[0.23.5] Realism Overhaul: ROv5.2 + Modlist for RSS 6/30/14

[NathanKell]

Spanier: I wasn't planning on it, since Stretchies will do for most things, but if you want to make one I'll certainly include it!

The additional part mods are not essential, no. They just give additional options.

What you're seeing is on account of some plugin's code dying. Post your output_log.txt; my guess is it's something like having two gimbal plugins, or installing both MFT and RF, or something like that. Or maybe having both HotRockets and RF?

eggrobin: don't *all* pressure vessels' mass scale linearly with volume?

I *really* like the idea of RCS feeding only from bladder tanks, especially since right now (HTP, N2O) we have RCS fuels that are also oxidizers, and it's hard work to prevent cross-feeding; it'll only get worse when I add biprop RCS.

It sounds like eventually I should implement an "add tank" interface with some comboboxes for RF, to select resource and tanktype. That'll take a fair amount of rewriting though.

Zyglrox: I just noticed that SFJackBauer is actually *never* setting maxTemp for engines, and leaving heats as original (pre-DRE) heat levels. Since DRE generally halves engine temperature, then yeah, halve the values in the configs.

[Spanier]

Spanier: I wasn't planning on it, since Stretchies will do for most things, but if you want to make one I'll certainly include it!

Ok, so here some technical questions for that:

1. Can I edit edited configs, say, a tank was modified by a .cfg, and I want to edit the same modules/parameters again with another .cfg

2. How does thrust, volume and mass change. Everything scales with 1.6³ (say 4.1), or thrust with 1.6²?

And for the engine FX:

output_log

[NathanKell]

1. Yes, you can. MM patches are processed like so: first pass does all regular nodes, second pass does all @NODE[name]:Final style nodes. Each pass is done in file-loading order (i.e. starting in root of gamedata, go to alphabetically first folder, then first folder inside of that, etc., load all cfgs in alphabetical order, then go to next folder). This is why RO patches use :Final whereas RF ones don't.

2. Thrust shouldn't be changing; let the engine configs do that. Everything else should be 1.6^3, yes, although for aerodynamic or other "hollow" parts like fairings / nosecones / etc, it's more like 1.6^2.2 or so. What part would you be rescaling that has thrust?

3. TTNeverUnload is throwing exceptions. Probably not .23 compatible? Remove it.

[Spanier]

2. Thrust shouldn't be changing; let the engine configs do that. Everything else should be 1.6^3, yes, although for aerodynamic or other "hollow" parts like fairings / nosecones / etc, it's more like 1.6^2.2 or so. What part would you be rescaling that has thrust?

3. TTNeverUnload is throwing exceptions. Probably not .23 compatible? Remove it.

2. Engines? They look strange when smaller than the tanks above

3. Dammit, I wanted that feature so bad, but without the whole Lazor stuff from Romfarer. Well, I think I have to cut it to my needings then

[NathanKell]

Spanier: Ah. Both RftS Engines and SFJackBauer's real engines do engine resizing as well as stat changing...and one or the other is pretty much required for RO (hence one or the other being included ). Oh, right, but SFJB's engine pack doesn't touch stock engines. Try RftS.

You can try recompiling it for .23 and seeing what the errors are; I doubt the system changed that much...

[eggrobin]

eggrobin: don't *all* pressure vessels' mass scale linearly with volume?

They do. I was confused.

I *really* like the idea of RCS feeding only from bladder tanks, especially since right now (HTP, N2O) we have RCS fuels that are also oxidizers, and it's hard work to prevent cross-feeding; it'll only get worse when I add biprop RCS.

It sounds like eventually I should implement an "add tank" interface with some comboboxes for RF, to select resource and tanktype. That'll take a fair amount of rewriting though.

Yes, several tank types per resource would solve a lot of problems. Not only the 'main engines feeding to RCS' problem, but also fancier things like life support (life support O2 and H2 in the Apollo SM or STS shouldn't be drained by the engines, and having a separate resource for the same thing would be an inelegant solution).

Plus, the idea of RCS that doesn't work under acceleration or whose thrust decreases with use sounds like potential for hilarious failure.

[Spanier]

You can try recompiling it for .23 and seeing what the errors are; I doubt the system changed that much...

recompiling? What program do I use for that?

Edit:

You didn't rescale the engines with 1.6, did you, they don't fit the capsules :/

Edit2:

And the cockpits aren't touched either, I'll remove the torque

And why has the smaller pod 4 times more electricity, then the large one???

Edit3:

I finished the work on the cockpits (yeah, first time doing that takes the longest)

tried to do something to the engines and ....

well ...

Seriously?

I can't read a word!

Please, I want metric engines so bad

Edit4:

What the ....

Edited January 30, 2014 by Spanier

[palker]

I would like to ask how long will liquid hydrogen last in tanks before it evaporates. I want to to do Moon mission and i am wondering if it is possible to use it in the upper stages or if it will disappear like the time i sent hydrogen/oxygen fueled probe to Eve and when i got there i found that there was no more H2 fuel left.

[AbeS]

Put a LH2 tank in the launchpad (preferably in a cryo tank, which you should use for cryogenic fuels). Set an alarm with KAC for the days you are planning to spend on your mission, let's say 15 days. Then time warp! Then check the fuel left, most of it should still be there

[Zyglrox]

NathanKell,

For the next RO version, in the RCS_KW.cfg file, please take the whole section "@PART[KWrcsQuad]" and copy it with the same contents under a name "@PART[KWrcsQuad45]".

(KW has added new angled thrusters in one of their latest versions with the same stats, but no config for them yet)

[darcgekco]

Question: what are the units of the gimbalresponsespeed parameter? I'm making a 1:1 shuttle and trying to make a 10 degree gimbal actually work without being uncontrollable.

Also, I'm getting a weird bug in the editor where if I rightclick on certain engines, including both of the LR69 variants, they bug out in mass somehow, making the COM indicator disappear and causing mechjeb to display any mass related measurement (TWR, etc.) as NaN. This can be fixed by deleting the engine and replacing it from the parts list.

[Spanier]

2. Thrust shouldn't be changing; let the engine configs do that. Everything else should be 1.6^3, yes, although for aerodynamic or other "hollow" parts like fairings / nosecones / etc, it's more like 1.6^2.2 or so. What part would you be rescaling that has thrust?

Where and how do I rescale drag with FAR?

[Zyglrox]

NathanKell, it's me again pestering you

RealChute.cfg has two sections of "PART[RC_drogue_small]" while one of them should be "PART[RC_drogue_small_stack]".

Also, these can be added too:

@PART[RC_combo_small_stack]
{
    @MODEL
    {
        @scale = 0.265625, 0.25, 0.265625
    }

    @rescaleFactor = 1.6
    @title = RealChute Combo Chutes - 1m Stack
}


@PART[RC_combo_large_stack]
{
    @MODEL
    {
        @scale = 0.5875, 0.5625, 0.5875
    }

    @rescaleFactor = 1.6
    @title = RealChute Combo Chutes - 2m Stack
}

Please fix/add this in the next version too.

There are also [RC_combo_small] and [RC_combo_large] missing, but they have weird clipping when rescaled, so maybe missing them is intentional, I don't know.

[Zyglrox]

Also, I'm getting a weird bug in the editor where if I rightclick on certain engines, including both of the LR69 variants, they bug out in mass somehow, making the COM indicator disappear and causing mechjeb to display any mass related measurement (TWR, etc.) as NaN. This can be fixed by deleting the engine and replacing it from the parts list.

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleEngines],@RESOURCE[ElectricCharge]]
{
	@RESOURCE[ElectricCharge]
	{
		%isTweakable = false
		%hideFlow = true
	}
}

fixes it.

[NathanKell]

Spanier:

You use Visual C# Express if on Windows.

Regarding engines: no, I am not using a blanket 1.6x rescale. The point of Realism Overhaul is realism, not "make things 1.6x bigger."

I haven't done spaceplane parts at all yet....

Electricity: because the small pod is replicating Mercury and other small 1-person pods, which generally have a large set of batteries and that's it, whereas the large pod replicates Apollo and other 3-person pods that generally have a small set of batteries and rely on solar panels or fuel cells for electricity over time.

What did you want to do to the engines? (That text file...open it in wordpad maybe. It looks like Notepad isn't recognizing the linebreaks for some reason.)

As to the pic: unknown. What did you place, what mods are you running, that sort of thing.

Zyglrox: yup, fixed on my end, but it must not have been in v3 (and thus will come in v4).

darcgekco: ask careo, but I think it's degrees per second.

Spanier; FAR calculates drag based on part size. You don't have to worry about it. Just make sure that when you resize parts you change the attachnode size appropriately (a 4m fuel tank should have size 4 top and bottom nodes)

Zyglrox: I'll check the RealChutes code. They should probably be new parts anyway, not rescales; I just added the file jrandom uploaded as an RO version of RealChutes without checking it much.

[Spanier]

Just make sure that when you resize parts you change the attachnode size appropriately (a 4m fuel tank should have size 4 top and bottom nodes)

Ah, so the attach, top and bottom nodes need to be right

Right now, I had a rocket stage planking while falling down

The point of Realism Overhaul is realism, not "make things 1.6x bigger."

Yeah, but realism doesn't mean cloning of reality to me, just to make things more realistic, and I know that the stock engines are oversized, but that's the way the game is designed. I just want to have a real sized, fun space flight simulator with coherent design.

Best thing would be a section in the R&D facility, where we can design and develop parts from the technologies, we unlocked (needs the implementation of money )

Anyone remembers the procedural parts generator? I know, it's a rather old concept, but with the combined will and programming power of all the mod-creators, that would be the true awesomeness

Edited January 31, 2014 by Spanier

[darcgekco]

Nathan, I'd just like to note how satisfying it is to pull the space shuttle ET dimensions from wikipedia, make an identical stretchy tank, fill it with hydrolox and end up with a mass that is almost identical to the real one.

That said, I did the same thing with the SRBs, and while the correct mass and thrust did produce the correct burntime, the SRB was a good 5 metres shorter than wikipedia said it should be, so not sure what's causing that.

Regardless, these mods are awesome, and I really appreciate all the work you and the other modders have put into them.

[NathanKell]

Spanier: I'm basically committed to making a procedural engines mod, it's just a longer-term goal.

As for engine configs, in that case try RftSEngines, it's probably more what you want.

darcgekco: cool!

Yeah, the SSRB's volume utilization is a bit high. For now find the volMultiplier for the two SRBs in RealFuels/Stretchy.cfg and decrease it in each case.

Also, do note that the length given for a stretchy SRB is length of the casing *only*, not including the nozzle. That'll add a good 2m or so for a shuttle SRB-sized booster., and then another 2-3m for the nose cone.

Thanks so much!

[darcgekco]

Also, do note that the length given for a stretchy SRB is length of the casing *only*, not including the nozzle. That'll add a good 2m or so for a shuttle SRB-sized booster., and then another 2-3m for the nose cone.

Yeah, I was including the empty cone tank I used's length (like 3m) and just guessed that the nozzle was ~2 metres long. The actual measurement the SRB gives is like 32m and the shuttle SRB is supposed to be 45 or so.

Also, For some reason the hitboxes of the buildings at KSC are dodgy and there are only certain spots where you can click certain buildings. The SPH is the worst offender, with a bunch of spots where your mouse is over the SPH but your click registers on the astronaut complex instead. Is this a known issue?

Edited February 1, 2014 by darcgekco

[Guest]

Don't forget that there are several solid fuels in use. I suppose it'd be nice to have some variation in that field, too, but we're stuck with a single, generic type of fuel for now.

[NathanKell]

darcgekco: the clicking issue occurs only on first load of the space center; once you get in VAB/SPH/Tracking and go back out it should be normal.

I'm testing a build of Stretchy that lets you set part volume utilization; that should help. It's also an issue for liquid stages, where shorter, fatter stages should have lower volume utilization.

[junkie_business]

Me again...

So, resizing. I've resized things before without any problem, but I'm trying to resize the middle PLF to your black and white LFT. It's not working.

Pic related.

The top tank is the original FASA size, the transparent one is the resized plate, only it's a lot bigger that it should be. How does this work? Is nothing in this game straightforward?

[NathanKell]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused. What black and white LFT of mine?

Try rescaling it the way I do it in FASA.cfg (note that I don't touch rescaleFactor, or if I do I also use 1/rescaleFactor for the scale inside the MODEL node).

[junkie_business]

I mean the FASA tank that you rescaled, in the picture. Since the PLF was the same size as the original tank, I should just be able to change the .cfg to match the scale, right? But that doesn't work (like it has when I've scaled other parts), it comes out like the transparent part in the picture. That measures up at 1.4 times the original width.

[jpinard]

This is soooo super awesome!!