[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[MedievalNerd]

i have a question are stock nodes in this tree also so for mods thats not on list work with this?

I have to make a FAQ on the OP. lol

Yes, and no.

Yes: No stock tech nodes were deleted in the creation of RPL.

No: Because of the high number of tech lines, and the lack of stock nodes. It wasn't possible to keep stock nodes in relevant tech lines. So yes, parts will appear, but as to whether they'll appear somewhere where it makes sense, that's hit or miss.

[Scripto23]

Speaking of FAQ, I don't think this has been asked, but I see that MS18 is not currently compatible with Mission Controller. Will MS19 be compatible or is that for a later update?

[MedievalNerd]

Speaking of FAQ, I don't think this has been asked, but I see that MS18 is not currently compatible with Mission Controller. Will MS19 be compatible or is that for a later update?

What makes it incompatible? One could argue that the mission packs made for vanilla KSP will most likely be incompatible because of altitude references.

If you were asking more when I'd start doing MCE missions for RPL, I don't have a timeframe for that. The sprint is turned into a marathon so I'm trying to be realistic of what can be accomplished over weekends, without spending 'all' of my time against this. (I got to relax/enjoy mysel on the weekends at least a little bit, or else Monday is quite harsh when you get back to 'work'.) D:

[Ratzap]

Trying to launch a 23 tonne GS comm sat is turning into a real pain in the arse. I have level 5 engines and maxed out the stack stuff but anything I make with enough dV constantly breaks apart at the decouplers (even though I have struts and cross linkages all over the place). I could trim down the sat and launch more to compensate but then what is the point of having these 8m humongous engines in the pack if using them is impossible. The 20 minute flight to orbit doesn't help either of course, so much time waiting for the inevitable.

[MedievalNerd]

23 Tonnes!? Aren't geosynch sats more around 5 or 6 tonnes? (Haven't checked just from skewed memory).

Sounds pretty heavy!

EDIT: Yeah, that's quite heavy my friend.

Apollo 15

Command module: 5,809 kg

Service module: 24,523 kg

Total: 30,332 kg

[sidfu]

long as they appaer its fine if their order messed up for me.

[NathanKell]

Ratzap: with KJR?

[Ratzap]

Ratzap: with KJR?

Sure thing, latest one too (I also tried with the 1.7). No mistake, it's a big SoB rocket but even using the largest stack seps they break. Initially the radials were falling off too until I strapped things down with struts and reduced their size a bit. I'm using cryo tanks if that makes a difference.

I redesigned the end stage, got it 12t lighter and I'm reducing the lifter stages in increments until I can get it semi-reliable. I was planning on building a really big planetary return probe launcher too but the VAB filled up after just 3 stages. Is there a trick I'm missing to the RSS stuff?

[Scripto23]

What makes it incompatible? One could argue that the mission packs made for vanilla KSP will most likely be incompatible because of altitude references.

If you were asking more when I'd start doing MCE missions for RPL, I don't have a timeframe for that. The sprint is turned into a marathon so I'm trying to be realistic of what can be accomplished over weekends, without spending 'all' of my time against this. (I got to relax/enjoy mysel on the weekends at least a little bit, or else Monday is quite harsh when you get back to 'work'.) D:

I haven't actually tried it yet, I was just going off the information posted in the first post which lists its support as "not yet implemented", which I guess I misinterpreted as incompatible.

[MedievalNerd]

I haven't actually tried it yet, I was just going off the information posted in the first post which lists its support as "not yet implemented", which I guess I misinterpreted as incompatible.

Yup, so it's compatible but no missions are made for it yet. Why are there nobody making missions for RSS people with MCE?

I think it's a calling for someone...

[Ratzap]

Are the decouplers and resizes thereof supposed to have no breakingforce set? I went through the decouplers in GameData\RealismOverhaul\Parts\Stock_Resizes adding breakingforce and I can launch it now. I can only assume the sheer weight was crushing the decouplers or something.

[MedievalNerd]

Sure thing, latest one too (I also tried with the 1.7). No mistake, it's a big SoB rocket but even using the largest stack seps they break. Initially the radials were falling off too until I strapped things down with struts and reduced their size a bit. I'm using cryo tanks if that makes a difference.

I redesigned the end stage, got it 12t lighter and I'm reducing the lifter stages in increments until I can get it semi-reliable. I was planning on building a really big planetary return probe launcher too but the VAB filled up after just 3 stages. Is there a trick I'm missing to the RSS stuff?

Without seeing the rocket itself, or it's stats, it's hard to say whether you are missing something or not. Could you share some screenshots with the rocket's MJ stats? (DV, Weight, TWR, etc. per stage)

[Ratzap]

Without seeing the rocket itself, or it's stats, it's hard to say whether you are missing something or not. Could you share some screenshots with the rocket's MJ stats? (DV, Weight, TWR, etc. per stage)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71576136/Max%20dish%20bus%201a.craft

That was design 1, it just falls apart on the pad. Below is the much slimmed down version that I got into orbit (no fairing, just that weighed over 10 tonnes so I ditched it).

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71576136/Max%20dish%20bus%202b.craft

Another odd thing I noticed: when I got it into GSO and opened the solar panels, the satellite started twisting and tumbling. I had to put SAS on just to keep it still-ish facing the Sun. Has someone added solar sail type mechanics or something?

[MedievalNerd]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71576136/Max%20dish%20bus%201a.craft

That was design 1, it just falls apart on the pad. Below is the much slimmed down version that I got into orbit (no fairing, just that weighed over 10 tonnes so I ditched it).

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/71576136/Max%20dish%20bus%202b.craft

Another odd thing I noticed: when I got it into GSO and opened the solar panels, the satellite started twisting and tumbling. I had to put SAS on just to keep it still-ish facing the Sun. Has someone added solar sail type mechanics or something?

Oh those are the craft files. I'll see if I can take a look at some point. Could you just post the screenshots with the DV stats of MJ in the VAB?

And the solar sail, I think I read that this was a recent update to KSPI. Haven't taken the time to read the repercussions of that yet.

[Ratzap]

Oh those are the craft files. I'll see if I can take a look at some point. Could you just post the screenshots with the DV stats of MJ in the VAB?

And the solar sail, I think I read that this was a recent update to KSPI. Haven't taken the time to read the repercussions of that yet.

First one but this is irrelevant as it falls apart on the pad before launch every time. The zero dv lines are caused by the fairing decoupler.

Slimmed down second version, 1 in 6 launches maybe works if throttled to 25ms or less. Otherwise breaks apart despite strengthened decouplers.

And I found out why my satellite was twisting, when extended, the two red ringed panels below move inside the girder which causes spasmodic torque. Very odd.

[MedievalNerd]

That thing is huge my man! Do you really need all those dishes? 5 Giga and 3 small ones?

Try to designing a 5 to 6 ton GSO sat.

I don't know if you saw my post of the Apolo module's weight, but 22 tons is nearly heavy as the service module!

Apollo 15

Command module: 5,809 kg

Service module: 24,523 kg

Total: 30,332 kg

EDIT

Starting going through the tech tree, and holy molly. Modders have been busy little bees!

Edited February 8, 2014 by MedievalNerd

[NathanKell]

ratzap: Good god that's a Saturn V-class launcher. Yeah, I think you may be overengineering (or something)

I took your second craft file and rebuilt it to get a ~1700 ton craft that ended up having ~2000m/s spare. Here's how. (You really need IR so you can hinge those girders. As it stands I removed the second girder piece from each arm to make the arms shorter.) You end up with a "supersize" Atlas V. All at TL5, like your craft.

1. Delete everything under the J4R. Resize the tank such that you get ~2000m/s from that upper stage (should be enough for apogee kick and final plane change.)

2. Put a 8m fairing base under that, and fair the top. Should buldge out to about 12m? (with the second-girder-less arms)

3. Place a cryo stretchy under that. Widen it to 8m.

4. Place 3 cubic octos on the bottom and place 3x J7Rs (KW Vesta twins) on the struts. Fill/resize/fill tank to get about 8km/sec dV from the stage. Should end up with ignition TWR of about 1.2 or so.

5. Place an interstage adapter on the tank's bottom node and move it down and widen it to cover the interstage, and put the fairings on.

6. Place a regular superstretchy under that and widen to 8m. Put a LR88-4 under that (what you already had). Stretch until you have about 4-5km/sec dV from that stage (say, ignition TWR of about 1.35?)

Launch, burning to circularize somewhere around 300x300. Then at equatorial AN or DN burn to make a GTO. This should put your GEO apogee and AN (or DN) at roughly the same spot. Then ditch the second stage and do an apogee kick and plane change at apogee to circularize and shift inclination to 0.

Craft file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zub0h8uexqmysw1/Max%20dish%20bus%202c.craft

Note I'm launching from the Cape; if you're launching from the equator, you'll need even less dv and no plane change to speak of; then you can probably do it with 13.5-14km/sec total vacuum dV.

[Ratzap]

Need? Hell no but I was thinking ahead to larger loads like building stations etc or return trips to other planets. Maybe that won't be needed with this tree, who knows.

Nathan, yes I launched a couple today and had basically a stage and a half left after they were in place (4 to 5k dV). The first com sats I put up with 14k or so but since I was going for throw weight then slimmed these down they have loads of dV spare. I'll probably leave it now till 19 comes out then see where the science progression goes. I think the scale of the RSS stuff while realistic is fairly offputting to just potter about in.

[MedievalNerd]

Need? Hell no but I was thinking ahead to larger loads like building stations etc or return trips to other planets. Maybe that won't be needed with this tree, who knows.

Nathan, yes I launched a couple today and had basically a stage and a half left after they were in place (4 to 5k dV). The first com sats I put up with 14k or so but since I was going for throw weight then slimmed these down they have loads of dV spare. I'll probably leave it now till 19 comes out then see where the science progression goes. I think the scale of the RSS stuff while realistic is fairly offputting to just potter about in.

RSS + FAR totally brings about a huge engineering challenge. Where in stock KSP you can get away with insane designs, it won't fly with those 2 mods. (pun intended)

It's definitely not for everyone, because rather than slap something together and wing it. You'll probably have to spend a longer time engineering the rocket and making calculations and comparisons to maximize performance. Sometimes, and often, less is more.

When I first switched to RSS & FAR, I literally spent a whole weekend to figure out how to get a small sub 1 ton satellite in orbit. I was totally amazed how my past experience wasn't necessarily useful either.

Edited February 8, 2014 by MedievalNerd

[whorlwind]

When I first switched to RSS & FAR, I literally spent a whole weekend to figure out how to get a small sub 1 ton satellite in orbit. I was totally amazed how my past experience wasn't necessarily useful either.

Yeah, RSS in particular is definitely not something you should go to just because of some notion that more realistic = more fun, as there are many reasons the developers have balanced things to be as they are by default. I went to it because I wanted to find out what some of the real constraints of space flight are like, and have had fun using it as motivation to look at and duplicate specifications of the Apollo 11 craft and launcher. Before doing that I tried for several days to wing it (pun also intended) without any success even achieving orbit. As you said, the things that worked in vanilla, or even vanilla plus FAR, do not translate much at all to those that work in RSS. For one thing the first stage alone ends up being nearly as big as the VAB, and all together the ship is well outside the outer roof.

[MedievalNerd]

Yeah, RSS in particular is definitely not something you should go to just because of some notion that more realistic = more fun, as there are many reasons the developers have balanced things to be as they are by default. I went to it because I wanted to find out what some of the real constraints of space flight are like, and have had fun using it as motivation to look at and duplicate specifications of the Apollo 11 craft and launcher. Before doing that I tried for several days to wing it (pun also intended) without any success even achieving orbit. As you said, the things that worked in vanilla, or even vanilla plus FAR, do not translate much at all to those that work in RSS. For one thing the first stage alone ends up being nearly as big as the VAB, and all together the ship is well outside the outer roof.

It's all about being minimalistic about the payload. Vanilla KSP physics totally allow for very generous room to get very large payloads in orbit without much difficulty. So I think the biggest shock when switching over to RSS/FAR is that you really need to plan ahead and reconsider every single part of your payload. Do I really need this? Can I remove this part? Ever kg counts as it'll chew away at your final and total DV.

Another thing is TWR needs to be kept in check. I aim for 1.2 for the first stage and sub that for anything that is in orbit. Now that being said, don't forget to check your TWR for landers!

Another thing! Ascent profiles, I think people need to spend some time studying their and figuring out if they can optimize it. With Mech Jeb you can see your loses on a few factors. So sometimes it's also about optimizing the flight plan as much as the design of the rocket.

Edited February 9, 2014 by MedievalNerd

[kasperhangard]

I am really sorry if this has already been asked, but is it possible to play this with rss, just without the superduper large bodies? i mean, can you make the planets "kerbal size" and then reduce thrust and all of these parametres to balance it, or would it ruin the experience? i am asking on behalf of a friend, who really wants to use this pack, but just isn't comfortable that he has the patience, for everything to take like 10x longer because of the larger bodies.

hopefully i am understandable in this, i don't really know how to explain it!

[MedievalNerd]

I am really sorry if this has already been asked, but is it possible to play this with rss, just without the superduper large bodies? i mean, can you make the planets "kerbal size" and then reduce thrust and all of these parametres to balance it, or would it ruin the experience? i am asking on behalf of a friend, who really wants to use this pack, but just isn't comfortable that he has the patience, for everything to take like 10x longer because of the larger bodies.

hopefully i am understandable in this, i don't really know how to explain it!

Howdy Kasperhangard,

I think that 'could' be possible, if someone would go through RSS and change all the body diameters then fiddle with the model sizes? I personally wouldn't be interested in spending time towards that, considering how busy I am with RPL alone.

But at that point, you still have very large distances in between bodies, might as well play with stock KSP. (IE, RPL without RSS)

Or, just tell your friend to get familiar with the game and once they got a grasp on the core concepts. Start messing around with RSS & FAR. Although there would be a bit of a hand picking of some tweak files to not get things totally out of whack. IE, my hand rolled antenna and dish ranges. in stock KSP it'd be quite OP.

[kasperhangard]

Howdy Kasperhangard,

I think that 'could' be possible, if someone would go through RSS and change all the body diameters then fiddle with the model sizes? I personally wouldn't be interested in spending time towards that, considering how busy I am with RPL alone.

But at that point, you still have very large distances in between bodies, might as well play with stock KSP. (IE, RPL without RSS)

Or, just tell your friend to get familiar with the game and once they got a grasp on the core concepts. Start messing around with RSS & FAR. Although there would be a bit of a hand picking of some tweak files to not get things totally out of whack. IE, my hand rolled antenna and dish ranges. in stock KSP it'd be quite OP.

Ah, i was afraid that would be the answer. 'aight i'm just gonna force him to study hard on the TWR, ÃŽâ€V and more!

how is your progression with the release? is it "realistic"?

(I really should go to bed before the puns take over!)

[NathanKell]

There's a 1/10th real solar system cfg in the OP of the RSS thread. Then you can use KIDS to require real-size rockets by scaling all Isps to 1/3.

Note that ascents on RSS don't take 10x as long, it's more like 3x; and interplanetary burns are more like 2-3x as long at most. (After the burn, during the transit, you have warp anyway). Reentry does take a fair amount longer, but not excessive. Maybe 3-4x?