[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[Senshi]

Low perfomance in KSP (as in low fps) is almost always caused by the CPU being overpowered. It's much more CPU-intensive than most regular games, while the graphics card will just yawn.

The current versions of ECLSS do come with some perfomance issues once you have multiple vessels in space, though this usually is represented by a periodic FPS drop every couple of seconds (mini-freeze). If you experience a constant crawl, I don't think it's about ECLSS. For debugging, you should try disabling that mod, however. The same goes for RT2: If you think RT2 is at fault, just disable the plugin for a test run. But take care ONLY to remove the plugin, not the entire folder, as missing parts could cause some vessels being removed from your save. E.g. just remove GameData\RemoteTech2\Plugins\RemoteTech2.dll to test if the RT plugin is at fault.

[MedievalNerd]

I've been having a persistent issue with TreeEdit. I can load and modify trees just fine and save them. They will persist for a while without issue. However, soon the tree.cfg file is rendered completely blank and the tree is reverted to default. I can normally reload it without issue but it's annoying enough that I've stopped playing with it. It seems to happen most often when I'm transmitting science but I haven't pinned down a cause yet. Any idea if this is a problem with TreeEdit or another mod?

That's a first, haven't noticed this issue myself. Do you only have TreeEdit or also have TreeLoader? If so, make sure to only have TreeEdit installed, not both.

I'm patiently waiting for r4m0n to resurface, I definitely want it out on TreeLoader which will make things easier.

[CheaterEater]

That's a first, haven't noticed this issue myself. Do you only have TreeEdit or also have TreeLoader? If so, make sure to only have TreeEdit installed, not both.

I'm patiently waiting for r4m0n to resurface, I definitely want it out on TreeLoader which will make things easier.

I've tried it with and without and the problem persists in both cases.

[Guest]

That's a first, haven't noticed this issue myself. Do you only have TreeEdit or also have TreeLoader? If so, make sure to only have TreeEdit installed, not both.

I'm patiently waiting for r4m0n to resurface, I definitely want it out on TreeLoader which will make things easier.

When you get published to tree loader will version updates become automatic, or will we still need to select "updates trees" from muloader each new version?

[MedievalNerd]

When you get published to tree loader will version updates become automatic, or will we still need to select "updates trees" from muloader each new version?

There will be one live public version, and from what I understand you'll have to start a new career after each update.

[Jobin]

Turns out it was ECLSS. Deleted the plugin dlls and now its running silky smooth thanks for the suggestion.

[Guest]

Turns out it was ECLSS. Deleted the plugin dlls and now its running silky smooth thanks for the suggestion.

Could someone give me a quick overview of how TAC & ECLSS work differently, i have used TAC alot and know it well, but not ECLSS and in reading the forum page its hard to understand how they are different. Anyone have experience using both tell me just hoe ECLSS behaves different?

ALSO interstellar got an update and now posts a compatibility fix for <FS real fuels by saying: "If you are a fan of the RealFuels version of ModularFuelSystems, you can download a new and updated compatibility file here: MFS-RealFuels2.zip. There should be a ModuleManager patch available with RealFuels to do this soon"

Should we download this compatibility fix or has your package taken this into account???

Edited November 30, 2013 by Guest

[MedievalNerd]

Turns out it was ECLSS. Deleted the plugin dlls and now its running silky smooth thanks for the suggestion.

If you are having performance issues with ECLSS please go post your logs on the ECLSS page. Asmi is still in the process of doign performance tweaks, so it's always good to share the logs with him.

The logs make all the difference!

Cheers,

[MedievalNerd]

Could someone give me a quick overview of how TAC & ECLSS work differently, i have used TAC alot and know it well, but not ECLSS and in reading the forum page its hard to understand how they are different. Anyone have experience using both tell me just hoe ECLSS behaves different?

ALSO interstellar got an update and now posts a compatibility fix for <FS real fuels by saying: "If you are a fan of the RealFuels version of ModularFuelSystems, you can download a new and updated compatibility file here: MFS-RealFuels2.zip. There should be a ModuleManager patch available with RealFuels to do this soon"

Should we download this compatibility fix or has your package taken this into account???

ECLSS also tracks power consumption, which is what I personally find awesome.

If this update occurred post V18b, then no it's not supported. So you should apply whatever fix is available. I'll check with Nathan prior to V19 release.

Right now I have to go over the entire values set for experiment conditions, seems the method i'm using isn't pooling the values the same way that the stock experiments are working. IE, I'm not able to get 'in space low' on Duna, but a stock experiment does find it.

I want to get that sorted before I continue working on the probe overhaul.

Cheers,

[Hogbobson]

Hello there! New guy on the forums. Hogbobson's the name!

I've installed a helluva lot of mods to get this Realistic Overhaul thing to work, and I am really excited to get going. Alas, when I start a new game and look for your Tech Tree, MedievalNerd, I cannot seem to find it. I do not have TreeLoader (or I am too incompetent to find it), but the RPL doesn't show up in the loader, even after I selected stock at the startup.

Could anyone please help me?

Edited November 30, 2013 by Hogbobson

[BrickedKeyboard]

Ok, so I figured out the capsule lift problem from yesterday (turns out SAS can do the same thing as cheating to change the center of gravity of a capsule).

So I decided I needed to launch some comsats (since without life support, I'll need to send some probes).

So there's some cool looking AIES antenna. However, you cannot select a target with them, and there is no range listed. I installed the very latest version of remote tech, right off the forum page, and they still don't work.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16656673/aeis%20probes.png

Am I doing something wrong, or are these antenna not working? If they don't work, why are they in the tech tree instead of the node "things that don't work"?

Is there some unofficial patch buried in the forums somewhere that I was supposed to have installed?

I only have the part mods AIES and Novapunch, btw, because another poster on here said that KW rocketry has a lot of duplicate parts.

[Guest]

Just a question about the range of "KSC mission control's" comms, would it be possible to have it "evolve/upgrade" to the furthest range dish unlocked in the tech tree?? I have noticed that i can get around the small KSC comms range by deploying a simple probe core with a comms dish on it in between 2 girders covered in enough solar panels to charge it full in the day and enough batteries to last over night on 4x mini-landing gear powered either an "ant engine" or single "place anywhere 7 linear RCS port" (or by rover wheels once unlocked) to "drive/steer" off the runway/launch pad. But once budgets come into play it will be abit wasteful to have to do this. I know we can alter its range via cfg file edits but is it possible to attach its range to tech tree nodes? It would feel far more realistic if the KSC had the "latest" comms dish installed by default (even if at a dishes $$ cost) than to use a "ground comms relay buggy/rover".

Edited November 30, 2013 by Guest

[lmw5201]

Is there some unofficial patch buried in the forums somewhere that I was supposed to have installed?

Yes, you're right. You have to put RT2 AIES compatibility cfg into your RT2 folder.

Cfg file is available at AIES post.

And also, you'll have to tweak 'Energycost' of each dishes in order to use them in real scale universe.

Edited November 30, 2013 by lmw5201

[Guest]

Did you notice your altered probes for your custom missions have 0.00 torque in all 3 categories (pitch/yaw/roll), is this the way they are intended to be? a rating of atleast 0.1 would make them possible to control (without using rocket thrust vectoring or needing to add a separate reaction wheel or rcs and mono just to get any control at all). Or do probes IRL have no internal reaction wheels and this reflects this??

Edited November 30, 2013 by Guest

[spudcosmic]

Will we ever be getting manned pod experiments much like the probe experiments? So far there really isn't much of a point to manned missions because you usually soak up all the research points with your probes and all you're left with is the lame crew reports.

[MedievalNerd]

Will we ever be getting manned pod experiments much like the probe experiments? So far there really isn't much of a point to manned missions because you usually soak up all the research points with your probes and all you're left with is the lame crew reports.

Howdy, and yes.

Rough plans for V19:

Tech Tree:

#1 - Overhaul of probe & Comms tech line.

#2 - Updates to science tech line.

#3 - Adding of new LAZOR breakdown (by lazor color)

#4 - Adding new Infernal Robotics breakdown. (By size)

#5 - Some edits to KSPI part placement

Probes:

#1 - "New Models": Explorer 1, Sputnik 2 & 3. Will try to make a pioneer and Lunas.

#2 - Overhaul of Experiments names/amount. (To reflect actual experiments performed by the probes)

#3 - Implementation of Video & Photo 'Data Collection'.

#4 - Impact probe detection method. (Most likely for Luna 2 only for now, and an overture for the later, an actual, impact probes)

#5 - Full pass over probes; torque, internal antennas, battery and power consumption.

Manned Experiments:

#6 - Implementation of first Manned experiments; (At least Mercury, perhaps Gemini experiments too)

Misc:

#7 - Full debuging of situational detection to match RSS values or the other way around. Currently there are some inconsistencies of the institutional detection on other planets. This is kind of major and I want to get this fixed before working on anything else. But a fix/solution was devised last night, just need time to do some data collection and discuss it over with Nathan since we might need to tweak the Celestial params of the new bodies.

And just a quick note to all you nice people trying out the tree & mod combo. Since this "project" is still in Alpha I apologize for any weirdness or uneven balances. As some of you might have noticed the scope of this tech tree reaches far beyond simply placing parts in nodes, but deals with science progression and game balance as well. So fully adapting so many parts and mods to fit well into this vision is extremely time consuming and prone to human errors. I often end up working until the wee hours of the morning, so sometimes I overlook things. I'd dare say that things are at least heading in a consistent upwards direction, I'm going to try and make V19 as 'polished' as I can, but it will still be in the Alpha stage. For me Alpha is when not only balance isn't fully done, but that key features are also missing/maybe broken.

Bear with me, we'll make it happen. I could have continued working on this solo and in a bubble, but I really needed to start getting people's feedback/experimece on my custom experiment concept to see if it was making sense, working, etc. The feedback some of you have provided has been very helpful and helped make things get better faster.

Ok, so I figured out the capsule lift problem from yesterday (turns out SAS can do the same thing as cheating to change the center of gravity of a capsule).

So I decided I needed to launch some comsats (since without life support, I'll need to send some probes).

So there's some cool looking AIES antenna. However, you cannot select a target with them, and there is no range listed. I installed the very latest version of remote tech, right off the forum page, and they still don't work.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16656673/aeis%20probes.png

Am I doing something wrong, or are these antenna not working? If they don't work, why are they in the tech tree instead of the node "things that don't work"?

Is there some unofficial patch buried in the forums somewhere that I was supposed to have installed?

I only have the part mods AIES and Novapunch, btw, because another poster on here said that KW rocketry has a lot of duplicate parts.

KW rocketry does not have duplicate parts, what it has is superfluous fuel tanks. (Since if you use stretchy, you don't need all those dozens of variations in tank sizes/lenghts). You should very much so have KW since some key engines are using those models!

I'll check with Nathan and make sure to include AIES compatibility file if it's not int he stock RT2. Sorry about that.

Did you notice your altered probes for your custom missions have 0.00 torque in all 3 categories (pitch/yaw/roll), is this the way they are intended to be? a rating of atleast 0.1 would make them possible to control (without using rocket thrust vectoring or needing to add a separate reaction wheel or rcs and mono just to get any control at all). Or do probes IRL have no internal reaction wheels and this reflects this??

Yes, reaction wheels in stock are 'way' overpowered, and basically remove the need for RCS thrusters to perform attitude control. (Except for translation)

Just a question about the range of "KSC mission control's" comms, would it be possible to have it "evolve/upgrade" to the furthest range dish unlocked in the tech tree?? I have noticed that i can get around the small KSC comms range by deploying a simple probe core with a comms dish on it in between 2 girders covered in enough solar panels to charge it full in the day and enough batteries to last over night on 4x mini-landing gear powered either an "ant engine" or single "place anywhere 7 linear RCS port" (or by rover wheels once unlocked) to "drive/steer" off the runway/launch pad. But once budgets come into play it will be abit wasteful to have to do this. I know we can alter its range via cfg file edits but is it possible to attach its range to tech tree nodes? It would feel far more realistic if the KSC had the "latest" comms dish installed by default (even if at a dishes $$ cost) than to use a "ground comms relay buggy/rover".

Cilph is working on code to implement remote stations. And with MCE there would be a plan to 'buy' them. So yes there is a plan for this. It should be known that DSN was built pretty early on, so it's a bit of a 'gamey' challenge to have to do a sat network so early on to keep contact with probes as they orbit the earth. I don't know when Cilph plans to implement this, he did mention a big change to the settings file for the next version. (I'm assuming it might be this, but no promises lol)

Yes, you're right. You have to put RT2 AIES compatibility cfg into your RT2 folder.

Cfg file is available at AIES post.

And also, you'll have to tweak 'Energycost' of each dishes in order to use them in real scale universe.

Actually, you can just edit the settings file of RT2 and set power con to 0.1, and range to x10. No need to manually tweak all the antennas. :/

Edited November 30, 2013 by MedievalNerd

[cktger]

Just downloaded your mod and i love it. But is there a way to fix the unbalance between fuel and liquid oxgen without using the action group settings of the modular fuel tanks? In the default setting i always run out of liquid oxygen.

[BrickedKeyboard]

So I hit the AIES forum thread, and search for the word "remote". Nope, not in the first page. So I go to the last page. Ah, a post mentioning the compatibility patch. But then I see another complaint - apparently the CoM for most parts is set wrong, and there is no fix.

Is AIES strictly necessary? I'm unclear on what all these part packs even bring to the table. I have heard that Novapunch is needed because it adds bigger engines which are needed to make a heavy lift vehicle to leave Kerbin. I am uncertain what AIES and KW Rocketry brings to the table. I'll try adding KW back with the fuel tank file folder deleted.

And, for that matter, why is B9 aerospace left out? It does offer some slick looking parts, and B9 seems to do a good job at setting the values to work well with FAR...

[sirklick]

Is AIES strictly necessary?

Not at all. The stock and RT2 dishes are enough to get by. The probe cores, utilities, and engines from AIES are nice to have however. Delete what doesn't make sense.

I'm unclear on what all these part packs even bring to the table. I have heard that Novapunch is needed because it adds bigger engines which are needed to make a heavy lift vehicle to leave Kerbin. I am uncertain what AIES and KW Rocketry brings to the table. I'll try adding KW back with the fuel tank file folder deleted.

With the use of stretchy tanks the tanks from these packs are not really necessary. KW and NP engines are almost a requirement the other parts I suggest you pick and choose. Example: I use the new large side-tanks and liquid engines from KW but nothing else. Similarly from NP I use the stack parachutes and liquid engines. The diversity of liquid engines between Stock, AIES, NP2, and KW is really what you are after.

And, for that matter, why is B9 aerospace left out

B9 does not have its own section of the tech tree, but it doesn't really need it. Most of the B9 aero parts unlock fairly sensibly as a part of the Aviation and Space Planes branch, the exception being certain engines, rcs, and structural elements, which are mostly under sensible tech nodes elsewhere.

[BrickedKeyboard]

Ok, so TLDR, install KW rocketry/Novapunch/AIES. Install the compatibility patch for AIES (not mentioned in the instructions here). Delete the fuel tank folders from AIES, Novapunch, but not the ones from KW rocketry.

Install B9 aerospace for the SABRE engines, maybe.

This is getting to be a complex set of instructions. It's not just that it is complex, but it varies extremely often. For instance, certain compatibility patches become obsolete and in fact destructive a day or two later. (for example, there's a KSP Interstellar/Real Fuel Compat patch that I think isn't needed anymore, but am uncertain)

And if a mistake is made because I did something wrong or didn't see a step or did a step I shouldn't have done, boom, there goes my save.

I know I seem like a complainer, and maybe I am compared to the pros here, but I feel like I have a legitimate point of view. This thing needs a modpack installer like they eventually invented for Minecraft.

[BrickedKeyboard]

Actually, you can just edit the settings file of RT2 and set power con to 0.1, and range to x10. No need to manually tweak all the antennas. :/

I have to do this? This is not already done in the tweak file included in 18b? I have to ask because if I do this but it was already tweaked, then I'm decreasing power costs by a factor of 100...

[sirklick]

Ok, so TLDR, install KW rocketry/Novapunch/AIES. Install the compatibility patch for AIES (not mentioned in the instructions here). Delete the fuel tank folders from AIES, Novapunch, but not the ones from KW rocketry.

Install B9 aerospace for the SABRE engines, maybe.

This is getting to be a complex set of instructions. It's not just that it is complex, but it varies extremely often. For instance, certain compatibility patches become obsolete and in fact destructive a day or two later. (for example, there's a KSP Interstellar/Real Fuel Compat patch that I think isn't needed anymore, but am uncertain)

And if a mistake is made because I did something wrong or didn't see a step or did a step I shouldn't have done, boom, there goes my save.

I know I seem like a complainer, and maybe I am compared to the pros here, but I feel like I have a legitimate point of view. This thing needs a modpack installer like they eventually invented for Minecraft.

There are some fundamental differences here. KSP mods/plugins are quite different then MC mods, I am not going to go into the details of how/why that is -they just are. This plugin (group of plugins really) is in early Alpha stage, as in there will be bugs and complications. KSP is in heavy development. The combination of the two means, if you don't like tweaking and starting saves over, do not use it. The mantra at the moment should be copy your KSP folder, add your mods, tweak until it works how you want, start a save, enjoy but do NOT change/update the mods installed unless you don't mind risking breaking your save. There is just too much change underway to make your experience/frustration not a reality. If you want a long lasting save, remove all of your mods and hope that Squad doesn't break it for you within the next update or two.

All that being said, feedback is I am sure what MedievalNerd is looking for. Things are somewhat complicated at the moment and that will likely change a bit as KSP and the mods in use mature. I recommend creating a KSP install instance like this:

1. Apply squad texture reduction to a copy of your stock folder.

2. Install KW, NP, AIES, B9, and apply texture reduction packs.

3. Remove the bits of what you installed in step 2 above that you don't want or can live without.

4. Install RT2 and any other interface mods (editor extensions etc).

5. Install this following the install directions.

6. Run KSP and create a sandbox save to make sure everything you need is accounted for and working

7. Figure out what is missing/broken and fix

8. Start a campaign save and select the proper tech tree making sure you hit F5 after picking it initially.

9. Enjoy and remember that updating any of the plugins for this install will quite possibly break your save. Always make a backup copy of your save if you absolutely must attempt an update.

[BrickedKeyboard]

Apparently, the memory reduction mod really works, sirklick. Using MedievalNerd's recommended installation I'm down to 2.46 gigabytes on load. (well, I did install the reduced texture packs for KW and NP and AIES)

[sirklick]

Apparently, the memory reduction mod really works, sirklick. Using MedievalNerd's recommended installation I'm down to 2.46 gigabytes on load. (well, I did install the reduced texture packs for KW and NP and AIES)

My Real Solar Install sits at just under 2.3 gig with the following:

AIES_Aerospace (probes and engines only)

B9 full (with texture reduction pack)

BobCat Sovietengines

BoulderCo TextureCompressor

Deadly Reentry

EditorExtensions

Engineer

EnhancedNavBall

FAR

KAS

Procedural fairings

Procedural wings

Kethane (Tanks removed)

Klockheed shuttle engines

KWRocketry (texture reduced and engines only)

Modular Fuel Tanks

Near Future Propulsion

NovaPunch2 (engines only)

PartHighlighter

RCSBuildAid

RealismOverhaul

RealSolarSystem

RemoteTech2

RLA PowerGeneration

RLA Stockalike

RPL Tweak Pack

SCANSat

Squad (texture reduced)

Stretchy Tanks

TAC Fuel Balancer

TreeEdit

Kerbal Alarm Clock

KSP Interstellar

MM 1.5

I like to keep RAM utilization < 2.6 to prevent paging on my older computer. The point of all this, I know it can be a somewhat complicated pain, but with some fiddling this works quite well considering its complexity. That so many mods work well together at all is somewhat of a minor miracle. Just please keep in mind that all of this is a WIP and save breaking and bugs are going to happen.

[123nick]

why do you need asmis life support mod AND tac life support? shouldnt you only need 1?