[0.23.5] Realism Overhaul: ROv5.2 + Modlist for RSS 6/30/14

[NathanKell]

Just add node_attach with the same position as node_stack_top. Also change the attach rules. Then you don't need to use EdExt.

[Wallenberg]

Thank you for this great mod system!

To help others, I found this nice delta-v map of our real solar system:

This is what I use to construct my craft.

[ANWRocketMan]

*snip*

I used KW Rocketry Maverick-V for my J-2X. My re-used KW Rocketry engines are configured as such:

• Vesta VR-1 => AJ 10-118K [1m] (Just a nice small orbital or upper stage engine)
  
• Vesta VR-9D => 2x AJ 10-118K engines in a double mount. [2m] (Same as the AJ 10-118K with a little more thrust for a slightly bigger/heavier payload.)
  
• WildCat-V => Merlin-1D Atmospheric [1.6m] (This works quite well. just wish I had a like-able model for the vacuum version as well. Scale is more or less aright. But I can't mount 9 of them in a nice Falcon-9 v1.1 like configuration. Ugly as hell with these large engine bases. i might remove it as it seems lsightly OP at this stage. probably for very late-game engines in career).
  
• Maverick-1D => 2x Merlin-1D in double mount. [3m](a little too small but the scale looks alright and allows me to create a proper Falcon 9 v1.1 engine configuration with these large engine bases which I hate very much!)
  
• Service Propulsion System => AJ 10-137 [3m] (This one is scaled down from the real one and I gave it less Vacuum Isp and slightly higher Atmospheric Isp to compensate. I still consider this as Kerbal Space Program so my Mk 1-2 capsule is only 3m wide)
  
• Maverick-V => J-2X [3m] (As far as I could tell, the J-2X was supposed to be 3m wide. Not 2m as the J-2. I think i'll get the AIES engine as a J-2 as well. nice to have some variety for career mode or role-playing as I usually do.)
  
• WildCat-XR => RL 10 [3m] (It's much too large and under-powered as a single 3m Upper stage engine. But it works fine as an orbital engine.)
  
• Titan-T1 => RS68 [3m] (It works quite well in this capacity.)
  
• Griffon G8-D => 4x RS25 SSME's in a quad mount [4m] (Not the best as I would like them separate and the mount is too small. I might make this a 5m engine. But I'm lacking in 4m parts.)
  
• Griffon XX => 4x J-2X engines in a quad mount [5m] (This once again too small for quad mounted J-2X engines. Might turn this into a 6m part, but 4 of them might have too little thrust as an upper stage for the kind of payloads it will have then.)
  

In addition I use Bobcat's Soviet Engines. And I want to convert the larger AIES engines to be used as realistic counterparts as well. But I'm not sure what to set them as. Any ideas?

@NathanKell: I'm having some problems with the Isp values of the engines. i used your table to set them correctly etc and it seemed to transfer to the configuration file fine. However, in-game I end up with engines with 530 Isp in vacuum and 400+ in atmosphere. Does this have anything to do with the tech-level?(Especially the origTechLevel value)?

[andqui]

Recommended Mods for RSS and Required Settings:

(In addition to mods required by and supported by RO, above)

*Frizzank's FASA pack, with my Real Gemini patch.

For the real gemini patch, is there a way to simply get it to overwrite values rather than creating a whole new part? For example, for most Gemini parts, I also have "Gemini Real", which unnecessarily increases the part count and makes the part display more cluttered.

thanks

[NathanKell]

ANWRocketMan: That's weird. You pasted into the RftSEngine.cfg file right? (and deleted the original MFS Engines.cfg). Upload your changed version of Calcs.xls? I'll take a look

You want techLevel = origTechLevel = first_TL_where_engine_is_available

andqui: Dragon01 suggested that (and was working on it); that's coming.

Also, sorry folks--was going to update last night but fell asleep...

[MedievalNerd]

ANWRocketMan: That's weird. You pasted into the RftSEngine.cfg file right? (and deleted the original MFS Engines.cfg). Upload your changed version of Calcs.xls? I'll take a look

You want techLevel = origTechLevel = first_TL_where_engine_is_available

andqui: Dragon01 suggested that (and was working on it); that's coming.

Also, sorry folks--was going to update last night but fell asleep...

How dare you fall asleep!

How many 3AM runs we did in the last 2 weeks? lol

[ANWRocketMan]

ANWRocketMan: That's weird. You pasted into the RftSEngine.cfg file right? (and deleted the original MFS Engines.cfg). Upload your changed version of Calcs.xls? I'll take a look

You want techLevel = origTechLevel = first_TL_where_engine_is_available

I have a separate configuration file for all my mods. And I did delete the MFS/RO entries for them.

I figured out, more or less, what the problem is:

All my changes take effect in-game. So i get my engine, say the Merlin 1D at its normal 311s vacuum Isp. However, this now scales with the tech levels to 355s. It seems that MFS reads the input stats as T0 and adds/modifies them from there. However, I want the stats I input to be the T7 stats. The problem is I don't know what I should then set the base stats to so that it ends up with the correct ones at T7.

Edited November 25, 2013 by ANWRocketMan

[MedievalNerd]

I have a separate configuration file for all my mods. And I did delete the MFS/RO entries for them.

I figured out, more or less, what the problem is:

All my changes take effect in-game. So i get my engine, say the Merlin 1D at its normal 311s vacuum Isp. However, this now scales with the tech levels to 355s. It seems that MFS reads the input stats as T0 and adds/modifies them from there. However, I want the stats I input to be the T7 stats. The problem is I don't know what I should then set the base stats to so that it ends up with the correct ones at T7.

If you can also have some parts that have a minimum tech level higher than 0, that would be great. If an engine was made available in the 70's, then it should have a minimum tech level of 4 or 5.

Cheers,

[p3asant]

Using the bobcat's 1:1 russian engine parts it only shows oxidizer/liquid fuel in in modular fuel setting, but actually uses RP1 (syntin?)/ Lox or LH2/Lox.

Any idea where the configs for these engines are hidden and why they're behaving this way?

[NathanKell]

ANWRocketMan: Are you using calcs.xls to generate the configs or doing it by hand? Either way, make sure you set techLevel and origTechlevel appropriately. They should be equal to each other; if using the spreadsheet, change the entry in the TL column appropriately. If by hand, set the values themselves in the main MEC block.

Note that (slightly outdated) docs for the spreadsheet are here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvHneDAy4k99dHlhdktvZW1NS1lndlhNNnRwd3FEblE&usp=drive_web#gid=7

The main change is that now you specify per-engine the propellants (as an abbreviation) and the mixture ratio, rather than jus choosing a mode by number and having a hard-coded mix ratio.

What you do to set the stats appropriately is first (in Calcs) set the engine TL to 7. Then use the multipliers to make the ISP what it should be. Then change the TL to what you want. If you want to also have a certain mass and thrust at TL7 but not have the engine start out there, then you need to look at the Isps page and look at the Thrust and Mass mults (for your engine type). If TL7 thrust is x, and desired TL is y, then set thrust to TLy_thr_mult / TL7_thr_mult * x. If TL7 mass is x and desired TL is y, set mass to TLy_mass_mult / TL7_mass_mult * x

p3asant: I'm aware they don't show up correctly in the parts list. Do they also not show correctly when you go to action groups and click on the engine?

They are behaving this way so that only one set of configs needed to be released; people without MFS can still use the engines, but people with MFS get the proper stats.

[ANWRocketMan]

If you can also have some parts that have a minimum tech level higher than 0, that would be great. If an engine was made available in the 70's, then it should have a minimum tech level of 4 or 5.

Cheers,

I am. But I'm re-working all my configs again right now.

I will be adding older 60's and onwards era engines such as the J-2 as well. And I now have 2 free parts for usage elsewhere. I think i will replace the Vesta VR-1 as older type Rl 10 engines, and have its tech level upgrade it to the A and B and onwards models. I'll try to integrate as many golden age and modern engines as I can, as realistically as I can. I'm looking for some RS-25 engine models as well. And unfortunately I'm no good at modelling or texturing work for that matter. Otherwise I would've been on it.

p.s. Watching SpaceX launch now. It's 00:00 in South Africa.

ANWRocketMan: Are you using calcs.xls to generate the configs or doing it by hand? Either way, make sure you set techLevel and origTechlevel appropriately. They should be equal to each other; if using the spreadsheet, change the entry in the TL column appropriately. If by hand, set the values themselves in the main MEC block.

Note that (slightly outdated) docs for the spreadsheet are here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvHneDAy4k99dHlhdktvZW1NS1lndlhNNnRwd3FEblE&usp=drive_web#gid=7

The main change is that now you specify per-engine the propellants (as an abbreviation) and the mixture ratio, rather than jus choosing a mode by number and having a hard-coded mix ratio.

What you do to set the stats appropriately is first (in Calcs) set the engine TL to 7. Then use the multipliers to make the ISP what it should be. Then change the TL to what you want. If you want to also have a certain mass and thrust at TL7 but not have the engine start out there, then you need to look at the Isps page and look at the Thrust and Mass mults (for your engine type). If TL7 thrust is x, and desired TL is y, then set thrust to TLy_thr_mult / TL7_thr_mult * x. If TL7 mass is x and desired TL is y, set mass to TLy_mass_mult / TL7_mass_mult * x

oh, OK. I see. Thanks, just the wrong order of operations then. Thanks for the help. Will report back tomorrow or so.

Edited November 25, 2013 by ANWRocketMan

[NathanKell]

See above post for deets

Also you really should PM SFJackBauer (and keep me in the loop too if you wouldn't mind); it'd be a shame to duplicate effort on this

[ANWRocketMan]

I edited my above post.

Will do.

[p3asant]

p3asant: I'm aware they don't show up correctly in the parts list. Do they also not show correctly when you go to action groups and click on the engine?

They are behaving this way so that only one set of configs needed to be released; people without MFS can still use the engines, but people with MFS get the proper stats.

Yeah i was just confused because on the part list it shows stock fuels and then on the action groups it shows the fuels and values correctly.

Otherwise i really like the soviet engines maneuverability/modularity. Need one ton to orbit? Just use 1 Nk-33 with nk-43 upper stage. Oh you said 50 tons? Why not 10 nk-33's and 4 nk-43's?

Awesome how all this is shaping up so quickly.

[NathanKell]

ANWRocketMan: Cool! As I said to SFJackBauer, I'd like to have the "real engines" thing as the actual engines RO ships with; the fact we're using my alternate-history engines is because I had that lying around. As asmi's been joshing me about for a week, it makes no sense to have a realism mod with realistic engines that are fake. :]

(Well, it makes sense to me. But I'm weird. )

p3asant: Cool. Do give BobCat some love on his thread, though; he gets a lot of criticism and not enough thanks.

[ANWRocketMan]

Ha! Weird is good sometimes! I might try my hand at modelling engines starting next week. But I'm leaving for Mozambique by the 20th of December. And then I'm in university, studying Electronic and Computer Engineering(preliminarily). So I have until the 20th of February to get something done.

If successful we might get some proper baseless American/EU/Chinese/Japanese engines. Modularity for the win! As @p3asant said.

Edited November 25, 2013 by ANWRocketMan
All kinds of evil things

[MedievalNerd]

ANWRocketMan: Cool! As I said to SFJackBauer, I'd like to have the "real engines" thing as the actual engines RO ships with; the fact we're using my alternate-history engines is because I had that lying around. As asmi's been joshing me about for a week, it makes no sense to have a realism mod with realistic engines that are fake. :]

(Well, it makes sense to me. But I'm weird. )

p3asant: Cool. Do give BobCat some love on his thread, though; he gets a lot of criticism and not enough thanks.

Please keep me appraised on this amazing renaming/overhaul of the engines to 'real names. I will definitely update my tech tree to match the tech levels and all.

I'm going to sound annoying, but let's not forget to have engines that have higher than 0 minimum tech level based on their 'release date'.

Thanks a million,

[ANWRocketMan]

@MedievalNerd: Don't worry about that. My AJ 10 engine starts at tech level 1 at least(developed in the late 50's. It's tech ends up in the AJ 10-118K for example. My Merlin Engines(KW Rocketry models) start at tech level 6 just for balance(to represent Merlin 1C's). The J-2 starts at T3 and ends more or less at the J-2X like performance(although the size doesn't match). So does the SPS(AJ 10-137). I'm unsure as to what model to use but my RS-25 starts at T6 as well.

[MedievalNerd]

@MedievalNerd: Don't worry about that. My AJ 10 engine starts at tech level 1 at least(developed in the late 50's. It's tech ends up in the AJ 10-118K for example. My Merlin Engines(KW Rocketry models) start at tech level 6 just for balance(to represent Merlin 1C's). The J-2 starts at T3 and ends more or less at the J-2X like performance(although the size doesn't match). So does the SPS(AJ 10-137). I'm unsure as to what model to use but my RS-25 starts at T6 as well.

I'm crazy so you'll have to forgive my nagging.

Loving this!

[NathanKell]

You know, thanks to hoojiwana, we now even have a reasonable-looking AJ-10 bell!

Check the latest updates to Stockalikes.

I'd say make the AJ-10 TL0, actually, especially since in Vanguard it was only getting 270s. I'm adding RFNA to the next MFS, so you can set it to Nitric Acid / UDMH like the real deal (with appropriate Isp cost, the multiplier vs. Kerolox is about .913)

At TL1 you'd expect 295s for your vac Isp unmodified by fuel type. And as pressure fed it should certainly be O, not U.

I've been using the Bearcat S2 as the RS-25...the stats are set so at TL6 they match.

[ANWRocketMan]

I have it as O engine type. Will there ever be an update to disable certain fuel mixtures for certain tech levels in MFS? IThat would be nice addition. Especially considering the newer models(obviously the AJ 10-137 used in the Apollo SPS and the AJ 10-118K as used in the Delta-II second stage) use Aerozine-50 and Nitrogen Tetroxide instead. Otherwise, at least for now, we could make different .cfg's for them.

Well, the SpaceX launch has been rescheduled. So, I'm off to bed. I'll get back to ya tomorrow.

Edited November 25, 2013 by ANWRocketMan

[NathanKell]

ANWRocketMan: that's planned, yes, in coordination with MedievalNerd's tree.

[asmi]

. Need one ton to orbit? Just use 1 Nk-33 with nk-43 upper stage.

That's gonna make it for one hell of a ride for the payload though - at 170 tonnes of thrust it will push 1 tonne payload at ~150Gs I'd advise you using RD-0124 instead (used in third stage of real Soyuz-2.1b LV), or, if you want more effeciency - at a price of larger fuel tanks, use HydroLOx-powered RD-0146.

[gunnyfreak]

2 things:

1, can joint reinforcement be added to the modlist? Seems like it's almost required for good rockets on RSS

2, will be working on installing all these on my own, but does anyone have all these pre-installed and configured and is willing to upload the gamedata folder? (remove squad ofc, since piracy n all)

[NathanKell]

gunnyfreak: 1, yes, I should. 2. Medieval Nerd is working on such a pack.