[0.23.5] Realism Overhaul: ROv5.2 + Modlist for RSS 6/30/14

[ChronicSilence]

If the engine you want is slightly larger than your rocket you could put a Procedural Fairings interstage adapter at the bottom of the tank, press G to turn on crossfeed, attach the engine underneath it and shape the fairings so the base of your rocket flares out to meet the engine. If the engine is smaller you can do the same but flip the interstage fairing base upside down so the rocket narrows down to meet the engine underneath. Or you could try using several smaller engines.

Makes sense. I just thought that it was bizarre that after the resizing, no engine matched the pod size.

On a different note, has anyone else had difficulty trying to change the fuel type in stretchy tanks? It says press "g", but it won't change from LiquidFuel and LiquidOxygen to anything else. Also, can anyone tell me what "requires insulation" means for the different fuel types?

[NathanKell]

ChronicSilence: Are you not using MFS? That's required for this mod.

You change fuel types by going into action edit mode, clicking on the tank, and editing the fuels there. The quick way is click "remove all tanks" and then click the appropriate autofill button (mouseover each; the tooltip will tell you which engines use it).

Also see my post right above yours, that you may have missed (last on the prior page, posted right when you did), for more engine suggestions.

[AbeS]

So, what do we need to change for the new FAR? I bet you are adding something like that to this mod, right?

[NathanKell]

I asked in the FAR thread. Node size to 1.0, then per Ferram "Incompressible should be set to 0.01, sonic to 0.2."

[AbeS]

I read it, thanks! I was asking for the ones that won't be able to (or just don't read forums)

Edited November 24, 2013 by AbeS

[dlrk]

I think the docking ports should be re-resized. The shielded docking ports and regular clamp-o-trons should fit the top of the mk1-2 pod.

[ChronicSilence]

ChronicSilence: Are you not using MFS? That's required for this mod.

You change fuel types by going into action edit mode, clicking on the tank, and editing the fuels there. The quick way is click "remove all tanks" and then click the appropriate autofill button (mouseover each; the tooltip will tell you which engines use it).

Also see my post right above yours, that you may have missed (last on the prior page, posted right when you did), for more engine suggestions.

Thanks for the info, it's great to have all this help getting it set up. I was confused because the tank part description says "press g to change fuel type", but I got it working now.

On another note, I've been having a problem with the stretchy tanks messing up on loading a save. Their attachment nodes reset to being located at the center of mass, instead of being at the top and bottom like they should be (although they physically appear to be the same size). I'm also having trouble with the decouplers, they seem to break as soon as I go to the launch pad (even if there's very little weight on them), even though I'm using FJR. Finally, is there any decoupler larger than 4m? I'm using KW Rocketry and there's no way to detach the largest engine (LR88-4).

[NathanKell]

dlrk: there are resized docking ports available with this mod, yes.

ChronicSilence: Sure! ANd I appreciate this is a big gamechanging (and savebreaking) mod.

I will check the attachment nodes. I think I know what's wrong for them. Regarding decouplers--do you mean radial or stack? I always use Procedural Fairing Interstages for my decouplers, so I don't know much about regular decouplers anymore, except radial ones. PF Interstages are _so_ useful, they work for engines with no shrouds, for radially attached engines, for stages of different widths, etc. Or just as general fuselage elements, with stuff hidden inside them (like probe cores, wheels, batteries, lots of small fuel tanks, etc.)

[dlrk]

Nathan, I know there are resized docking parts. I think resize should be changed so that the shielded docking parts and regular clamp o trons fit the top of the 3 kerbal pod. Right now only the flat clamp-o-tron sr does.

[ChronicSilence]

dlrk: there are resized docking ports available with this mod, yes.

ChronicSilence: Sure! ANd I appreciate this is a big gamechanging (and savebreaking) mod.

I will check the attachment nodes. I think I know what's wrong for them. Regarding decouplers--do you mean radial or stack? I always use Procedural Fairing Interstages for my decouplers, so I don't know much about regular decouplers anymore, except radial ones. PF Interstages are _so_ useful, they work for engines with no shrouds, for radially attached engines, for stages of different widths, etc. Or just as general fuselage elements, with stuff hidden inside them (like probe cores, wheels, batteries, lots of small fuel tanks, etc.)

Thanks for looking into the stretchy tank nodes, it's definitely a game breaking problem when you can't ever re-load a craft in the VAB without having to remove the tanks entirely and rebuild.

I'm trying to figure out the PF interstages. When you use them, do you put the ring on the stage that's being discarded or the stage that's remaining (above the engine that's about to ignite)? Putting them on the continuing stage between the fuel tank and the engine is the only way I can get it to work with the attachment nodes, but it seems counter-intuitive because that ring is the part that you would like to discard with the spent stage.

I think what might be the most useful is a couple sample craft so newcomers can see what the general building strategy is.

[MAKC]

Thanks for looking into the stretchy tank nodes, it's definitely a game breaking problem when you can't ever re-load a craft in the VAB without having to remove the tanks entirely and rebuild.

I'm trying to figure out the PF interstages. When you use them, do you put the ring on the stage that's being discarded or the stage that's remaining (above the engine that's about to ignite)? Putting them on the continuing stage between the fuel tank and the engine is the only way I can get it to work with the attachment nodes, but it seems counter-intuitive because that ring is the part that you would like to discard with the spent stage.

I think what might be the most useful is a couple sample craft so newcomers can see what the general building strategy is.

Use the top (floating) node and attach it to the engine nozzle and then attach whatever stage you want underneath the interstage plate. For interstage decouplers I always put the interstage fairings and the interstage plate decoupler in the same staging action so it will separate cleanly.

The 2nd uppermost node is for hiding things inside of the fairings. When decoupled, whatever is attached to the interstage plate will stay attached and fall along with it. It will not prevent the lower stage from separating properly.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MAKC

[HoneyFox]

Use the top (floating) node and attach it to the engine nozzle and then attach whatever stage you want underneath the interstage plate. For interstage decouplers I always put the interstage fairings and the interstage plate decoupler in the same staging.

The 2nd uppermost node is for hiding things inside of the fairings. When decoupled, whatever is attached to the interstage plate will stay attached and fall along with it. It will not prevent the lower stage from separating properly.

There's another type of design in which you install a decoupler on your engine, then use the interstage's 2nd uppermost node to attach onto that decoupler, then use 'h' 'r' 'y' 'j' keys to adjust the shape and install fuselage fairings onto the interstage plate.

To make them look better, you can invert the interstage and install it below a stage, then install fuel tanks & engines onto its static node, then use those four keys to adjust the shape and install fuselage fairings to shroud them, only leaving the engine nozzle section to the outside.

Here is a sample rocket that utilizes interstage for different purposes including (from top to bottom): partial payload shroud (it can also fully shroud the payload if you want to), fuel tank streamlining, normal interstage shroud, NTR cluster shroud and engine casing.

Edited November 24, 2013 by HoneyFox

[Sternface]

Why ignore my post?

Ah, sorry, I should have striked-through instead of deleted.

I wrote that I noticed the Bobcat engine problem too, and started to port them over, which I offered to send to yah. Then I saw that they were supported, but not configurable, so I stopped.

I want to make them upgradable with tech level, so if you want that I can send it to yah....unless it is done officially.

P.S. Is sharing a ported/tweaked .cfg even allowed? I'm not familiar with the licenses.. Maybe if done via ModuleManager if not?

P.P.S. One advantage I have found with the miss-matched diameters is that it makes strutting upper stages, which typically use a smaller diameter motor, much easier. Of course the opposite is true when the motor is too large. Does the mismatch effect aerodynamics at all (using FAR), or is it purely aesthetic? If it does, would it effect both smaller and larger mismatches the same? I assume the smaller would have an effect only when changing vectors, but who knows...

Edited November 24, 2013 by Sternface

[NathanKell]

dlrk: ah, gotcha. Sure.

ChronicSilence: If you slightly resize the tank, the nodes will pop back. Just resize up then down again to same size.

Re: PFI. You usually build down to where you want an interstage, then grab a PFI. Place the floating (topmost) node on the node to which you want the lower, unbuilt, stage to be coupled (the bottom of the main engine, or the bottom of the tank if using multiple engines radially attached). Then adjust how far below that point the ring should be with H+mousing over the ring. Then attach the next stage's tank to the bottom of the ring. Then make the ring the appropriate width with N+mouseover. Then attach 1 (!) side fairing to it. Then use J and Y to set the top of the fairing as desired. Then remove the fairing and re-add with 4x symmetry. Done! (You may have to go back to earlier steps to tweak those values too, along the way, like changing height and width later).

Finally, make sure the decoupler for the interstage, and the decoupler for the fairings (they MUST be fairings, not fuselage shrouds) are all at, or below, the next stage's engine, just like a regular single decoupler.

I will have an example craft shortly using only parts in stock, this mod, and required mods.

AH: I see on the next page the instructions were ninja'd by other helpful folks.

One thing to add: Honeyfox, that last/lowest usage (the boattail) is somewhat dangerous as given how FAR currently handles fairings, that will remove all drag from the engine (and its open node), potentially moving the rocket CoP above the CoM.

[HoneyFox]

dlrk: ah, gotcha. Sure.

ChronicSilence: If you slightly resize the tank, the nodes will pop back. Just resize up then down again to same size.

Re: PFI. You usually build down to where you want an interstage, then grab a PFI. Place the floating (topmost) node on the node to which you want the lower, unbuilt, stage to be coupled (the bottom of the main engine, or the bottom of the tank if using multiple engines radially attached). Then adjust how far below that point the ring should be with H+mousing over the ring. Then attach the next stage's tank to the bottom of the ring. Then make the ring the appropriate width with N+mouseover. Then attach 1 (!) side fairing to it. Then use J and Y to set the top of the fairing as desired. Then remove the fairing and re-add with 4x symmetry. Done! (You may have to go back to earlier steps to tweak those values too, along the way, like changing height and width later).

Finally, make sure the decoupler for the interstage, and the decoupler for the fairings (they MUST be fairings, not fuselage shrouds) are all at, or below, the next stage's engine, just like a regular single decoupler.

I will have an example craft shortly using only parts in stock, this mod, and required mods.

AH: I see on the next page the instructions were ninja'd by other helpful folks.

One thing to add: Honeyfox, that last/lowest usage (the boattail) is somewhat dangerous as given how FAR currently handles fairings, that will remove all drag from the engine (and its open node), potentially moving the rocket CoP above the CoM.

you''re right. i didn't realize this. but at least these fairings have drag and side-force-due-to-AOA themselves so i guess it's not too dangerous.

[NathanKell]

Ok. Here's a stock+required_mods launcher for a Mk1-2 pod + service module. The launcher will take ~15t to orbit, give or take (note the escape tower jettisons with stage 2 ignition, so don't trust the initial payload figure in the VAB). Service module has just under 1.5km/s dV. Hidden inside the nose compartment, under the fairings, is a drogue, 3 radials, and 4 linear RCS for pod RCS control. Disable pod RCS tank until stage away SM.

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Craft: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7t8byg91koi23j3/StockPod%20Core.craft

An alternate, more fiddly version that uses a 3m core and two 3m boosters: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzq9smya0ymsmo8/StockPod.craft

Action groups:

Backspace: Abort (decouple, fire LES)

1: Deploy solar panels

2: Deploy comms

5: Cut drogue, deploy chutes. Used when ~750mAGL, or during abort if < 1000m AGL.

Flight profile: enough dV to get to a 300x300km equatorial orbit.

1. Disable pod RCS tank, only reenable on jettison SM.

2. Set throttle to max.

3. Stage to ignite.

4. Keep max throttle.

5. Start turn at 100m/s (~1.5km)

6. When passing 6Gs, throttle back to 75%

7. Stage away first stage; ignite second stage. Max throttle.

8. End turn at around 200km, flying a zero-lift ascent.

9. Shut down when apogee = 300km.

10. Reignite to circularize.

If using MJ, use this profile: Turn start 1.5km, turn end 200km, final grade 0, turn shape 30%.

Note that this is rather inefficient. You probably should end your turn earlier.

[ANWRocketMan]

@nathanKell: Thanks for the help. Just a quick point: Is the propellant ratio fuel:oxidiser? And is it the volume or mass ratio?

Nice system you got there.

[p3asant]

I'm assuming you are keeping an eye on your G forces? It's rather insane now (since how light tanks are) how you can easily over G espacially in later stages depending on how powerful you engine is. Does the F2 report say why it disconnected?

Usually the explosion happens at launchpad, or when twr approaches 2 (18 km high or so)

Mind i'm launching big rockets (3600 t at launch or so 100t with second stage still attached to 300x300 orbit).

Explosions only happen when im launching small stuff (landers and such with tiny parts), not big ones like h2 tanks for ntr's.

Lv:

And f3 log of stuctural failure:

[ChronicSilence]

Ok. Here's a stock+required_mods launcher for a Mk1-2 pod + service module. The launcher will take ~15t to orbit, give or take (note the escape tower jettisons with stage 2 ignition, so don't trust the initial payload figure in the VAB). Service module has just under 1.5km/s dV. Hidden inside the nose compartment, under the fairings, is a drogue, 3 radials, and 4 linear RCS for pod RCS control. Disable pod RCS tank until stage away SM.

Craft: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7t8byg91koi23j3/StockPod%20Core.craft

An alternate, more fiddly version that uses a 3m core and two 3m boosters: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzq9smya0ymsmo8/StockPod.craft

Action groups:

Backspace: Abort (decouple, fire LES)

1: Deploy solar panels

2: Deploy comms

5: Cut drogue, deploy chutes. Used when ~750mAGL, or during abort if < 1000m AGL.

Flight profile: enough dV to get to a 300x300km equatorial orbit.

1. Disable pod RCS tank, only reenable on jettison SM.

2. Set throttle to max.

3. Stage to ignite.

4. Keep max throttle.

5. Start turn at 100m/s (~1.5km)

6. When passing 6Gs, throttle back to 75%

7. Stage away first stage; ignite second stage. Max throttle.

8. End turn at around 200km, flying a zero-lift ascent.

9. Shut down when apogee = 300km.

10. Reignite to circularize.

If using MJ, use this profile: Turn start 1.5km, turn end 200km, final grade 0, turn shape 30%.

Note that this is rather inefficient. You probably should end your turn earlier.

When I try to load this (with all the required mods installed, I think), it's telling me that the following parts are missing:

- decoupler.ftr.4m

- KzInterstageAdapter2

Any idea which mods these parts are from? The ProceduralFairings mod has "KzInterstageAdapter", but no "KzInterstageAdapter2".

Edited November 24, 2013 by ChronicSilence

[NathanKell]

the 4m decoupler is from DRE and was in the first version of RO but not the reupload, sorry.

The Interstage is from the Additional Textures for Procedural Fairings linked in my sig. Apologies on both counts! Will fix.

[DasBananenbrot]

the 4m decoupler is from DRE and was in the first version of RO but not the reupload, sorry.

The Interstage is from the Additional Textures for Procedural Fairings linked in my sig. Apologies on both counts! Will fix.

Well then I will wait before I try the example craft. Concerning DRE; that was already one thing that bugged me in the new Realism Overhaul, that the DRE heatshield decouplers weren't resized...

[SFJackBauer]

P.S. Does anyone know where I can find some J-2X or J-2 engines?

I am hoping for a good J-2 model too, as we have the F-1 already (and its beautiful... I hope Hakari makes a J-2... and a SSME... and a RS-68 ). But in the meantime, after staring for a long time at photos and KSP engines, I found the AIES C-6 resized to 2.5 a good fit - the nozzle diameter ends up in 2m (the stretchy tanks in meter-steps are good for measuring).

I'm going to tinker with the adapters to see if a good rounded bottom for the stage can be done.

BTW I am building some personal-use cfgs where I am relocating the engines into real life names, counterparts etc, mostly american and european since we have Bobcat awesome pack for the russian ones. If anybody wants (or perhaps is doing) something similar, shoot me a PM so we can discuss ideas, share opinions etc.

Edited November 25, 2013 by SFJackBauer

[ChronicSilence]

What are you all using to mount multiple engines on the bottom of stretchy tanks? I can't seem to do that since the surface attach is turned off for engines.

[Razorcane]

What are you all using to mount multiple engines on the bottom of stretchy tanks? I can't seem to do that since the surface attach is turned off for engines.

It's Editor Extensions.

And that's pretty good, Jack, but you should know that the stage 1 is roughly 42 meters long, so you'll need to close to triple it's size.

[SFJackBauer]

It's Editor Extensions.

And that's pretty good, Jack, but you should know that the stage 1 is roughly 42 meters long, so you'll need to close to triple it's size.

For sure, S-IC is there, I just removed it to get a better shot. BTW excellent job Nathan on putting those size tooltips on ST, very helpful!

Chronic, mostly is as Razorcane mentioned, Editor Extensions, but in this case I attached to cubic struts since the engine model origin is at its center, not on top. I wonder if the COMOffset parameter can be used to change it... It could be tweaked to hide those weird engine top adapters inside the tanks when attaching.