Standardize values.

[Paul Kingtiger]

I've been building craft based on calculations over the weekend and I've noticed a few inconsistencies in the values given in the VAB/SPH.

For example the Thermoelectric generator and single panel solar panel (OX-STAT) are rated in units per minute, but the other solar panels are rated in units per second.

Sure I can divide / multiply by 60 but it would be easier if everything used the same units. Especially for the educational version where students are likely to be running a lot of maths out of game.

While working on the education version, it might be a good time to standardize and name the measurements used. For example power could be standardized in watts (joules per second). Weight in KG (which it already is I think) and so on. The units could also be shown in game so that players and students can match up KSP calculations with other things.

[EnhancedCookie]

Yeah, +1 , it can get sort of confusing with all sorts of different units...

[tntristan12]

They changed units for the sake of not having to express the orders of magnitude. When you portray data, there are two schools of thought. 1) keep all units the same for comparison (what you're proposing), or 2) express them in the most convenient units possible, which is what they're doing now. Neither is better than the other, and I do see why this suggestion would be useful, but it all comes down to preference.

[Superfluous J]

How about showing both?

2/min (120/sec)

[That guy who builds stuff]

How about showing both?

2/min (120/sec)

that would take even more room the using the same unit for everything.

[Paul Kingtiger]

I find this more of a problem with time than other measurements because time is non-decimal.

[Superfluous J]

that would take even more room the using the same unit for everything.

I didn't know that room was the issue. In that case, what would be the single largest second value in the game? Off hand I can only remember ever seeing 2 per minute which would be 120, which frankly isn't that big a number.

[UncleBod]

Don't forget the third road:

have a setting so the user can choose which of the two they prefer...

/UncleBod

Expert on controlled crashesh

[scootersoup]

I was wondering about this as well, but I can understand the want to use the most convenient unit. I thought weight was measured in tons though. Also, if speaking for an educational standpoint, why would you feel the need to make everything as simple as possible? Isn't that the problem with education already? At least in the US...

[Epthelyn]

I was wondering about this as well, but I can understand the want to use the most convenient unit. I thought weight was measured in tons though. Also, if speaking for an educational standpoint, why would you feel the need to make everything as simple as possible? Isn't that the problem with education already? At least in the US...

It's metric tons, so 1000kg = 1 ton.

I imagine people would prefer to see a weight measurement as 220t than 220,000kg when dealing with rockets.

[Smidge204]

+1 this suggestion, plus I'll add a bit more;

It's metric tons, so 1000kg = 1 ton.

I imagine people would prefer to see a weight measurement as 220t than 220,000kg when dealing with rockets.

Except there's no "t" next to the mass in the game. It just says, for example, "Mass: 4.5" - I found this particularly confusing at first as I had no idea what the units actually were. I just assumed that it was at least internally consistent (eg an object with Mass: 4.0 was four times heavier than something with Mass: 1.0) but could not confidently plug these numbers into any equations. Eventually I figured out it was metric tons from reading the KSP wiki.

The same is true for engine power. The LV-T45 has a "Power" of 200 per the in-game info window. 200 what? Watts? kW? MW? Oh, it's 200 kN... Newtons are not a unit of power so it's completely inappropriate to have it labeled as "Engine Max Power" don't you think? Should be "Engine Max Thrust" with a "kN" stuck on the end.

I'm okay with the temperatures not having units, though I'm assuming it's Centigrade since the max temps listed are always nice, e.g. 3600. Could be Kelvin I suppose, but it doesn't matter that much.

Ditto with electric charge, which only has "Units/Time" with no idea what those units are. Should be Watts or Kilowatts. I agree that everything should be consistent though... either units/min or units/sec. The Gigantor solar array, the most powerful electrical source in the game, produces 18.0/sec (1,080/min). The weakest sources are the RTG and OX-STAT panels at 45/min (0.75/sec). As consumers, you have the Copula module which eats 54/min (0.9/sec). But you also have the Stayputnik which need 54.0/HOUR (0.015/sec).

So just make everything "per second." There's plenty of room and it'd make things much easier to compare. And add a unit, I nominate Watt-Hours (Wh) since "0.015 Watt-Hours per second" is 54 Watts, which seems perfectly reasonable for a small probe core!

=Smidge=

[rkman]

They changed units for the sake of not having to express the orders of magnitude. When you portray data, there are two schools of thought. 1) keep all units the same for comparison (what you're proposing), or 2) express them in the most convenient units possible, which is what they're doing now.

Which is what they do with electricity, not with units of length, speed. Kilo, Mega etc are there to express the orders of magnitude.

How about showing both?

2/min (120/sec)

How about (kilo)Watts and (kilo)Watt-hours.

How long will a 100Watt floodlight run on a 500Wh battery? How many 100Watt solar panels do you need to power a 3kW ion engine? Trivial to calculate.

[Paul Kingtiger]

Also, if speaking for an educational standpoint, why would you feel the need to make everything as simple as possible? Isn't that the problem with education already? At least in the US...

Depends on your view point I guess. In a geometry class you'd could be teaching students how to work out how to power a satellite, the interesting parts are using the angular distance equation to work out how long it will be in shadow (thus how many batteries you'll need) and from there how many solar panels you'll need to full change the batteries and run the satellite while in sunlight. Converting hours to minutes and seconds just takes focus away from the geometry and adds in a chance of missing the time unit of measurement and screwing up the calculations.

The first thing I did when I planned the above (my current game goal is super efficiency) was to convert all the units to be the same so later calculations could be done without worrying. It's also the first thing I do when running equations in my day job (data analyst consultant).

As Smidge204 has said as an absolute minimum it would be nice to have the unit of measurement after the value in game. Certainly in my school you lost marks is you didn't include the units, cm, mm, inches, whatever (either after every number or above the equations "all units in cm")

[Dun Kirk]

put everything is imperial, you young-ens don't known nothin'

[TMS]

Agree on the standardisation thing. Irritates the hell out of me. Although all the part descriptions need overhauling.

[Corona688]

The ones involving time should really stick to one measure, yes, and state it plainly, some of them are completely ambiguous right now. Weight is probably OK as is if they make it state a unit.

[Paul Kingtiger]

I've noticed the wiki does a really good job of standardising the units and labeling everything.

[LethalDose]

Sure I can divide / multiply by 60 but it would be easier if everything used the same units. Especially for the educational version where students are likely to be running a lot of maths out of game.

Actually, it's important for students to do the unit analyses themselves, including converting between m/km, g/kg, and hr/min/s, so this arguement doesn't really hold water.

I would just prefer it if they were added units to everying (mass/weight, thrust, sp. impulse, etc). It would take a lot of guess work out of "the maths".

[Rusty6899]

From before, surely 2/sec = 120/minute.

I'm pretty happy with the way the values are given at the moment, although it took me ages to work out that mass was in tonnes and power in kN (wtf?).

I realised when I saw a 't' by the mass in flight, that it must have been tonnes, then decided to do a bit of experimenting with the engines to see how much "power" was required to lift a unit mass. It was quickly apparent that Power = Thrust. I would actually quite like that rectified.

[Corona688]

From before, surely 2/sec = 120/minute.

How about something just labelled '45'?

[Superfluous J]

How about something just labelled '45'?

Well that one's obvious. Pfft. It's the caliber of bullet it takes.

[Stratoroc]

If one were to be anal about units and education then different manufacturers will have different units, as tends to be the case in real life. Some engines will show you thrust in KN, other engines (those found on the side of a different road) will have power in HP. Same with mass, electrical power generation and consumption, and so forth.

Among other things it'll piss off future engineers enough to really want a standardized unit system in real life.

+many for explicit statement of units though, so needed.

[mossman]

Yes please.

[Paul Kingtiger]

Love the new part UI in .23 and it's great to see some unit symbols, but we're not quite there yet.

Crash Tolerance is perfect, meters per second!

Max Temperature shows the degrees symbol but not the unit type, I'm assuming it's Kelvin or Celsius/Centigrade. Kelvin would be a great choice for temperature as it's scientific and removes the need for negative numbers.

The rest are still lacking any units at all.

Has anyone played around with the Edu version of KSP? Does that include units?

[Kegereneku]

Yes, some standardization wouldn't hurt. Preferably inspired by the International System and avoiding what NASA did (stay with imperial).

Usually we put everything related on the same order of magnitude and make good use of prefix. It's not adapted to everything but it's easier than using Decimal Time

Edit : Keep it accessible to common player yes. At least to not give the false idea that KSP is "that real".

Edited December 19, 2013 by Kegereneku