[1.12] Extraplanetary Launchpads v6.99.3

[Xentoe]

Hmmm I wonder if it is posisble (could be doable) to build a orbital constructionbay.

I mean, you mine and stuff on a planet, ship it up to the orbital bay and build there than for example big solarsystem explorer ships.

It is ever so a pain in the ass to make all this tons of docking....

[Josh Hawley]

It is totally possible. There is a part called orbital construction dock. Does exactly that. I would recommend converting the ore -> metal -> rocket parts before shipping though.

[Donziboy2]

Yes and no. Parts flat out don't work in many situations. The single most common question amongst the various mods, ignoring "I can't install this right, what have I done wrong," would be "I put this and this together and they don't work. WHY?! It should work..." Notice the 2nd post above this one? Yeah....

Putting your drills with the drill bits point upwards, away from the ground? Not going to work as intended. Someone will need a FAQ or guide for that. Attaching EL's Orbital dock with the big end facing parts containers? Not going to work as intended. You say "open ended" but that doesn't work so well when you block the business end of a part.

Your neglecting the fact that there are many people who wont read the page they are posting on or in some cases the the big RED text the author posted warning them. I have even seen people ask questions and the answer is in the title......

Do we need a guide? Maybe...

How many will read it? Very few.....

[KeithStone]

It just keeps getting weirder and weirder. I made a big launch pad and unfolded it on the surface of ike. I spawned some parts on it, and its root part exploded. That has to be key here. Every time something has exploded it was a root part.

I had this issue as well, and only on occasion would certain parts explode or not load properly. I agree that it has to do with the root part, since that was my experience as well.

HOWEVER, I may have a little more information regarding this.

I accidentally quicksaved AFTER starting construction of a rover that had it's root part explode. After quite a few quickloads, I changed the orientation of the orbital construction pad I was using since I attached it to some of the robotics parts. If the orientation of the pad was the same direction as the root part of the craft created, there was no explosion and it worked perfectly. If the pad was at a 90 degree angle, explosion ensued. I'm thinking there might be something to the orientation of the craft spawned, but I'm not sure. All i know is it seems to work for me to change the direction of the pad itself.

[Dzugavili]

I'm finding it unclear how to make this work.

I put an orbital construction pad on a station in orbit, with enough parts to build whatever. But the build percentage is stuck at 0%.

What am I doing wrong here?

[Starstrider42]

I'm finding it unclear how to make this work.

I put an orbital construction pad on a station in orbit, with enough parts to build whatever. But the build percentage is stuck at 0%.

What am I doing wrong here?

You need a crew of smart kerbals (stupid ones will actually slow you down), and you need to give them space to work. Kerbals in command pods will have the smallest effect on construction rate, those in hitchhikers slightly more, those in labs still more, and those in the new Construction Workshop part most of all.

So most likely you have too many stupid kerbonauts on your crew, and they're getting in the way of their smarter peers.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I'm finding it unclear how to make this work.

I put an orbital construction pad on a station in orbit, with enough parts to build whatever. But the build percentage is stuck at 0%.

What am I doing wrong here?

Do you have either a workshop or a command pod (as well as ModuleManager installed) up there too?

[Dzugavili]

ObsessedWithKSP;1115470]Do you have either a workshop or a command pod (as well as ModuleManager installed) up there too?

I do have a workshop, but I did not have ModuleManager installed. Will that make Kerbals in other compartments help?

How would this add up with the stupid Kerbonauts from below?

You need a crew of smart kerbals (stupid ones will actually slow you down), and you need to give them space to work. Kerbals in command pods will have the smallest effect on construction rate, those in hitchhikers slightly more, those in labs still more, and those in the new Construction Workshop part most of all.

So most likely you have too many stupid kerbonauts on your crew, and they're getting in the way of their smarter peers.

Ah, well, yes, there's a workshop, but I think it's a single skeleton crew on the station. He's probably an idiot, I'll arrange a personnel transfer.

[Dzugavili]

So most likely you have too many stupid kerbonauts on your crew, and they're getting in the way of their smarter peers.

Well, right now it's a skeleton crew -- I was hoping to manufacture the hab complexes for the station in orbit. But that might be doing it.

Do you have either a workshop or a command pod (as well as ModuleManager installed) up there too?

There is one kerbal in a lander can, I believe. However, ModuleManager, as sourced from here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/55219-Module-Manager-2-0-3-%28Apr-22%29?highlight=ModuleManager

causes a fatal error in my game, so that won't work.

[Superfluous J]

Suggestion for the mod: Add on-screen text describing why your build percentage is at 0%. I know you don't want to divulge your exact formula but at least "Your kerbals are to stupid to build anything. Try bringing smarter ones next time!" or "Your dumb Kerbals are slowing down the smart ones, send them off the station to get more work done!"

Also, is there a way in-game to see those stats, other than the astronaut complex? It'd be nice to have a list of your Kerbals with their stupid/couragous stats so you could more easily decide who to kick off the station.

And finally, while someone COULD just read back a few pages to find the answer, go a little easy on the people asking this question. As far as I know this is the ONLY thing in the entire universe of this game that takes those stats into account, except the little funny animations of course. It's not THAT weird to be confused about it.

[Starstrider42]

I do have a workshop, but I did not have ModuleManager installed. Will that make Kerbals in other compartments help?

How would this add up with the stupid Kerbonauts from below?

Without MM, any kerbonauts (stupid or smart) outside the workshop will have no effect. So basically, same rules as I quoted, except only smart kerbals in the workshop help you, and only stupid kerbals in the workshop hurt you.

My apologies; I've played so long with Module Manager that I forgot it was a prerequisite.

Also, something I forgot to include in my explanation: if you right click on any (crewed?) part, the menu will show you "part productivity", which is basically a measure of how good your kerbals are at extraplanetary construction. It will also show you "vessel productivity", which is just the sum of part productivity across all parts, and is the stat you want to maximize to get fast builds. Before you start moving kerbals around, check if it's negative.

Also, is there a way in-game to see those stats, other than the astronaut complex? It'd be nice to have a list of your Kerbals with their stupid/couragous stats so you could more easily decide who to kick off the station.

Actually, there is: go into map view, then click the kerbonaut icon on the right side of the screen. You'll get a complete crew list by part, with stupidity/courage stats for each.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Starstrider42

[jinks]

As far as I know this is the ONLY thing in the entire universe of this game that takes those stats into account, except the little funny animations of course. It's not THAT weird to be confused about it.

There's at least the KSPI Science Lab and the upcoming Modular Kolonization System which also take stupidity into account.

I'm thinking about actually removing the ModuleManager config for workshops so I can use the stupid ones to pilot the braniacs around. That's a good idea, right? Dumbest guy sits at the controls, what could possibly go wrong?

[undercoveryankee]

As far as I know this is the ONLY thing in the entire universe of this game that takes those stats into account, except the little funny animations of course. It's not THAT weird to be confused about it.

This and some of Interstellar's science things.

[Starstrider42]

There's at least the KSPI Science Lab and the upcoming Modular Kolonization System which also take stupidity into account.

I'm thinking about actually removing the ModuleManager config for workshops so I can use the stupid ones to pilot the braniacs around. That's a good idea, right? Dumbest guy sits at the controls, what could possibly go wrong?

Well, I've been playing Final Frontier, which basically has three roles: pilot, engineer, and scientist. Guess where I put all the stupid ones.

In my experience, it's usually enough if you put the counterproductive kerbals in a command pod. Since command pods are terrible workshops, they get outweighed by the kerbals who are in the official Workshop.

[Deredere]

You have got to be ****ting me with this "dumb kerbals can't build things" nonsense.

[BudgetHedgehog]

You have got to be ****ting me with this "dumb kerbals can't build things" nonsense.

What's wrong with it?

[Dzugavili]

What's wrong with it?

Well, it could be argued that these are all astronauts, and not complete idiots. As such, while some might not be incredibly productive, dumb Kerbals providing negative productivity seems odd.

[Deredere]

What's wrong with it?

Well, practically speaking, I've been waiting like 4 months for EPL to... achieve a more refined state before attempting some cool things with a Jool space colony. Now it seems Kerbin's chief export to Jool this coming quarter will be high school graduates who can successfully weld a beam.

Speaking from a "realistic" point of view, why are Kerbals too stupid to read an instruction manual allowed outside the janitorial staff room at KSC? I can understand varying rates of progress, but this is a space program, not a Miss America pageant. Monkeys ceased to be useful when the rockets mostly stopped exploding.

Speaking from a game design point of view, being stuck at 0% forever with no explanation is... I mean...

Ugh

[Superfluous J]

Speaking from a "realistic" point of view, why are Kerbals too stupid to read an instruction manual allowed outside the janitorial staff room at KSC? I can understand varying rates of progress, but this is a space program, not a Miss America pageant. Monkeys ceased to be useful when the rockets mostly stopped exploding.

Speaking from a game design point of view, being stuck at 0% forever with no explanation is... I mean...

Agreed on both points. I think however the nubmers are calculated, the lowest possible number should be 0 instead of something negative (with max stupidity and courage) and the highest possible would then be 1 (or whatever) for lowest stupidity and highest courage. That way no matter who you have (unless you edited your persistent file) SOME work can get done.

But in any case, you can edit your persistent file and search for "TimedBuilds". Change it from "True" to "False" and ELP will go back to building things immediately. The way Jool intended.

[Deredere]

Ah, I was wondering about that. Appreciate it.

I mean. Timed builds would have been/will be a cool idea. But it needs to work, however slowly, as long as all conditions are satisfied.

[KeithStone]

I had this issue as well, and only on occasion would certain parts explode or not load properly. I agree that it has to do with the root part, since that was my experience as well.

HOWEVER, I may have a little more information regarding this.

I accidentally quicksaved AFTER starting construction of a rover that had it's root part explode. After quite a few quickloads, I changed the orientation of the orbital construction pad I was using since I attached it to some of the robotics parts. If the orientation of the pad was the same direction as the root part of the craft created, there was no explosion and it worked perfectly. If the pad was at a 90 degree angle, explosion ensued. I'm thinking there might be something to the orientation of the craft spawned, but I'm not sure. All i know is it seems to work for me to change the direction of the pad itself.

Weird for me still but possibly related to Josh's issue, is that the pad in question was raised about 10 meters in the air when construction was good. The new pad, the large "+" launchpad, cant seem to spawn anything without explosion of root part. Selectroot to change the part doesnt seem to help do anything but cause a different part to explode.

[Booots]

It just keeps getting weirder and weirder. I made a big launch pad and unfolded it on the surface of ike. I spawned some parts on it, and its root part exploded. That has to be key here. Every time something has exploded it was a root part.

I was going to post about this a few days ago but decided to keep messing with things until it worked. Still no luck so maybe it's an actual bug. Everything I've built has been from the SPH so the orientation is definitely not consistent with the pad. Building things on the Mun seems to work but not my base on Pol. I wonder if it has something to do with the "ground" level and the elevation map leading to a false collision detection on craft spawn?

EDIT: It is always the root part for me too. And only the root part. The rest freezes in place until I go to the space center and then it enters a sub-orbital trajectory and disappears. I managed to switch to it once and it cut to a black screen (no stars), a black nav ball, and altitude numbers that went 99999999 88888888 and so on. It was super weird. Oh, and no commands did anything and I had to force quit the game.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Booots

[KeithStone]

I was going to post about this a few days ago but decided to keep messing with things until it worked. Still no luck so maybe it's an actual bug. Everything I've built has been from the SPH so the orientation is definitely not consistent with the pad. Building things on the Mun seems to work but not my base on Pol. I wonder if it has something to do with the "ground" level and the elevation map leading to a false collision detection on craft spawn?

I'm starting to wonder that as well. I noticed that all of my craft "spawn" about a meter or so above ground before "dropping" in to place

9when i first focus my vessels, before construction), and that if the launchpad is below this point things explode on spawn. I'll be back with test results as soon as i can get a decent pad to the same spot as my current one with some hydraulics in place.

Upon return, I think we have a winner. Putting the launchpad on a hydraulic hoist to bring it above the invisible "horizon" of where my ships are on first focus puts the construction pad just above the exploding line.

Edited April 25, 2014 by KeithStone

[Josh Hawley]

It is still doing it for me

Things I have tried:

1. Removing all KAS parts from the launchpad before spawn (sometimes they cause weird movement issues when spawning) (exploded)

2. Flying the launch pad up when spawning (this worked, but is really impractical with anything but tiny stuff)

3. Undocking all the other parts of the station (on surface of ike) (exploded)

4. Adding an extra part to be the root (structural girder) so that we don't care when it explodes. the rest of the craft is intact, but fixed in space in its location until reload when it is suddenly in orbit with NaN velocity...

5. Different orientations of the part I am spawning as well as several other parts. (exploded)

6. Adjusted the physics slider in settings to both ends. (both exploded)

7. Removing Kerbal Joint Reinforcement (exploded)

8. Completely recreating the part that I was trying to build in the VAB instead of the SPH. (exploded)

Also, I noticed that whenever it loads my game in, all of the things on the surface of Ike are momentarily 10m above the surface, and then moved down quickly.

At this point I am basically stuck with this save game until I can figure it out...

Edited April 25, 2014 by Josh Hawley

[taniwha]

Some tips about the stats:

• Courage and stupidity are not the only factors: badass kerbals can be much more destructive (or productive) than normal.
  
• Normal kerbals will never have negative productivity if they have no courage.
  
• Badass kerbals will never have negative productivity if their stupidity is less than half.
  
• Normal kerbals range from -1 to 1
  
• Badass kerbals range from -2 to 2
  
• The idea is not that not entirely stupid kerbals can't weld a joint, but that they pull stupid stunts that cause setbacks.
  
• Badass can be both good (smart) and bad (stupid: think Darwin Awards).
  
• Part of the idea was to make astronaut selection have more meaning.
  

That is as things currently stand. Now for some reflections and plans for the future:

• While I very much chose to do this as a game-play element, it was also an experiment to see how people reacted. The results are fairly interesting:
  
  • Some people love it (though maybe with reservations: "this is great, but it could be better").
    
  • Some people hate it (no surprise).
    
  • Some people don't get it (yeah, the info is buried in a release note, and nooooobody reads those).
    
  • Some people have become mass-murderers (turning on permadeath and killing shiploads of kerbals at a time).
    
  • Other people have become more creative (assigning stupid kerbals to where they do less harm).
    

  [*]While the system is working as intended, it has a lot of room for improvement.

  • Three dimensions (one of them binary) is not sufficient. At the very least, experience should be a factor.
    
  • Under good oversight, even the stupidest, bravest badassest kerbal should be productive (usually). Blowing swarf off parts with an air-hose is a pretty easy job (hmm, good fun in orbit).
    

  [*]From recent real-world experience, that EL workshop (big blue thing) is e very fine workshop. Much better than the one in which I work. Rather than trimming it down, I'll probably move it into a more expensive tech node (or really, make it upgradeable from a base of 1 or so).

  [*]Again from recent experience: 5Kh/t is probably not bad as an average (there's no way five kerbals can process a ton of brass fittings in one hour, but I myself have processed a ton of beer in less than an hour (moving from palette to conveyor, not drinking). I'm thinking of making pads have variable rates (based on tech and pad quality).

While the experience and oversight ideas mentioned above may seem to be micro-management, that's far from my goal. At least initially, the most appropriate kerbal(s) will be automatically selected as overseers, and experience will be automatic, smooth (no levels like D&D), and relatively fine-grained (command, flight, construction, etc). I might add some features to enable micro-management, but I certainly don't want to force it.

One nice thing about experience when I get it going is it will give meaning to kerbal deaths.

Now I've gotta get a combination of time and energy to implement all that (along with asteroid mining).