[1.12] Extraplanetary Launchpads v6.99.3

[taniwha]

GokouZWAR: First: yes, negative productivy absolutely is intented: such kerbals slow down other kerbals in various ways (it's up to you to imagine how they do so). That said, with a high enough experience level (stars), engineers* will always have positive productivity. Also, with KerbalStats installed, kerbals can gain sufficient time-based experience to become positively productive. The time-based experience affects the kerbal's productivity before any consideration is given to experience traits/effects/levels (ie, stock experience) meaning that even non-engineers can learn to keep out of the way. Same for having enough stars.

* Actually, kerbals with the ExConstruction experience effect (skill).

KIS issues: goldenpsp has covered that nicely.

Productivity updates: Transferring kerbals (by either going EVA/boarding or via the stock transfer function) causes both the source and destination parts to update their productivities (for EVA: only the one part). If you are using a crew transfer mod (eg, crew manifest), then the mod is failing to tell the game (via GameEvents.onCrewTransferred) that the kerbal was transfered.

If you transfer a kerbal between two parts with the same productivity factor (two workshops, two command pods, two science labs...) then there can be no change in the overall vessel productivity (however, the productivities of the two parts should change: one up, one down).

Docking should update vessel productivity properly as individual part productivity can't be affected, but the workshop network is updated and the vessel productivity is recalculated every frame.

Finally, do make sure you are comparing the right productivities: "Productivity" is for the part you have right-clicked, "Vessel Productivity" is for the whole vessel and is the sum of all the individual "Productivity" values.

And now some tips:

• unless you have a 5-star construction engineer (ie, kerbal with the ExConstruction skill), keep non-engineers out of high productivity factor workshops (EL's blue workshop (5), or the best you have available (science lab is 0.6, hitchhiker can is 0.4, pods 0.25)): they're only taking up space that could be used by an engineer.
  
• inexperienced construction engineers cannot be positively productive in any part with a productivity factor less than 1. However, only 1 star is required to be able to work in any part, or a 4-star construction engineer present in the same part.
  
• any kerbal can be negatively productive in any part, though 3 stars will prevent that (2 for construction engineers in good workshops (productivity factor >= 1)
  
• It takes many stupid kerbals in command pods to undo one good kerbal in a workshop.
  
• Parts with no workshop facility at all will not affect vessel productivity in any way (good place to put stupid kerbals).
  
• Study the graphs provided by Kerbas ad astra. They'll let you estimate the worth of your kerbals.
  
• Stupidity less that 0.5 is guaranteed to give positive productivity, no matter the courage or badass.
  

I hope that helps. I will have to take a look at your stream to make sure funny things aren't going on, but not tonight: I need to get to bed.

[goldenpsp]

I checked over there and it appears they've fixed several things that were annoying but I don't see where they fixed the IVA issue? I guess they're still working on it...I might wait to update once that's fixed.

It is a user fix. I don't think Kospy is planning on an official fix for the issue as it needs a modulemanager config and he seems intent on avoiding the use of MM altogether. But a few pages back a MM config was posted which resolves the issue.

[guitarxe]

Can this be used with the stock resource ore? Or do I still need to mine the EL-ore to produce rocketparts?

[IggyHitokage]

So, I'm not exactly sure what I'm doing wrong here. I absolutely cannot get the orbital (or ground-based) dock to work. When right-clicking, nothing happens and I cannot show UI, nor does the Toolbar mod display EPL. As far as I know, I have correctly installed the mod, since I can see and use all of the parts required.

I have started with a completely fresh install of KSP to rule out any other mod interactions, using the newest versions of KIS, Module Manager and EPL. Once I get the Orbital Dock into orbit, I have plenty of modules with Kerbals, rocket parts, power and a probe core to control it, but it will not allow me to open any construction window.

I'd appreciate any help on what exactly I might be doing wrong.

Edit: Well, derp. Issue was figured out after some sleep. Somehow I managed to download the github .zip instead of the actual linked download. Don't mod when sleepy.

Edited June 3, 2015 by IggyHitokage

[The Destroyer]

Can this be used with the stock resource ore? Or do I still need to mine the EL-ore to produce rocketparts?

Seems you need to mine EL ore, but it is integrated with stock ore values?

BTW, how do I check stupidity of a kerbal? I don't see the two bars like in pre 1.02.

Also, is it intended for in sandbox two lvl 5 kerbals (I believe 1 engineer) in launchpad should go negative production and EXPLODE!?

[taniwha]

The Destroyer: in the current release of EL, the stock experience system has no meaning at all outside of career mode (I'm considering modifying this). However, nothing should be exploding.

As for checking: there's always the astronaut complex.

[wisnoskij]

I am not finding Kethane on CKAN, and I am really confused about what patches I am supposed to apply to the main Kethane download. They include one on the main page, but the last few page lists multiple mini patches (nothing listing if they have been included or not). I really want to go with Karbonite. Does it work just as well? And about the adaptation? So there is no reason to use it anymore with all the most up-to-date versions of everything? Or there are still some reasons to use the Karbonite adaptation?

[The Destroyer]

The Destroyer: in the current release of EL, the stock experience system has no meaning at all outside of career mode (I'm considering modifying this). However, nothing should be exploding.

As for checking: there's always the astronaut complex.

All I see is a single bar, IIRC it's only in the applicants tab where I see both values... it's so confusing. Also, it exploded due to overheating.

[taniwha]

wisnoskij: relying on CKAN for all your mod will cause you to miss out on many good ones, or even disqualify you from support for certain mods. Kethane can be had from the thread.

The Destroyer: weird, nothing should be overheating. Also, I thought the AC still showed courage and stupidity in the mouse-over.

[taniwha]

I have released version 5.1.93 of EL (beta for 5.2.0). Links in the first post.

Changes from 5.1.92:

• Floating point math fixes for teardown, too.
  
• Fix part costs for MetalOre and Metal tanks and any parts that shared cfg files..
  
• Massless resources (ElectricCharge) now "build" at 1Ks/u (20Km for 1200u of EC instead of 150Kh)
  
• Fix stalled resources causing all resources to stall.
  
• Pads do some voodoo to unstow engines and other parts (uncertain if it's necessary for survey builds).
  
• Allow MetalOre on asteroids (bfrobin446 (github name, yell and I'll fix for forum name))
  
• Disable the recycler field when not recycling, possibly speeding up busy scenes when the recycler is not in use, and allowing things to be attached inside the recycler.
  
• Always use skill for productivity. This is for science mode and sandbox games. The experience traits still work properly, just everyone is fully experienced. Now in non-career games, no kerbal has negative productivity (though many will have much smaller than 1). However, pilots and scientists require an engineer in the part to be productive (the engineer tells them what to do). Also, only engineers are guaranteed to be productive.
  

Again, this is a beta version for 5.2.0. There may be bugs in the new features and there is still work to be done on polish (mostly module info for the parts list), and stock depletion zones are not yet supported. However, things do seem to work nicely. Good luck .

I still have a couple of bugs to fix before 5.2.0: launchclamps acting weird, and I think I can fix the twitchy launchpad2 (I've found some colliding colliders in the model).

Edited June 4, 2015 by taniwha

[guitarxe]

I get negative productivity from the blue workshop when I place Kerbals inside. And then if I try to build something on the launchpad, it goes into negative. The required part count keeps going up and up instead of down, and the percentage bar climbs into the negative and never stops (goes to -100% and beyond).

[taniwha]

guitarxe: getting negative productivity is nothing surprising. Negative progress (even -0.0001%) is very surprising. It seems I may have missed a check in the code, I'll take a look.

[Mitchz95]

I just downloaded this and the readme file says I need Kethane for this to work. But the OP says the only required mods are Module Manager and KIS. Which is right?

[rabidninjawombat]

I just downloaded this and the readme file says I need Kethane for this to work. But the OP says the only required mods are Module Manager and KIS. Which is right?

@ mitchz95 - It works fine without Kethane (it will utilized the stock resource system) But if you do use Kethane, it will utilize that

It actually doesn't technically require KIS either, but you wont be able to use the survey stakes without KIS, you would only be able to launch from launchpads or the orbital dock

[taniwha]

guitarxe: Yeah, there's a bug with negative productivity that snuck in with the zero-check fixes.

Mitchz95: I guess I forgot to update the readme. I'll take care of that soon. Still, I think Kethane makes for a nice addition as it gives you regions of 100% concentration (that deplete, of course). Also, Kethane is a little more shipping friendly than Ore.

[taniwha]

I have released version 5.1.94 of EL (beta for 5.2.0). Links in the first post.

Changes from 5.1.93:

• Restore the behavior of negative productivity.
  
• Rewrite README.txt to be more useful.
  

Again, this is a beta version for 5.2.0. There may be bugs in the new features and there is still work to be done on polish (mostly module info for the parts list), and stock depletion zones are not yet supported. However, things do seem to work nicely. Good luck .

I still have a couple of bugs to fix before 5.2.0: launchclamps acting weird, and I think I can fix the twitchy launchpad2 (I've found some colliding colliders in the model).

NOTE: there was a packaging glitch and the old readme got into the zip. I've already fixed this and rebuilt the zip (same version).

Edited June 6, 2015 by taniwha

[guitarxe]

Thanks, taniwha, you're the man! I'll give the new version a shot

[guitarxe]

Yay, it works!

[Tokomak]

Hi.

Which is the last working version that is compatible with 0.90? (I play this version as some of my favourite mods haven't been updated to 1.02). As I tried 5.1.2 and 5.1.1 (which I got from the github site) and even on a stock copy of KSP 0.90 it causes the Stability clamp to begin bugging out. Pretty much identically to this. Is there anything I am missing as I believe I would really enjoy this mod, and would be keen on getting it to function as intended.

Thanks.

[Mitchz95]

So I'm having some trouble with this. I have a tank full of Ore on my ship, but the smelter can't seem to turn it into RocketParts because "MetalOre missing". Are Ore and MetalOre not the same thing? If so, how do I turn the former into the latter?

[taniwha]

Tokomak: you can't get the dll directly from github, you need to build it. Instead, use the url for the current version but edit the version number. 5.1.2 is what you want as it should have the least issues.

Mitchz95: As of KSP 1.0/EL 5.1.90, Ore is not used. You need MetalOre. You cannot convert Ore to MetalOre (that would be like converting coal or tar into hematite).

[GokouZWAR]

guitarxe: Yeah, there's a bug with negative productivity that snuck in with the zero-check fixes.

Its funny, you said his is legit, where I reported it and you said it was working as intended...i knew there was a bug in that.

[...] Also, with KerbalStats installed, kerbals can gain sufficient time-based experience to become positively productive. The time-based experience affects the kerbal's productivity before any consideration is given to experience traits/effects/levels (ie, stock experience) meaning that even non-engineers can learn to keep out of the way. Same for having enough stars.

* Actually, kerbals with the ExConstruction experience effect (skill).

I have kerbal stats version 2.0.0 installed, but i'm not seeing any real "change" to the game with it installed. I don't see any way to check kerbal's stats or see who has what skills. I verified that i have the version released on 5/1/15 7:08pm. Is there something I'm doing wrong with this?

KIS issues: goldenpsp has covered that nicely.

This is on my list to try as well. I was waiting for another fix to make sure they got all my issues in one shot, but after reading some other posts I'm seeing that I might be at a point where I should just go ahead and update it. I did see that someone made a new workshop model, do you think that putting in an IVA is part of that process that would fix some of the issues I have?

Productivity updates: Transferring kerbals (by either going EVA/boarding or via the stock transfer function) causes both the source and destination parts to update their productivities (for EVA: only the one part). If you are using a crew transfer mod (eg, crew manifest), then the mod is failing to tell the game (via GameEvents.onCrewTransferred) that the kerbal was transfered.

I don't have any kind of crew transfer modules installed...that i know of. I don't have crew manifest since you specifically noted this one. Its quite annoying to have to continually cancel a transfer that was complete.

on my stream you can see how this occurs, but basically what I'm doing is connecting two vessels or bases together using KAS with a pipe, then having to annoyingly search the workshop for the 1 pixel that is the crew hatch (its rather hard because it doesn't appear to be bound inside the obvious box on the top, its more off to one corner of the module instead), then I click transfer in the window that pops up and it says "xxxx was transferred to xxx" but it still shows "select the location you want to transfer to". If I try to do it again nothing happens then because the kerbal isn't in that module anymore so i have to click esc to do the next kerbal.

If you transfer a kerbal between two parts with the same productivity factor (two workshops, two command pods, two science labs...) then there can be no change in the overall vessel productivity (however, the productivities of the two parts should change: one up, one down).

Docking should update vessel productivity properly as individual part productivity can't be affected, but the workshop network is updated and the vessel productivity is recalculated every frame.

Finally, do make sure you are comparing the right productivities: "Productivity" is for the part you have right-clicked, "Vessel Productivity" is for the whole vessel and is the sum of all the individual "Productivity" values.

I was aware of this and the vessel productivity with the one and only "stupid" kerbal in it is what i'm referring to. IE there are no other kerbals in the entire vessel. The overall AND the module's productivity are identical and both show negative even when I transferred him out. After playing around with it a bit though I have seen cases where it does actually update correctly so I'm not able to replicate the issue consistently. It may be that the recalculation just hadn't occured when I do it. Reloading the game (going back to space center and back to the vessel) does refresh the calculation, its just very annoying to have to go through all that to fix it. I'll try to dock things together to see if that helps, but its rather hard to dock ground bases together effectively (where I'm having the issue). I will try to get the latest version of the mod since you did some changes in the latest release regarding negative productivity issues.

​My items in red below

And now some tips:

• unless you have a 5-star construction engineer (ie, kerbal with the ExConstruction skill), keep non-engineers out of high productivity factor workshops (EL's blue workshop (5), or the best you have available (science lab is 0.6, hitchhiker can is 0.4, pods 0.25)): they're only taking up space that could be used by an engineer.This is difficult because I don't know how to use kerbalstats apparently. I can't see who has what skills and who is 5 star vs 0 or who has what exactly...any tips on that?
  
• inexperienced construction engineers cannot be positively productive in any part with a productivity factor less than 1. However, only 1 star is required to be able to work in any part, or a 4-star construction engineer present in the same part. Same problem as above
  
• any kerbal can be negatively productive in any part, though 3 stars will prevent that (2 for construction engineers in good workshops (productivity factor >= 1) again, same problem as above...
  
• It takes many stupid kerbals in command pods to undo one good kerbal in a workshop. Yes i was putting a stupid kerbal in a workshop which was why it was going negative, but then again i only had the one in the entire vessel.
  
• Parts with no workshop facility at all will not affect vessel productivity in any way (good place to put stupid kerbals). You mean a seperate vessel or one that is "docked" to the station?
  
• Study the graphs provided by Kerbas ad astra. They'll let you estimate the worth of your kerbals. I did see these, but i'm not seeing any of the expected results, however this may be because this guy is really really stupid and I just don't know it. As far as I thought (being in sandbox mode) all kerbals have 5 stars out of the box...
  
• Stupidity less that 0.5 is guaranteed to give positive productivity, no matter the courage or badass. I guess I can test this if I can get kerbal stats working...
  

I hope that helps. I will have to take a look at your stream to make sure funny things aren't going on, but not tonight: I need to get to bed.

I'm not sure if you ever got around to watching it. If you send me a follow you might be able to catch me live one time. Feel free to jump into my chat channel I can go around and we can discuss the mod a bit. I don't get a lot of viewers or anything so it should be cool to discuss whatever. I'm sure it would make an interesting segment as well. I have a teamspeak server we can even do a voice mode if you'd prefer as well. The stream delay may cause problems with your ability to speak with me real time since you won't see what i'm doing in real time anyway to demonstrate problems.

Thanks for the response! Despite my frustrations, the mod is still my favorite one so far!

[GokouZWAR]

umm...i loaded EPL version 94 but it removed the survey station!? I just lost my entire ground base on minmus...is there another part that is replacing it? I see the survey spikes are still in the game...do the launchpads detect the spikes now?

EDIT: I looked in the mod zip files and I didn't see anything in there that suggested in the /parts folder that it was the survey station...

I went back into the 92 install files i had and I didn't see one there either...??? i'm trying to figure out which mod made it. I updated KIS and KAS today as well as EPL but neither of those seem to have the survey station either in either their old builds or new ones. Am I missing something here? What mod generated the survey station? I feel like an idiot not backing up the folder before updating the mods. I usually do but for some reason this time I didn't. :\

Edited June 7, 2015 by GokouZWAR

[GokouZWAR]

Well i'm not sure how it got removed, but I did a complete fresh install of the entire game, loading all the latest mods back into it and the EL survey station is back. I did a restore of my previous saves (thankfully i had a quicksave that still had the base in it) and reloaded while missing a few hours of work. No great loss really there.

[taniwha]

GokouZWAR: the survey station is a Module Manager clone of the hitchhiker can, so it's rather hard to find in EL's GameData tree. It disappearing would be due to something going wrong with the MM patch.

The progress issue: it wasn't clear to me that you were getting actual negative progress. Also, see below.

It sounds like something is blocking your crew transfers (maybe an exception somewhere, maybe some other mod like Connected Living Spaces (did I get the name right?)).

Unfortunately, I haven't had time to check your stream yet. My comments were a "ok, you have some problems, but I don't know what's working as designed, what's a bug, or what's going on, but here are some things to keep in mind until I can help you properly". Even guitarxe's report had me scratching my head for a little bit.

That said, last night I made the Rocket Builder (that "silly" tower part in command pods) a little less silly. It is no longer a probe core but rather an external command seat... or really four external command seats (went surprisingly well). I've also removed all storage from it (where is the stuff supposed to go?!?), and added a workshop (PF=1) to it. In the process of getting ExWorkshop to work with KerbalSeat, I ran into problems with productivity not updating reliably. Of course, I fixed those issues . Whether they fix your issues is yet to be seen, though. I'll do up another release soon (hopefully tonight my time, currently it's morning).