[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[Senshi]

Thanks, Nathan, for giving instructions on how to adapt this for Stock-scale folks. Maybe a condensed set of such instructions could be included in the OP on the next version? Including what entries in the tweak files have to be altered to be appropriate.

One question: What doe RftS stand for? I figured out all the other abbreviations, but not that one . Are those the KATO engines?

[NathanKell]

Yeah, probably good idea to add that to OP.

Yep, basically. KATO engines started out as the engines I used for my AAR (the KATO Space Race). When I rebooted it as Reaching for the Stars--and rescaled everything--I changed the abbreviation.

[MedievalNerd]

Yeah, with V18, I'll update the OP and have a little surprise in the making to make things even easier.

Stay tuned,

[andqui]

Just to make sure, the V18 on TreeEdit is not the updated one? I'm just waiting before I start another career.

[MedievalNerd]

Just to make sure, the V18 on TreeEdit is not the updated one? I'm just waiting before I start another career.

Not yet, I actually managed to make a "DEV" version which I'll be able to work on in between updates, instead of doing updates to the live version which is what sort of happened.

I tested the plugin with the new error messages and it's working OK. Not as neat as I want it but beggars cant' be choosers!

The sorting of the tree is done basically, but I'm still uncertain about how best to layout capsule progression (in terms of parts) and on the fence about the whole 'advanced probe' parts sub tree.

I'll probably leave it like this and release it along with the updated tweak pack and fixes.

I've added multiple TargetSituations for the Data Recorder, so a probe can group experiments of varying situations. IE, InSpaceHigh, InSpaceLow, SrfLanded. Don't laugh at the error message, since depending on whether the are multiple situations for a probe, you might see an extra comma or two.

[RaccoonTOF]

Perhaps suborbital hops? I smirk whenever I do this, throwing an enormous rocket away just to get a kerbal to the ice caps or badlands, but it works. You don't have to achieve orbit, and need only a fraction of the delta-v.

This is basically how I did my Kerbin biome explorations as well. I also got the second tier of fairings pretty early on so that I had access to the procedural interstage fairing, which makes things like this much easier with DR (you can just make an interstage-faired stage, with the heat shield on the top node then, allowing your "re-entry vehicle" to survive and then ditch it to land the probe under chutes).

Also remember that your first com network doesn't have to be geosynch. You can put up a bunch of sats into a lower orbit and just use the "free" (no energy requirement) always-on dipole omni antenna - you need a lot more sats than just the 3 that you would use for a geosynch network, but they are very easy to put into orbit and will give you full coverage of Kerbin.

EDIT: Also make sure you are taking as much advantage of FAR as you possibly can. I can't stress enough how important taking full advantage of both lift for suborbital hops/long gliding reentries and reduced drag by making longer but skinnier rockets is as far as reducing dV requirements. I am not currently using RSS true - but I have used it in the past (I just got tired of the random graphical issues on this laptop causing glitches which required me to restart KSP to fix - considering it takes about 20 minutes for all of the mods to load that I run ). I seem to recall that a suborbital probe design (using RT but using stock RT ranges and power values true) capable of reaching any biome on Kerbin with a full sensor suite AND a goo canister ran about 3500-4k dV required.

Edited November 23, 2013 by RaccoonTOF

[MedievalNerd]

Also remember that your first com network doesn't have to be geosynch. You can put up a bunch of sats into a lower orbit and just use the "free" (no energy requirement) always-on dipole omni antenna - you need a lot more sats than just the 3 that you would use for a geosynch network, but they are very easy to put into orbit and will give you full coverage of Kerbin.

Exactly. The lure of MC geosynch sat is large, but its' a quite DV expensive manover to setup. I tend to send a series of 3-4 statellites around LEO, so to have a 'chain' which then allows you do do some more interesting manovers with the increased communication with MC.

[RaccoonTOF]

Even in the stock scale game, if you pick your launch window correctly (getting a good gravity braking from Minmus itself, plus potentially a gravity assist from the Mun), it can require less dV to land on minmus than to get into geosynch orbit, so I've used that technique a number of times in other trees with RT installed. In fact, with a "perfect" launch window, you can actually put a long-range dish antenna into a co-orbit with Minmus (or fairly close to it - actually getting just the right "spin" from the pair of gravity assists is almost entirely based on luck on your first burn leaving Kerbin orbit due to the floating point inaccuracies) for cheaper dV than is required for a geostationary sat. This is not as useful with this set of tweaks due to the power requirements of the longer range antennas and limited early power generation, but you might take a look into what sorts of interesting gravity assist profiles you can find for wider coverage of the Kerbin system for your initial Mun/Minmus missions. You'll likely only be able to get 1-2 sats out there at best, and probably won't get full coverage, but they should give you a shot at getting a "far side" landing site to stay in comms.

[MedievalNerd]

Howdy everyone,

So with a few fixes and changes, with some light reorganization, I present you RPL Version 18:

V18a - Change Log

Tech Tree:

* Created a Realism MiniPack to minimize confusion/downloads. (link on OP)

* Reorganized some tech lines (placement wise)

* Reshuffled Engines to fit new tech levels of the MiniPack.

* Reshuffled Capsules tech line entirely, put non tweaked capsules later until they also get tweaked.

* Merged Adapters & Fairings

* Engineering now includes Structurals & Dockping Ports

* "new" Staging Tech line - Decouplers & Seperators + Parachutes.

* Added additional node for KAS. (Winches & Grapling comes in 2nd tier)

* Various other reshuffles to account for all the new parts. (struts, ports, adapters, etc.)

Plugin & Custom Experiments

* Fixed Lunar mission bug with not being able to perform mission while landed.

* Added multiple possible TargetSituations to Data recorder to allow grouping experiment of different situations within the same probe. (Cube2)

* Added Eve & Duna flybys data readings.

* Manned Capsules are available from Tier 1 Probes, but still more expensive.

* Added custom error messages for Data Recorder and Experiments. In order of importance they will say what is their TargetBody, TargetSituation(s).

Thank you everyone for the general feedback and comments.

I would like it if any of you have more specific suggestions for experiments (where, conditions, scan or sample, etc.), to please PM my with your suggestions, I'll be happy to implement them in the pack. This is all proving to be way more work than I over thought. But it's going to be fun down the road, right?

Here is the latest snapshot:

[Guest]

Howdy everyone,

So with a few fixes and changes, with some light reorganization, I present you RPL Version 18:

V18a - Change Log

Tech Tree:

* Created a Realism MiniPack to minimize confusion/downloads. (link on OP)

* Reorganized some tech lines (placement wise)

* Reshuffled Engines to fit new tech levels of the MiniPack.

* Reshuffled Capsules tech line entirely, put non tweaked capsules later until they also get tweaked.

* Merged Adapters & Fairings

* Engineering now includes Structurals & Dockping Ports

* "new" Staging Tech line - Decouplers & Seperators + Parachutes.

* Added additional node for KAS. (Winches & Grapling comes in 2nd tier)

* Various other reshuffles to account for all the new parts. (struts, ports, adapters, etc.)

Plugin & Custom Experiments

* Fixed Lunar mission bug with not being able to perform mission while landed.

* Added multiple possible TargetSituations to Data recorder to allow grouping experiment of different situations within the same probe. (Cube2)

* Added Eve & Duna flybys data readings.

* Manned Capsules are available from Tier 1 Probes, but still more expensive.

* Added custom error messages for Data Recorder and Experiments. In order of importance they will say what is their TargetBody, TargetSituation(s).

Thank you everyone for the general feedback and comments.

I would like it if any of you have more specific suggestions for experiments (where, conditions, scan or sample, etc.), to please PM my with your suggestions, I'll be happy to implement them in the pack. This is all proving to be way more work than I over thought. But it's going to be fun down the road, right?

Here is the latest snapshot:

will this negatively effect setting this up for stock scale? I am insanely IN love with this tech tree but dont know about going FULL RSS yet, (ps i was shocked when my 1st Kerbol system wide series of KEO commsats started exploding due to "waste heat" lol)

AND before i start this up for this version, what life support mod DO YOU SUGGEST? TAC or ECLSS?? i have used TAC before, but i want to get used to your "preferred" life support so i dont have issues when one gets dropped,

I SUGGEST you have a second "tweak" file for stock scale (atleast in terms of not having new engine mods which make no sense for stock scale, and RT2 ranges for stock scale version, so we dont have to edit your tweak each update)

Edit: Screw it i guess, i'll just try it as intended with RSS mod, less chance of me messing stuff up lol

AMAZING JOB ON ALL OF THIS, i am greatful!!!

Edited November 24, 2013 by Guest

[andqui]

I see you added FASA to the engines and parts list- does this need the "Real Gemini patch", or is it already balanced as needed? Great release, I'll test later when I have the time.

EDIT: Also, are real chutes and the deadly reentry shields integrated as well this iteration? FASA also has a recently released mod manager patch for Real Chutes- can we view your tweak/compilation as stand-alone, or do we need to make the others compatible with eachother as in this example? It's no problem if I need to do it myself; I'm just trying to figure out what's included and what isn't.

thanks

Edited November 24, 2013 by andqui

[Guest]

Ok i just tried my 1st loadup with RSS, anyone know what planets i should see in the radar center? i'm confused now

Edit: ok i just finished going over RSS forum...i get it now

Edited November 24, 2013 by Guest

[MedievalNerd]

will this negatively effect setting this up for stock scale? I am insanely IN love with this tech tree but dont know about going FULL RSS yet, (ps i was shocked when my 1st Kerbol system wide series of KEO commsats started exploding due to "waste heat" lol)

AND before i start this up for this version, what life support mod DO YOU SUGGEST? TAC or ECLSS?? i have used TAC before, but i want to get used to your "preferred" life support so i dont have issues when one gets dropped,

I SUGGEST you have a second "tweak" file for stock scale (atleast in terms of not having new engine mods which make no sense for stock scale, and RT2 ranges for stock scale version, so we dont have to edit your tweak each update)

Edit: Screw it i guess, i'll just try it as intended with RSS mod, less chance of me messing stuff up lol

AMAZING JOB ON ALL OF THIS, i am greatful!!!

I was in a rush just before supper time to release the pack, so that people could start enjoying this new version. But I might make a stock 'size' pack. But it would still need all those mods but instead of using the realmass/fuels, it would use stock mass/fuels. Obviously results may vary as I'm planning progress more so in line of what you can do using the 'essential mods'.

For Life Support, I'm a growing fan of ECLSS for it's power tracking properties. So even when dealing with unmanned probes/satellites, power sustainability is something tha needs to be ensured! But, some people have reported performance issues using BUT (yes another but) the plugin is still getting quick updates and fixes and it's in a really good spot right now as far as I'm concerned performance wise. Just wanted to put that side note in.

Glad you decided to go full scale, it's a whole other experience. Plus you can actually go read up on real life rockets and see what type of design you could go for. I'm loving the Delta rockets. With those sexy blue tanks!

@andqui:

If you install realchutes with the 3 packages it comes with (FASA, Stock and NP) it'll work fine. The only thing though is the new chutes with the resize aren't yet implemented within realchutes. So those will still behave like stock chutes. (Which isn't that bad, but just plan accordingly)

For Gemini I believe Nathan already tweaked it, please go ahead and post that question on the RO thread since Nathan took care of those specific tweaks. (Where part of his old KATO tweaks if i'm not mistaken, which are all in this new version called RO)

Thanks for the compliments and feedback, I'll keep working on this till it gets where it needs to be.

Plans for V19:

#1 - Continue the probe overhaul for torque/size/power/experiments.

#2 - Add the first manned custom experiments (linked to Capsules/Landers)

#3 - Expand on Munar Unmanned experiments

#4 - Add Deimos/Phobos fly-bys (need to check how difficult that is)

#5 - Review the other capsules for size/specs to bring into the resize.

#6 - Consider movie "probe level" propulsion into advance probe parts of the tech tree. (tiny engines & RCS blocks)

Right now the aviation tech line is pretty much a bit of a mess. If anyone could suggest perhaps 3 tiers of aviation parts, I would love to try it out in the tree. I'm more of a rocket guy, so the plane parts don't really appeal me enough to do them justice. Don't want to leave the aviation buffs hanging.

Cheers,

[Guest]

Anyone know the height of a geosynchronous orbit in RSS mod? I cant find it posted anywhere, thanks

[NathanKell]

35,786km. All distances are real in RSS, so you can just look up geosynchronous orbit in wikipedia.

[Guest]

DEAR KOD! RSS orbiting is a little more challenging that i thought. Anyone have an example pic of a tier 0 (starting parts) rocket that can orbit a QBE (Mk1) probe, a dipole antenna and 8x OX-STAT solar panels, a 0.625 heat sheild and 2x of the small radial parachutes, that can de-orbit itself? i am just testing what it takes to launch, orbit and de-orbit a small probe and i am kinda lost with the multiple fuel options (although i did find the "for XX rocket" tag in the fuel selection area). so 2 questions i guess, what does a tier 0 rocket that can orbit a tiny probe look like as an example & what fuels do you use under what situation? KSP just when from WAY TO EASY to "WOW, why didnt that orbit?".

As a side question when is the gravity turn started in RSS, as it seems "space" is now something like 110km to 120km up (from what stayputnik mk2 said about not being able to start data collection until i was roughly that high)

[MedievalNerd]

For gravity turns in RSS you want to start as soon as you hit ~100m/s. Very early on. You can't do what a lot of people usually do in stock KSP which is go straight up up to 10km and then do your gravity burn, you'll most likely spin out of control if you try to do that. And Ideally you'll want your rocket to have a surface TWR of ~1.2-1.3. When I do that i usually don't end up going too fast before clearing at least the first layer of atmosphere.

You can ask mech jeb to show you an ascent node to follow, it could give you an idea of how fast you want to turn. (very slowly)

And sure I'll send you some screenshots of vessels I used for my campaign, i'll probably make a video about it.

Cheers,

[NathanKell]

Another point is you have to get out of the KSP mindset of "oh, deorbiting is easy"--actually, it's very hard, and you pay a heck of a mass penalty for shield and parachutes. Don't worry about trying to deorbit, just get the probe up there.

[BrickedKeyboard]

Looked at the V18 tree. One comment/concern : it looks as if the KSP Interstellar "science lab" is available one node before the Science JR? Not only does this not make sense (one is far more advanced), but as I understand if, the KSP interstellar science lab generates science points more or less infinitely. (albeit slowly unless the lab is placed in a high science location such as orbitting jool)

Another one : the SRB tree is very expensive, and I don't really understand what SRBs are really for. Modern real life rockets usually don't use them, and the game ones have terrible ISP stats and rapid burnout. Also, no thrust vectoring. I've played other entertaining tech trees that more or less make you start with SRBs to go places, or you could interlink the SRB and the general rocketry trees.

[Guest]

WOW, ok i was able to orbit both the odd "remote guidance probe" (its heavy!, but can take a crew report like "probe reading"), and then Jeb with tier 0 rocket/SRB parts (and the 1st staging & structural nodes). This leaves me wondering:

EDIT (found the map sorry i didnt look hard enough 1st time) to 1> is there a delta-v chart for RSS?

2> what is the "expected" tech needed to land a probe or kerbal on The Mun and return it/him safely? (it seems like you would need 18,000+ delta-v for this if i am reading delta-v map correctly)

3> And on the tech level of engines, am i correct in assuming setting the tech level to your current "rocket tier" number (0 start then 1 to 7) is the correct format?

Edited November 24, 2013 by Guest
found RSS delta-v map by looking harder for it

[RaccoonTOF]

Well, this new version came out earlier than expected I've got my new laptop showing up on Wednesday, which should finally eliminate all of my performance-based issues due to the current one, and allow me to run RSS again. Unfortuntely, my current career got totally borked by the update . So now I've got to decide if I want to start another new game for the few days till the new computer gets here and then start again, take a break from this pack for a few days and play around in sandbox for a bit, or just bite the bullet and deal with the somewhat frequent crashes and 20 minute load times with RSS installed to play the new pack in full so that I can just migrate the save over to the new computer when it gets here. Decisions, decisions...

@Bricked: Have you looked at the stretchy SRBs? I agree that I find myself with no real use for the stock SRBs just because liquid boosters are far more controllable and customizable (especially for burn times and thrust values) but the stretchy SRBs solve both of those problems. They still have poor ISPs (as expected from solid fuels), but they DO have good TWR ratios in comparison to the earlier available liquid rockets...very useful for your first atmospheric stage (either as designed to boost an existing stage, or even to be the entirety of the first stage itself).

@Aazard: Not sure about the tech levels required in the new version under RSS, but the dV number you have there seems a tad low. I seem to recall needing 20-21k dV for a Mun mission under RSS with FAR and DR (the latter especially makes it more difficult because you usually need an extra ~500 m/s in comparison to without DR to fly a safe return insertion - at least, to do it in a single pass without spending "months" in space doing repeated aerobraking). Then again, I generally go for lower-than-average TWR on my rockets (especially manned ones) under the combination of FAR and DR for safety and control reasons. If you want to push the edge of capabilities (and are a good enough pilot) then you might indeed be able to do it in the 18k range.

[Guest]

you dont need to pull months (or even days) orbiting for safe reinsertion, just watch the angle you come in at & use FAR to your advantage to control entry as atmo thickens up. i can now confirm a rocket with 19K delta-v can do a mun return mission with little issue

[andqui]

Is there a patch floating around that incorporates the AIES antennas into remote tech? I'm not sure which thread to ask in, but put it here because it would need a rescale in any case.

thanks

[Guest]

From looking at the comms ranges we have and distances in our solar system, does this mean "Pluto" can nor be reached directly from a KEO sat network. & needs atleast a mars/duna relay (when duna is in correct position) to be reached??

[MedievalNerd]

Well, this new version came out earlier than expected I've got my new laptop showing up on Wednesday, which should finally eliminate all of my performance-based issues due to the current one, and allow me to run RSS again. Unfortuntely, my current career got totally borked by the update . So now I've got to decide if I want to start another new game for the few days till the new computer gets here and then start again, take a break from this pack for a few days and play around in sandbox for a bit, or just bite the bullet and deal with the somewhat frequent crashes and 20 minute load times with RSS installed to play the new pack in full so that I can just migrate the save over to the new computer when it gets here. Decisions, decisions...

Your career got messed up because of the new tree? Pretty sure that once a career is started, you run off the locally saved copy of the tech tree you loaded initially. Let me know if I got that straight, because I want to make sure I'm messing people's games when I perform updates. From what I could see, my old saves still had the old version of the trees.

To help with low memory issues, I HIGHLY recommend the Active Memory saver plugin:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/59005-0-22-Release-1-Active-Memory-Reduction-Mod

This does wonders for me in terms of reducing the amount of memory required by the game.