the size of Venus (which is what Jool is), so there is no saying how strong its magnetic field is. But the magnetic fields of the smaller jovian planets in our solar system (which are many times more massive than Jool) are much weaker than Jupiter's magnetic field. But I could believe Jool having a magnetic field with a strength on the order of Earth's.

Laythe's atmosphere is amazingly thick for such a small body (0.8 bar) so it would be effective in stopping the high energy particles in Jool's radiation belts that hit Laythe. I wouldn't be worried about Kerbol's stellar wind stripping off the atmosphere from Laythe because: a) it obviously hasn't, since the atmosphere is there, and if Jool's magnetic field is strong enough to deflect Kerbol's wind from around the system, it may well protect Laythe's atmosphere from that.

We don't know whether or not Laythe has a magnetic field, since we don't have any experience with objects of that size and mass...so it might have one until the devs tell us otherwise. It certainly should have a molten interior from tidal heating, and it has quite a rapid rotation even though it's tidally locked (because of its fast orbit).

[Cheaterman]

Brotoro - nice, but I think we should rather assume that non-weightless fundamental particles basically weight 10 times heavier in the Kerbol system. As such, consider Jool as being a Jupiter-massive-planet. Other than that, Laythe doesn't have a moon (a protoplanet collision would melt the planet and force heavier elements near the center), and its ground colour (when not standing in the sand) suggests that heavy materials exist on the surface, therefore not forming a huge, rotating, conductive core like Earth, that would deflect whatever radiation Jool would throw at it (that is - according to the Solar system - about 1.5 times as powerful as whatever Kerbol would carry from such a distance).

Indeed, life in the oceans of Laythe is non-optional: it resides too close to the Kerper Belt (HarvesteR said long ago they will put asteroïds in KSP) for not having experienced comet/asteroid collision, leading to amino acids presence in the water. However, radiation would destroy nucleic acid if life was to come out of the oceans, so I guess it's indeed confined there.

[FITorion]

Well...like is possible. There are things on this planet that defy reason. Heck we have found bacteria that eat and gain sustenance from radioactive materials or are actually made using Silicon as their base material instead of Carbon. So who knows, there could be life that can flourish in such an environment. It would be an interesting addition if a Kerbal went to Laythe and saw little purple Kerbals standing there looking back.

Citation needed.

To my knowledge we have never found any silicon based life and the idea that it is possible is still only that.

[Kinglet]

In our own solar system we have Europa. It's covered in water ice which is floating on top of liquid water heated by the heat generated from the tidal forces from Jupiter. Io which is closer to Jupiter has so much heat that its volcanoes resurface the moon in very short time periods.

It is not inconceivable to me that a moon could exist in a zone where this tidal heating was enough to have a warm surface with liquid water and an atmosphere just like Laythe.

The problem as I see it is the radiation environment that close to a Gas giant like Jupiter. The moons of Jupiter do not have their own magnetic fields like Earth. They do have weak fields induced by Jupiter's field. Given that I doubt they are strong enough to protect the surface from the radiation. I don't see why a moon couldn't have a strong magnetic field though ... and we have no data on Laythe's field... so ... It's possible.

For all of the above I'm ignoring scale. None of KSP would work in the real world without scaling it up to real world sizes.

Exactly when I read this my Tv showed Europa

[Brotoro]

Brotoro - nice, but I think we should rather assume that non-weightless fundamental particles basically weight 10 times heavier in the Kerbol system. As such, consider Jool as being a Jupiter-massive-planet...

No, I know that Jool is NOT a Jupiter-mass object because of how long an orbital period is at a given distance from it. Jool's mass is about the mass of Venus. Materials on the KSP planets are NOT ten times heavier than corresponding materials here on Earth (the VAB data about the sizes and masses of rocket parts tells us this). The only strange thing that must be going on is that many of the planets and moons in KSP must have a superdense mater at their cores to give them the overall average density we observe...but the outsides can be normal matter. Jool is one of the few objects in the Kerbol system that could be built entirely from normal matter, being of a mass and density that is not unreasonable. If you colored Venus green, spun it up, and put it where Jool is, it would look almost identical to Jool.

[SyberSmoke]

We've never found that.

Ok, I was a little off...they have found one using Arsenic. Link: http://gizmodo.com/5704158/nasa-finds-new-life

-----

To Brotoro: Well there are a couple angles. Really all of our math is based around the idea that gravity, mass, and size are relative to what we know. Most of the values are arbitrary, we had to make something up, so meters, tons, grams, etc are just values we invented.

So it could be reasonable to say that the Kerbals did the same. Their values, though understandable to us, are based on their perspective. Just because the math is the same does not mean they have the same factors involved. Who knows, may be their 1G is really .5G for us, but because they are there...it is the basis for their math.

It is like wondering if Kerbin can be translated to Dirt in their language...Since we call our planet dirt.

Edited November 12, 2013 by SyberSmoke

[Rokker]

The only way to approach would be in a heavily shielded vessel. Either using conventional material shielding (Lead or other materials), or to have your ship protected by a suitably strong magnetic bubble like the earth generates.

Use heavy lead shielding for high-energy proton and electron radiation? Lol, that is a terrible idea. Lead, and in fact no metals at all, should not be used to shield the particle radiation inside any magnetosphere, that would simply induce Bremsstrahlung causing an increase in x-rays inside the vehicle. This radiation only needs to be shielded by wood, plastic, water (or urine built up over time is a suggestion i've heard), acrylic, basic insulation (as was used in the Apollo missions). And when metal must be used on a ship, the best option is the least dense metal possible that could satisfy the need.

As for the matter of shielding yourself on Laythe, I would recommend either a submarine/subterranian base which would cut down on mass required to take there significantly along with the mild/occasional use of medicines currently being tested by NASA that slow cell division and allow cells to heal from damage

[toomuchbrew]

They don't emit it (other than some infrared), their giant magnetic fields channel solar and cosmic radiation into belts. Like the Van Allen belts around Earth, only much bigger.

ah. I did some research. I was thinking gamma, uva and uv be. I should have been thinking types of thermal radiation like ir. It's interesting that other than Uranus, our gas giants emit more energy then they receive from the sun. I guess Uranus is a deep dark place indeed.

[DaveofDefeat]

I'm pretty sure a planet like Laythe, and most of the planets and moons in ksp, can't exist or at least couldn't form naturally I don't know how a planet like Laythe would get its thick atmosphere or be as incredibly dense as it is. like denser than uranium at room temperature dense.

[Rokker]

I'm pretty sure a planet like Laythe, and most of the planets and moons in ksp, can't exist or at least couldn't form naturally I don't know how a planet like Laythe would get its thick atmosphere or be as incredibly dense as it is. like denser than uranium at room temperature dense.

Honestly Laythe's atmosphere is unimpressive and could easily be accomplished if the aforementioned density wasn't unrealistic, just look at Titan.

[Holo]

I think the EVA reports say it all...

What if the Kerbal had Scuba gear? The pressure and temperature is good, and the atmosphere contains oxygen. All you really need is some kind of filter to clear out the unbreathable segment of the atmosphere.

Speaking of unbreathable segment, what could it be made of? I have a list of atmosphereogens somewhere, I'll check it against Laythe.

be as incredibly dense as it is. like denser than uranium at room temperature dense.

When comparing KSP to real life, it's good practice to pretend that everything has normal density and 10x greater radii. Otherwise, it's impossible to compare to reality and that's not fun or interesting.

[Brotoro]

I think Laythe's atmosphere is VERY impressive. Other than Titan, no moon in our solar system has a substantial atmosphere (anywhere near as thick as Laythe's atmosphere).

Also, the fact that Laythe has a lot of oxygen (enough to run jet engines) would indicate to me that Laythe has photosynthetic life, since I can't understand how it would have an atmosphere so far out of chemical equilibrium if it weren't for life.