[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[Guest]

They shouldn't be. But you should get rid of all the folders it replaces. If you are having issues with MFT, please try reinstalling the folders.

Updates that will be 18b, 18c, 18d, etc. will not be 'game breaking'. Major updates V19, V20, might, but i'll let people know if it did change something major. Most likely V19 will be quite the overhaul, I'm making new probes and will try to make a more smooth progression for unmanned probes following historical successful missions.

Hope this helps.

l

I just reinstalled KSP and reapplied all files, texture packs and tweaks... I am still having engine tech level not updating when i try to change it (its stuck at level 2 even on a new campaign/new install), and i can get the fuels to change but the info window shows new isp but wont update the "currently configured to" info or the "switch fuel" buttons. I did a new install using files from your pack directly...any idea whats wrong?

EDIT: found issue by digging around and finding a note "README_RO" about deleting an engine .cfg file. sorry about this it was a bit hard to find

Edited November 27, 2013 by Guest

[MedievalNerd]

I just reinstalled KSP and reapplied all files, texture packs and tweaks... I am still having engine tech level not updating when i try to change it (its stuck at level 2 even on a new campaign/new install), and i can get the fuels to change but the info window shows new isp but wont update the "currently configured to" info or the "switch fuel" buttons. I did a new install using files from your pack directly...any idea whats wrong?

EDIT: found issue by digging around and finding a note "README_RO" about deleting an engine .cfg file. sorry about this it was a bit hard to find

That's strange, the engines.cfg file is already deleted in the MFT folder in the pack. Are you downloading them separately?

[stevron]

Need a bigger VAB, I refuse to build outwards!

[MedievalNerd]

Need a bigger VAB, I refuse to build outwards!

Keep going, you can actually zoom a few feet _above_ the VAB.

(If you are using the realism overhaul and all the tweaks)

[Guest]

Hi, Are the 2 types of mystery goo the same experiment points pool? one is the stock "observe mystery goo" the other is a "radiometer" mystery goo, they both seem the same, is this intentional? the radio meter is earlier in tech tree and weights in at 0.001T and the standard goo pod is 0.15T and in the science node with the atmospheric analysis nose cap at 500pts, is this an error as why would mystery goo unlock in 2 different places one being very costly (and its bundled with the fairly low use in early game nose cone) Just wondering if we are met to avoid the full size mystery goo pod entirely?? please advise thanks

And what is powering these rockets with 23K+ delta-v? i'm having issues getting anything over 19K (and even then they are HUGE and want to fall apart on the launch pad 1/2 the time) would some one please post a breakdown of a rocket that lands a mun on mun and returns him, with a note on what rocket/fuel combo each stage is using?? i'm getting more confused every time i attempt a build, and the builds are becoming so huge they are hard to control and hard to stop from falling apart.

I could really use some examples that FULLY explain whats in the build, not just a picture that doesn't show rocket engine names or the fuel combinations. If someone would be kind enough to break this down for me it would get me moving along, but right now i am having issues building a munar landing & return rocket. I really enjoy this challenge, but i find all the "realism tweaks" with fuels hard to understand and i have yet to see it broken down in this thread

Edited November 27, 2013 by Guest

[Sparker]

I really love this tech tree. For me it seems quite realistic at the moment. But there are some things I would like to express my opinion about.

1.Stretchy tanks. Currently We unlock all sizes of stretchy tanks after our first research on rocketry. I think that it would be more logical to unlock, for example, 1.25m stretchy tanks at the moment we unlock 2.5m usual tanks, after we have researched 1.25m standard quite enough.

2.I like the idea of experiments. I've got an idea for anothe one.

So, I was reading some info about soviet space program and ran across 'Raduga' capsule for returning results of experiments from Mir space station. I thought that it would be good to have some experiments which need be performed on large space stations. They would require some kerbals on-board and much power and we would probably have to return some samples back to Kerbin, but it will also give us much science. I think that this can encourage building large space stations with many science and research modules. What do you think of it?

[Khronos90]

Hi, I have been reading this long thread and I really loved the idea and mods involved.

But I have been having problems with the installation, since yesterday and multiple installs I can't throttle up or down with liquid engines... If anyone knows why this is and how to fix it I would be really glad.

Thanks!

[sirklick]

Sparker: Stretchy tanks need to be available early for those of us who have removed all/most of the standard tanks to avoid KSP memory issues. To me static tanks sizes have nothing to do with realism and more to do with default game mechanics/progression -which are mostly rendered obsolete and tedious with stretchy tanks. My guess is that the same progression mechanic -in a more sensible form- will live on through ModularEngines tech-levels (hopefully tied into the tech tree). If progression is tied to the engines instead of tank size the player decision/choice is tied more to engines available and stage TWR/dV requirements. I think this fits RL and KSP progression better and in a way that feels more natural and less artificially constrained.

[ZaPPPa]

...I can't throttle up or down with liquid engines... If anyone knows why this is and how to fix it I would be really glad.

Are you doing an unmanned probe? If so, make sure you have an antenna on the probe so you can send and receive commands.

[spudcosmic]

How am I supposed to get research points at the start with only the probe core but no science parts?

[stevron]

@Aazard Final mass of whatever it is you are lifting, whether it's a probe with science stuff ala my screenie, or a capsule with life support and such plays a huge role on total dV. If that were a capsule instead of a probe body the total dV would drop quite significantly. So always ditch weight where you can.

As for motor's, fuels n stuff. For Mun missions LH2 is you're friend but not so much on interplanetary missions since LH2 evaporates slowly even in the cryo tank. For other missions I try to make an educated guess on what is required and set it all up accordingly.

As you can see that rocket is split into 4 stages.

The first stage consists of the standard LF/LO2 combined with the LR88-4(KW Rocketry - 25000kN) @ tech level 6. Setting yourself up with the highest thrust engine you got means you can stick a lot more on top. The fuel tank is sized for a 1:3 TWR. The boosters on the side really should be LF boosters instead of stretchy SRB's but at the time I really cbf. They are set to run the exact duration of the main rocket just to squeeze a bit more dV out of the first stage with out building outwards like crazy.

The second stage uses a LR69-3(I think it's from FASA) @ T6, also 1:3 TWR. This is a Lower+ LH2/LO2 engine with extremely good ISP and thrust (6000kN). Because the first stage will give me enough altitude and a good chunk of sideways speed this engine is always fired at full ISP. Remember to use cryo tanks.

The third and forth stages are just a high ISP LH2 engine @ T6, but are generally fueled for what they are required to do @ a 1:1 TWR. So if it were a Mun return mission I would fuel the final stage to give me like 3k dV or w/e it is plus a little extra to get into orbit and perform the Kerbin injection burn. The stage before that would be fueled for performing hopefully say the last quarter of the munar injection burn, mun circularize orbit burn. Then 99% of the powered decent, dropping it off and having the final stage do the touchdown.

From there you now have essentially a final mass of what you're trying to put into orbit. So it's just a matter of building the lifter to put it there and giving yourself enough delta V in the second stage to ensure the upper stages can do there jobs.

I found that as I was increasing rocket tech level giving access to better engines, higher tech level's on lower tech engines I was allowed much more freedom in my design's because of the ISP increases and bigger lifting engines. You could if you wanted stick a bunch of like 5000kN engines on to get plenty of thrust but you're not getting the increased ISP which is where the most benefits come from.

I am by no means an expert when it comes to this but these are just some of the thing's I myself go through when building rockets specifically in conjunction with RSS. Hope it helps.

@spudcosmic The initial probes you get have a couple of experiments on them, check the OP for details.

Edited November 28, 2013 by stevron

[MedievalNerd]

How am I supposed to get research points at the start with only the probe core but no science parts?

Howdy good sir, have a good read of the OP. Then look at the 3rd or 4th post. For more information on the custom experiments.

I added experiments to probes. They are planet, and situation specific and require you to 'acquire' enough data before performing the experiment.

Cheers,

[sirklick]

How am I supposed to get research points at the start with only the probe core but no science parts?

This mod adds three variations of that probe core, each able to do different science missions. The first one allows you to gather upper-atmospheric data after a certain altitude. This data (which is a resource) can be spent to complete two science missions - data collection as well as a sample. This alone should put you well on your way to unlocking the first tiers.

Edit: Totally ninja'd by MedievalNerd

[sirklick]

MedievalNerd: Any tips for continuing past the first few tech levels? Having deleted most stock tanks, I have run into some issues in gathering enough science to progress far enough into the tech tree to do probe moon missions without 170+ part rocket/payloads. My computer just can't handle the load. There seems to be quite the jump in node cost between T2 and T3 nodes which makes tech tree progression feel super "grind-y".

[MedievalNerd]

I really love this tech tree. For me it seems quite realistic at the moment. But there are some things I would like to express my opinion about.

1.Stretchy tanks. Currently We unlock all sizes of stretchy tanks after our first research on rocketry. I think that it would be more logical to unlock, for example, 1.25m stretchy tanks at the moment we unlock 2.5m usual tanks, after we have researched 1.25m standard quite enough.

2.I like the idea of experiments. I've got an idea for anothe one.

So, I was reading some info about soviet space program and ran across 'Raduga' capsule for returning results of experiments from Mir space station. I thought that it would be good to have some experiments which need be performed on large space stations. They would require some kerbals on-board and much power and we would probably have to return some samples back to Kerbin, but it will also give us much science. I think that this can encourage building large space stations with many science and research modules. What do you think of it?

#1 - Sirklick covered that point. Plus you'll notice that stretchy tanks unlock as matching engine sizes become available. I put Nathan's more advanced stretchy tanks (cryo and the likes further down the tree)

#2 - Yes, that does sound like a great idea. And I'm sure I can figure out a way to make that happen. Although right now, in order to get the base of the tree/mod or whatever this is called at this point, a good starting experience. I'm going through the list of historical missions and making matching probes to try and make experiments/missions for the earlier tiers of tech. As I move towards manned missions and past the munar landing, then i'll start doing more interesting things.

@all,

The person making SCANsat, has revealed to me that there is an easy method I could use to detect what is the current % of the targetbody that has been scanned. So we could have satellite scanning science missions! IE, an experiment that requires Y data, and Z % of the body to have been scanned to complete the mission. Not there yet, but so much potential!

And also, a cry of help to fellow modders. If you would like to help me add impact probes to the custom experiment module, I would be endlessly grateful. My limited KSP/coding knowledge is preventing me to figure out how to write such a method.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone,

[MedievalNerd]

MedievalNerd: Any tips for continuing past the first few tech levels? Having deleted most stock tanks, I have run into some issues in gathering enough science to progress far enough into the tech tree to do probe moon missions without 170+ part rocket/payloads. My computer just can't handle the load. There seems to be quite the jump in node cost between T2 and T3 nodes which makes tech tree progression feel super "grind-y".

Hi Sirklick,

Right now, in it's current state, you only have enough custom experiment to unlock the first two tiers or so. Once I add K-Xplorer 1, Kaputnik 1, 2 & 3. It'll be definitely more interesting. Looked at Vanguard, but darn, that thing is so small.

It's lacking in custom experiments and i'm still calculating experiment costs. V19 will be leagues better with 'way' more experiments for early on, and work towards my new 'photo & video data' collection, (Surveyor probes) and potentially the scanning experiments. I'm also interested in figuring out a cool way to get Lunokold type mission/experiment in there too!.

I didn't think the tree would get much attention, but from what I see i'm not working half as fast enough!! D:

Bear with me,

[andqui]

#1 - Sirklick covered that point. Plus you'll notice that stretchy tanks unlock as matching engine sizes become available. I put Nathan's more advanced stretchy tanks (cryo and the likes further down the tree)

....

@all

The person making SCANsat, has revealed to me that there is an easy method I could use to detect what is the current % of the targetbody that has been scanned. So we could have satellite scanning science missions! IE, an experiment that requires Y data, and Z % of the body to have been scanned to complete the mission. Not there yet, but so much potential!

I'm not exactly sure how the different tanks before MFS work, as I never used it before starting my RSS setup with this tech tree, but would you consider putting the balloon stretchy tanks earlier in the tree? The Atlas rockets used super-light balloon tanks in the late 50's, and it would be handy to have with the inefficient tier-1 engines I'm currently working with.

I really like the sound of the future experiments/achievements to mirror historical space development, keep it up. Also, SCANSAT already rewards you with science points for scanning planets, so maybe you could just tap in to that.

[spudcosmic]

Howdy good sir, have a good read of the OP. Then look at the 3rd or 4th post. For more information on the custom experiments.

I added experiments to probes. They are planet, and situation specific and require you to 'acquire' enough data before performing the experiment.

Cheers,

Thank you, you weren't kidding when you said those mods were essentials.

[ferram4]

It's lacking in custom experiments and i'm still calculating experiment costs. V19 will be leagues better with 'way' more experiments for early on, and work towards my new 'photo & video data' collection, (Surveyor probes) and potentially the scanning experiments. I'm also interested in figuring out a cool way to get Lunokold type mission/experiment in there too!.

Would it be possible to add some type of quick "flying in atmosphere" type of experiments for Eve-Venus, of an early Venera descent probe variety? That would add a lot of science benefit to sending a descent probe there and add a nice reward for actually handling a serious reentry on another planet.

[MedievalNerd]

Would it be possible to add some type of quick "flying in atmosphere" type of experiments for Eve-Venus, of an early Venera descent probe variety? That would add a lot of science benefit to sending a descent probe there and add a nice reward for actually handling a serious reentry on another planet.

Oh there sure will be!

Right now I only added arbitrary High Orbital flybys for Venus & Mars. (Eve / Duna) They are unlocked in tier 2 of probes.

I basically mapped out all the succesfull probe missions from the 1950's on, and will try to integrate matching probes around those tiers. I'm getting there! V19 will definitely be much better in terms of progression using only custom experiments.

I had to reinstall my whole system last night after a shoddy cloning of my windows drive to migrate to my SSD. Almost back up and running, and thankfully nothing was lost.

My RAID was dying for over a year, and I had enough of it.

[Guest]

should we be using Kerbal Joint Reinforcement mod with this pack due to size of rockets, or are joints already strengthened by the tweak package?

[MedievalNerd]

should we be using Kerbal Joint Reinforcement mod with this pack due to size of rockets, or are joints already strengthened by the tweak package?

I personally use it, I should add it to the list!

EDIT: Added KJR to the list with download link.

Edited November 28, 2013 by MedievalNerd

[BrickedKeyboard]

It's lacking in custom experiments and i'm still calculating experiment costs. V19 will be leagues better with 'way' more experiments for early on, and work towards my new 'photo & video data' collection, (Surveyor probes) and potentially the scanning experiments. I'm also interested in figuring out a cool way to get Lunokold type mission/experiment in there too!.

I didn't think the tree would get much attention, but from what I see i'm not working half as fast enough!! D:

Bear with me,

So, I asked Nathan in his Real Fuels thread about automatic engine selection based on tree unlocks. He said he had the code written and that it should be debugged and working "by the end of the weekend".

I take it with V19 and with automatic fuel/engine unlocks, we might have a playable game on our hands? One issue remaining is that I have noticed that certain engines unlocked right at the start have a minimum tech level of "2". Yet, those engines should not be unlocked because I have not yet upgraded to General Rocketry.

Also, have you put any thought into an economy system? You're quite right regarding SRBs, they would only make sense if we actually had to spend Ker-bucks to buy rocket engines. To make it interesting, perhaps the game needs a maximum launch pad mass (your launch pad at KSP would be capable to a maximum weight for a rocket unless you spend money to upgrade the pad) and of course an economy system where rockets cost money.

The way I was thinking it might work, perhaps your space program gets an annual budget. Any money not spent at the end of a game year is lost. Thus, you have to be able to afford a given mission within the price of the annual budget, at worst. You would gain budget increases for the first time you do certain things, and every point of science would add to the budget remaining for this year. There would be commercial missions that give you money for this year so you could do a very expensive mission by first "grinding" a couple commercial missions then doing the expensive mission that same fiscal year.

Similarly, kerbonauts would have a "fame" stat, and having kerbonauts do specific things would give you immediate budget increases. Also, kerbonauts gain fame with each successful mission. Permanent bases on various planets and moons would give you money for as long as the kerbonauts at those bases are alive (and, of course, the mod ECLSS or TAC must be installed to gain any money...)

[MedievalNerd]

So, I asked Nathan in his Real Fuels thread about automatic engine selection based on tree unlocks. He said he had the code written and that it should be debugged and working "by the end of the weekend".

I take it with V19 and with automatic fuel/engine unlocks, we might have a playable game on our hands? One issue remaining is that I have noticed that certain engines unlocked right at the start have a minimum tech level of "2". Yet, those engines should not be unlocked because I have not yet upgraded to General Rocketry.

Also, have you put any thought into an economy system? You're quite right regarding SRBs, they would only make sense if we actually had to spend Ker-bucks to buy rocket engines. To make it interesting, perhaps the game needs a maximum launch pad mass (your launch pad at KSP would be capable to a maximum weight for a rocket unless you spend money to upgrade the pad) and of course an economy system where rockets cost money.

The way I was thinking it might work, perhaps your space program gets an annual budget. Any money not spent at the end of a game year is lost. Thus, you have to be able to afford a given mission within the price of the annual budget, at worst. You would gain budget increases for the first time you do certain things, and every point of science would add to the budget remaining for this year. There would be commercial missions that give you money for this year so you could do a very expensive mission by first "grinding" a couple commercial missions then doing the expensive mission that same fiscal year.

Similarly, kerbonauts would have a "fame" stat, and having kerbonauts do specific things would give you immediate budget increases. Also, kerbonauts gain fame with each successful mission. Permanent bases on various planets and moons would give you money for as long as the kerbonauts at those bases are alive (and, of course, the mod ECLSS or TAC must be installed to gain any money...)

I'm not sure exactly when V19 will be released, I'm trying to flesh it out proper, plus I'm inventing probes using existing parts. lol. Right now I have Explorer 1, Sputnik 2 & 3. Going to see about the rest.

I'm also going to give Impact probes a stab, and with my awesome coding skills wish me luck. Although ludsoe did basically showed me a method to use to detect the probes impending doom. Now to try that out, then figure out how to award science directly (without going through the science module) and lastly make sure that you can only get science if you are still in line of contact with RT2.

I'll check with Nathan about tech integretion of MFT, I was under the impression it wasn't 'soon' but if it is, thank goodness, I'll definitely make sure that they are implemented in V19.

In terms of economy, until stock economy/career gets implemented intent is to use MCE for costs. That's a whole other beast to tackle, which is a bit further down the road but still in the plans.

Cheers,

[Guest]

I finally managed a geosynchronous comm network using 4x stayputnik mk1's with 8x of the 2nd to unlock solar panel, a stack battery and omni communitron 32's each. HOW DOES ONE MANAGE TO GET A SYSTEM SETUP THAT CAN REACH THE MUN/EVE/DUNA 100% of the time? i have second tier rockets and boosters but cant manage to geo-orbit a larger comms satellite, what do we need to do, put a 4x sat lowish (2000km to 5000km) orbit omni network up and also use 4x ground relay "big dish" system on kerbins surface? if anyone can show me an example of a geo-orbit capable launcher & payload for a self powering satellite that can reach eve & duna that would be great, i'm really struggling to pull off the eve/duna flybys, and even mun return missions! any advice is welcome

ALSO: note for midievalnerd:

Will your "missions" include setting up a 4x orbital comms sat network with a decent "$$ reward"? Seeing as its almost a must to be able to use the QBE mk2 fully in early game for more science points?

As the cost reported by "MCE" for 1 of the 4 sats is ASTRONOMICAL (lol), the basic 1x communitron 32 omni sat cost less than a sub-compact car ($10,300 each) but its launcher cost more than an F1 car.... am i missing something or should it cost $2.8 million, in MCE cost breakdown, to launch one kerbal (to inject all the comm sats to an AP of 35,786 km & Pe of 110km and barely deorbit himself) and 4x comm sats (JUST able to bring their PE up on their own match AP of 35,786 km)??

atleast i'm finally getting the hang of RSS basic orbital maneuvers and RSS mun flybys/1 way landings, THIS IS CHALLENGING & 101% awesome! GREAT JOB

Also as a suggestion, I think you should cover a small walk through or video for at least these 4 points:

1: Basics of RSS/Real Fuels rocket design (its a nightmare if you are new to both RSS and real fuels lol)

2: doing the most science with stayput mk1/2 and QBE mk1 missions (took me forever to realize i could add the "M38 unoccupied guidance system" probe for 1 reading each on kerbins surface, kerbins oceans, flying at kerbin, kerbins high atmosphere, near space around kerbin & finally high space around kerbin and that i could add a plane cockpit for SHORT sub-orbital/orbital trips. Also i didnt know that there was a lighter/earlier goo pod clone "radiometer" and that the magnetosphere probe awarded science points, these REALLY increased my starting science yield)

3: setting up your 1st basic permanent self powering Mun, Duna & Eve capable comm sat network

4: collecting all science points from kerbins biomes,flying, high atmosphere, near & high space (this should also be a bonus reward via MCE if possible) although we all know "HOW TO GET THE POINTS" it should be stressed how important this can be to your early game tech tree progression

anyways i'm sure this is a run-on thought... but just my 2 cents.... THANKS AGAIN!!!!

Edited November 29, 2013 by Guest