[1.12] Extraplanetary Launchpads v6.99.3

[Alo]

Taniwha, I have vessel explosion few second after production finished, even if if's already released, when production finished at time warp (and it turn back to x1 automatically). When I change time warp manually to x1 it always works well. State of launchpad is prelaunch or landed.

And could you look at recycler issue. When it count mass of resourses to produce more metal, then from dry part.

[Tinweasele]

Hey searched the threads and couldnt find anything like this, warped through vessel production (i know i know) and i went to TS and back, vessel is gone and the Launchpad 2 can no longer produce anything. Any ideas on fixes/causes?

[taniwha]

Tinweasele: your EL is out of date. You cannot warp through vessel production any more (EL kills warp).

[Tinweasele]

Thanks! downloading now.

Love this community soo much.

edit- updated EL but my ui doesnt show the ability to build any new vehicles with my launchpad2:( any thoughts on a fix?

Edited March 22, 2014 by Tinweasele

[taniwha]

Screenshots would help.Vague descriptions amounting to "it doesn't work" are not very helpful.

[Tinweasele]

My apologies on vagueness, i always assume with computers i'm not the first person to run into an issue:-)

[taniwha]

I feel like Fezzik when he did something right.

Curious, was it a config change or something with the model? If it's a config change I'd love to make it to every capsule

Sorry, I noticed this only just now. The fix was to move the collider in a but such that it's partially inside the main mesh.

[taniwha]

My apologies on vagueness, i always assume with computers i'm not the first person to run into an issue:-)

Being vague doesn't help even if you're the 100th person

Anyway, I suspect that's a holdover from previous failed attempts and the pad is in a confused state. Back up your saves and try following the instructions in my comment in this issue that 5thHorseman reported a while back.

[taniwha]

And could you look at recycler issue. When it count mass of resourses to produce more metal, then from dry part.

This doesn't make sense, unless you're getting confused by solid fuel or ablative shielding (DRE), as they both count towards metal

[Alo]

This doesn't make sense, unless you're getting confused by solid fuel or ablative shielding (DRE), as they both count towards metal

Test on 4.0.2:

1: recycle empty fuel tank

2: recycle full fuel tank

[taniwha]

Alo: very nice test rig, and a very nice demonstration. Thank you... I think :/ (no, really, thank you. This makes it easy for me to test).

[edit]Ugh, I hate these bugs: can't see them when they're staring you in the face. I had forgotten to remove the resources before calculating the vessel's mass. I think I might have in the past, but the code got lost in a cleanup.

Anyway, the fix will be in the next release.

Edited March 23, 2014 by taniwha

[Tallinu]

Taniwha, I have vessel explosion few second after production finished, even if if's already released, when production finished at time warp (and it turn back to x1 automatically). When I change time warp manually to x1 it always works well. State of launchpad is prelaunch or landed.

Honestly, just cancelling timewarp isn't enough... I'm really not surprised that things explode. Even without large structures docked together with KAS attachments or clamp-o-trons, things can twitch and shudder quite violently when coming out of timewarp - even more so if they're landed. This seems to increase exponentially the larger the structures get. The physics engine needs time to settle things down after unpacking, BEFORE something new gets spawned and docked onto it all.

Any time I let EL cancel timewarp, or do it myself just a little too late and it constructs the new craft while things are jerking about, I seem to have a good 50% chance of my whole damn base exploding as soon as I release the craft. But if I slow it down early and wait out the last 20 seconds at 1x, I have yet to have any issues. Except, paradoxically, with constructing very light items on an orbital dock, such as lone KAS containers full of goodies - they apparently count as slightly too close to the dock, and on release, they spontaneously combust.

Taniwha: With progressive builds enabled, would it be very difficult to add one more button click between completion and the actual construction of the craft? So, when the last .01 rocket part is consumed, it kills timewarp - but intead of instantly trying to assemble the project, the "pause build" button becomes a "Finish Assembly" button, which can only be clicked when at 1x time and the situation is stable (like, you can right click on solar panels and extend/retract them - which you can't do in the first few seconds after exiting timewarp). I believe this would significantly reduce the frequency and severity of problems.

I'd also like to comment on Rocket Parts as a resource. I think they should stay. You don't assemble a ship out of raw metal, after all - nor do you hand-craft every screw, washer, panel, and hose. Many common components and materials are mass-produced, and then processed further into specific part designs, and I think RP are a good representation of that intermediate stage. The way I see it, the Kerbals working in the workshop are turning the common, mass-produced components, sheet metal, plastic, wire, transistors (or perhaps vacuum tubes?!), and so on into the actual "parts" (in the KSP VAB sense) used in whatever is being built, and then, finally, assembling those parts into the complete ship out on the launchpad or construction dock (That's the step I suggested adding the new button for).

Everyone: One thing I've discovered is that it really helps to keep the bottom-most collidable component of whatever you're building separated from the launchpad or construction dock using pre-extended landing legs, ladders, even antennas, or rover wheels. All of the above shift the "bottom" of the craft down below the real "solid" parts of it, making sure (okay, 99%) that they don't clip into the dock/pad and explode when released.

Finally: Hooray for launching half a dozen small lander-probes from Ike and setting them down on Duna, each one leaving a tiny sub-probe in orbit, then raining them down for massive seismometer science points. Thanks, EL and KSPI!.

(Here's a shot of the lander I was using if anyone's interested: http://imgur.com/a/1wRdE#4 )

Edited March 23, 2014 by Tallinu

[taniwha]

D'oh, of course. Thank you, I should have thought of that. I've had plenty of trouble launching big ships due to that issue.

If I can't find what makes the menu button appear, I'll use your suggestion of the extra step, but I'd rather avoid excessive button pushing.

I took a look through your shots: nice setup. Where's #23? I don't recognize the scenery.

[edit]everyone: I'll see what I can do for the next release (finding what to wait for, or just adding an extra button), but until then, falling Tallinu's suggestion of waiting out the last little bit at 1x.

Edited March 23, 2014 by taniwha

[taniwha]

Tallinu: some extra comments.

ReocketParts: for symbolic manufacture, they work well (and for a basic mode, I'll keep them), but at the same time I really want to get into more detail with the resources. Instead of Metal and RocketParts, silicon, aluminum, iron, titanium etc. A lot of the work that went into 3.7 and 4.0 was towards this goal.

KAS containers: I haven't looked at them yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if their colliders are a little off, though to be honest, I don't see how that would be the case as it's the collider that determines the extent of a part. Still, I'll look into it.

[Tallinu]

http://imgur.com/a/1wRdE#23 ? That's Kerbin, some peninsula that happened to be where a lander was returning. I don't remember exactly where. Maybe it's the edge of the big impact crater?

I'd honestly prefer the extra button-pushing to having it spawn automatically - what if I'd switched from the base to something else in the area while waiting for it to finish, and was in the middle of hovering some previously built heavy station module into position, and suddenly my computer (already getting only a couple FPS at that base shown in those pictures) freezes up to spawn the next thing, or the appearance of it causes the pad to shift and make the base jitter, or... who knows what could go wrong? The more control the user has, the better, in my opinion.

If you're not using progressive builds, of course, there'd be no need for an additional click - that first click on the "build" button, which I'm assuming can't be done during timewarp either, is the equivalent of everything that comes before "release". And you could always add a config option to use or not use the extra button. Yeah, I know, it's more work for what might not seem like much of an improvement. It's up to you, of course. But I, for one, would really appreciate that option.

I actually did get my whole base exploding once* tonight even though I'd slowed it down half a minute before the craft spawned, on one of my tiny little lander probes even. I think I may have clicked "release" too soon, though. And like I mentioned, my old Core 2 Duo is only giving me a scant few frames per second at that base. The transition when those landers launch and get past the 2.3km mark is startling - it feels like suddenly zipping to 10x timewarp. I've seriously overshot my intended AP at least twice because of that transition. XD

(* So far I've had two, maybe three base explosions, promptly quickloading, for some eleven successful builds there - mostly shooting off those science lander probes. Amazingly, I built the pictured 18+ ton smelter module on that pad with no problems.)

Best advice: Pause build, quicksave, resume. Do it before starting, do it near the end (around 2/3 to 80% depending on how long a build it is), then do it again with 2-5 rocket parts left to consume. Don't leave the scene with it running and expect it to be done when you return (if it is, it'll try to spawn instantly, while the scene is still unstable). Don't leave the area while anything is on the pad un-released (I've had it "lose" the unreleased craft and the pad stop responding several times while testing various things). If you have to leave the scene, pause build first. Try not to let TAC Fuel Balancer or Kethane processing or anything else cram resources into the "docked ship" before hitting release, the CoM shifts might throw things off. And don't forget the landing legs, etc.

Edit: Just thought of a really good reason to have that extra button. Hypothetical yet very plausible situation:

I've just completed a build and released it. Craft is sitting on the pad just fine. Before taking control of it I start a new build (I know I just said don't do that, but ideally this is something you'd want to be able to leave running in the background). Then I switch to it and take off. Before the next point at which the game can write the persistence file, KSP crashes. I get fed up and go to bed. The next day I come back and head to the VAB to design something new, entirely forgetting about the ship I'd queued up. I fly something around, quicksave, do whatever, land, quicksave, recover the craft or just go back to the space center, then decide to get back to what I'd been doing the previous night. I switch to the base with the launchpad, which has had time to complete construction of the queued up craft - but because everything that happened from the point where I'd removed the previous craft from the pad never got saved due to the crash, that craft is already sitting on the pad. We now have two craft occupying the same space, with no opportunity to prevent this.

"Wow! Very exploding! Such loud! Many disappointment! No insurances?" Or, "All your base are on the way to destruction! Ha ha ha!"

Edited March 23, 2014 by Tallinu

[Justin Kerbice]

This mods sounds good but... someone forgot to include documentation on how we are supposed to use it and how parts works together That's might explains some issues people have (improper usage), I suspect a spaceballized kerbal to have dump it onto the recycle bin trying to build a rocket to leave.

Example: I add auger to a vehicle but it has no context menu. I can't even know if I'm wrong or not, annoying.

Tiny copyright issue: you forgot to add talisar in the short readme (the readme in the archive is even shorter than the one on github project page) for spherical tanks.

[taniwha]

I'd honestly prefer the extra button-pushing to having it spawn automatically - what if I'd switched from the base to something else in the area while waiting for it to finish, and was in the middle of hovering some previously built heavy station module into position, and suddenly my computer (already getting only a couple FPS at that base shown in those pictures) freezes up to spawn the next thing, or the appearance of it causes the pad to shift and make the base jitter, or... who knows what could go wrong? The more control the user has, the better, in my opinion.

That's enough of an argument for me. Button it is. Especially since I found the mechanism action buttons use and my tests didn't indicate it was sufficient (I couldn't see any difference so I don't trust it).

Actually, I think iinsta-builds can be done in timewarp, but I agree: they should not be (easy fix though: disable buttons in timewarp).

Yeah, I'm now convinced the button is the right way to go. I just didn't want to have too many buttons. Currently, there's no background building, but I'm very seriously considering putting it in, and you're right: best to have the button for that.

[BudgetHedgehog]

This mods sounds good but... someone forgot to include documentation on how we are supposed to use it and how parts works together

Honestly, I've been hesitating to download this mod because of this. I have no idea how the things work together (I get the basic idea: scan for ore->mine ore->smelt to metal->convert to rocket parts-> build rockets) but actually building the infrastructure is something I don't know, nor do I know if it's easy to pick up. Some kind of guide or wiki explaining the parts and process would go a long way.

[Donziboy2]

Is it possible to just designate an open area as the spawn point? I have had alot of issues with craft spawning on Pad 2 and getting stuck, and then as im trying to get it unstuck everything goes up in flames. Or spawning halfway on it and sometimes tearing my base apart...

[jinks]

@taniwha: Since you're in the process of adding buttons...

Would it be possible to add a "Go to VAB" button to the pad GUI? I have no idea if KSP even allows mods to do scene transitions, but doing a quick build for your base (like the aforementioned KAS container full of goodies) is quite a chore right now. Base -> SpaceCenter -> VAB -> SpaceCenter -> Tracking Station -> Base; all with multi-second scene transitions.

Bonus points for a "Go to last active pad" button in the VAB GUI.

[Superfluous J]

Honestly, I've been hesitating to download this mod because of this. I have no idea how the things work together (I get the basic idea: scan for ore->mine ore->smelt to metal->convert to rocket parts-> build rockets) but actually building the infrastructure is something I don't know, nor do I know if it's easy to pick up. Some kind of guide or wiki explaining the parts and process would go a long way.

In its simplest form, you have it all set. Those things just need to all be on the same craft or set of crafts with a ferry to carry the stuff around. There are two ways to do it:

Land everything on your planet, in an ore field. "Everything" is a drill, a smelter, a rocket workshop, and at least one container each for ore, metal, and rocket parts, and finally a launch pad or (my personal favorite) orbital assembly port. You don't need to land one huge ship with all of these things but on small worlds like Gilly or Pol it's not impossible. If you land them sepearately, though, you will need to dock them together on the ground (which frankly is harder than just giving up on the whole thing and resigning yourself to launching everything from Kerbin) or install Kerbal Attachment System and hook things together with pipes. Once you've hooked everything up, start the drills, furnace, and rocket factory and you should start getting rocket parts.

Another option is to land part of the assemblage on the planet, and then truck a resource up to orbit where you do the rest of the job. I personally like to do everything up to rocket parts on the surface and then use a shuttle to bring those parts up to an orbital station where I build my ships. Though in the newest version you may want to truck Metal up instead as recycling turns things into Metal.

[taniwha]

This mods sounds good but... someone forgot to include documentation on how we are supposed to use it and how parts works together That's might explains some issues people have (improper usage), I suspect a spaceballized kerbal to have dump it onto the recycle bin trying to build a rocket to leave.

I'm too busy changing how EL works to write documentation for it that will be out of date all too quickly.

Example: I add auger to a vehicle but it has no context menu. I can't even know if I'm wrong or not, annoying.

Install Kethane.

[Tallinu]

Land everything on your planet, in an ore field.

It helps to find an ore field that overlaps with a kethane field. I usually find at least one to three such locations on a planet. The kethane electric generator is wonderful for dealing with changing electrical requirements, especially at night. Otherwise you can always ship in kethane and/or fuel.

"Everything" is a drill, a smelter, a rocket workshop, and at least one container each for ore, metal, and rocket parts, and finally a launch pad or (my personal favorite) orbital assembly port.

Converting ore to metal is the biggest bottleneck I've found. Small drill, big smelter (if possible). If you're bringing along a workshop, you don't need any other parts that convert metal to RP, it will do the job for you.

I started my Ike base with Bahamuto's small drilll, a tiny smelter, the small kethane drill, the small kethane converter, and the kethane generator on one lander, and used another vessel to haul the metal to my orbiting command ship. Then I built and landed a workshop and launchpad, at which point I used them to construct a large smelter on the surface.

If you land them sepearately, though, you will need to dock them together on the ground (which frankly is harder than just giving up on the whole thing and resigning yourself to launching everything from Kerbin) or install Kerbal Attachment System and hook things together with pipes.

I've used both approaches in the same base. KAS is amazing for hooking up mobile units like rovers or surface-to-orbit freighters. But if you design each module with landing engines, it's not too hard to use those same engines to fine tune the height of docking ports and thrust with RCS to get them to attach more easily. I'll pastebin an example module - the large smeltery I added - which shows off a number of the techniques I've picked up. Vertical-snap for landing leg positioning, rover wheels for easy maneuvering and positioning of modules, vertical engines and horizontal RCS are the main items on the list. And I recommend a number of reaction wheels for heavy modules.

Example: http://pastebin.com/JJ9sH1QD

[DivisionByZero]

So, I just downloaded this mod and was looking into some of the details of the parts. In particular, I was looking at the energy/mass requirements for the smelters. (You may have gotten a comment about this at some point, but this forum's search function is pretty nasty to find something in an 80+ page thread.)

Any way, I can see from the part file that the appropriate stoichiometry was used to determine the production rate of Fe from Fe2O3. However, the electric charge required seems way off, at least, if I interpret the number "3" as 3 tons and the electric power "10" as 10 kW. If you go through the Fe2O3 + 3CO -> 2 Fe + 3CO2 reaction enthalpies of formation it turns out that this reaction requires 23 kJ/mol Fe2O3. This translates into the conversion of 1 ton of Fe2O3 into ~700kg Fe requiring 144.6 MJ. To convert 3.48ton ore per second then requires about 500 MW of power. This is assuming 100% efficiency. It's a lot of juice, but not so bad if you have some of the reactors found in the Interplanetary mod.

Love the mod so far!

Extra information:

Comparison page: http://ietd.iipnetwork.org/content/smelting-reduction

first process listed has a 1 million ton/yr plant requiring roughly 450MW thermal + 45MW electrical power. assuming 100% uptime (3.15e7s/yr), this is a conversion rate of 0.0317 ton Fe/s, which in an ideal world costs only 6.5MW via the enthalpies of formation.

Edited March 28, 2014 by DivisionByZero

[Jim3535]

I'm having an issue where I can't get anything to build. I have had it working in the past, but my new construction rovers just sit at 0% forever.

I am using some of Baha's parts for drills, containers, and extra small smelter.

This is what my rovers look like. They have the resources, but they just don't want to build. My installed mod list is in the imgur gallery.

http://imgur.com/a/HnEqR