Stargates (Late game orbital construction)

[Unfawkable]

OK, so I know there are many people who'd like to see other star systems and more sci-fi tech like warp drives and such, and I know there is probably an equal number of people who are against this. Everyone has their reasons, but I personally would love too see this in game some day, if it was implemented in a challenging and hard way. Because tech like this would grant huge benefits, it should be equally hard to gain those benefits. And as I've recently started being interested in orbital construction via docking ports, this came to mind.

Building stargates in space by assembling 4-5 parts of it in orbit around Kerbin (and one at your destination too).

The parts would be huge, hence why they'd have to be built in orbit.

Once 2 stargates are constructed completely, you can bind them only and only once, and this process can't be changed. If one stargate is damaged or destroyed, so is the other one. (or if that's too harsh, the other one goes offline until the previous one is repaired. Still can't be bound to a different stargate though.)

To enter a stargate, you would either have dock with it (it's portal), or just pass right through it. Upon exiting on the other side, the rocket maintains the same Delta/v and direction (which only changes depending on the rotation of the exit portal) as when it entered.

Stargates would require huge amounts of electricity to perform one teleport, and maybe the bigger the rocket that goes through (more parts/mass) the more electricity it would need. If a rocket too big for the amount of electricity the stargate has tries to go through, BOOM, everything blows to kingdom come)

So building one stargate in orbit around Kerbin is hard enough, but if you want the other one, the farther you'd want it to take you, the harder it would be to take the stargate there and assemble it.

Now, I know this sounds like a mod, but I just hate mods that affect gameplay, and I'd like awesome things to be developed, balanced and implemented by the devs themselves. Questions/thoughts/discuss.

For those asking why would one eliminate the core basics of this game which is orbital manuvaring between planets, take a look at this comment:

I don't completely hate the idea of being able to establish a device which would teleport a ship from one orbit to another. If you were able to transfer it from KSP to some distant planet or moon you have proven you can do all necessary transfer burns. It will just allow you to skip doing them over and over again if you want to concentrate on more complex tasks than time warping to the nearest launch window or through the interplanetary transfer.

Not only did you do it multiple times over in order to build the stargate, you also assembled it there. This means you've done this maneuver many times already, and just want to eliminate that tediousness if you want to come to the same place again.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Unfawkable

[Poryy]

Sorry man, but FTL travel and teleportation is on the What not to suggest list.

[Unfawkable]

That's odd, I could have sworn I checked if it was. Rechecking.

Edit: Just checked, FTL is on the list, but there's nothing about teleportation.

[diomedea]

IMHO, the concept is neither related to FTL nor to teleportation.

Both those modes of travel break the laws within the Kerbol system, Keinstein general relativity and so... therefore is clear that those are forbidden. And probably the above would imbalance KSP as a game, and even make it crash if some values go out of bounds.

But stargating is actually a way to move "out" of the Kerbol system; the same would happen if Kermen discovered a stable wormhole close enough to be used. Certainly something related to the existence of other star systems in KSP universe, so to make possible to arrive there. Would be a more interesting way to use those different star systems being developed, than to simply load them in KSP to replace Kerbol data.

[Unfawkable]

IMHO, the concept is neither related to FTL nor to teleportation.

Both those modes of travel break the laws within the Kerbol system, Keinstein general relativity and so... therefore is clear that those are forbidden. And probably the above would imbalance KSP as a game, and even make it crash if some values go out of bounds.

But stargating is actually a way to move "out" of the Kerbol system; the same would happen if Kermen discovered a stable wormhole close enough to be used. Certainly something related to the existence of other star systems in KSP universe, so to make possible to arrive there. Would be a more interesting way to use those different star systems being developed, than to simply load them in KSP to replace Kerbol data.

Well, no one says you can't use this within the same star system, nor that you can't have wormholes inside one. It would be useful when other planets get biomes as well, so it would make studying the same planet much less tedious, and it would give great sense of accomplishment

[diomedea]

Pardon, but having two such structures within the same system is impossible according to the theories by Kerman Hawking. Their energy would simply annihilate them both, as the gravitational fields from two gates active at the same time would be tangled together and oscillate in an uncontrollable way.

On a more mundane level, why should I have fun doing things in KSP without the very reason to play KSP, or to astronavigate realistically within a star system?

But to each his way to like it.

[AngelLestat]

I personal I would hate any magic transportation system in KSP.. These include FTL, Teleportation, wurm holes, etc.

But i would not have any trouble if they choose to add any transportation system that we could have in 50 or 70 years from now.

[skyace65]

stargates wouldn't work. forget the physics, your saying to add it instead of FTL or some kind of wormhole. the whole reason people want that is so that you don't take forever getting to and from differnt star systems. this would just be sending out multiple ships, which would take forever(not even counting time needed to align orbits for docking), just for access to ONE solar system.

[Nuke]

you've not enough minerals

sorry, couldn't resist the not the reference you were looking for reference

[Kasuha]

I don't completely hate the idea of being able to establish a device which would teleport a ship from one orbit to another. If you were able to transfer it from KSP to some distant planet or moon you have proven you can do all necessary transfer burns. It will just allow you to skip doing them over and over again if you want to concentrate on more complex tasks than time warping to the nearest launch window or through the interplanetary transfer.

[Unfawkable]

Pardon, but having two such structures within the same system is impossible according to the theories by Kerman Hawking. Their energy would simply annihilate them both, as the gravitational fields from two gates active at the same time would be tangled together and oscillate in an uncontrollable way.

On a more mundane level, why should I have fun doing things in KSP without the very reason to play KSP, or to astronavigate realistically within a star system?

But to each his way to like it.

stargates wouldn't work. forget the physics, your saying to add it instead of FTL or some kind of wormhole. the whole reason people want that is so that you don't take forever getting to and from differnt star systems. this would just be sending out multiple ships, which would take forever(not even counting time needed to align orbits for docking), just for access to ONE solar system.

Look at Kasuha's comment

I don't completely hate the idea of being able to establish a device which would teleport a ship from one orbit to another. If you were able to transfer it from KSP to some distant planet or moon you have proven you can do all necessary transfer burns. It will just allow you to skip doing them over and over again if you want to concentrate on more complex tasks than time warping to the nearest launch window or through the interplanetary transfer.

This is PRECISELY what I meant, adding your quote to the topic.

I personal I would hate any magic transportation system in KSP.. These include FTL, Teleportation, wurm holes, etc.

But i would not have any trouble if they choose to add any transportation system that we could have in 50 or 70 years from now.

I don't believe anything can be completely proven imposbille. Be it wishful thinking or not, I believe FTL will be possible whether it be 100, 1000 or 100.000 years from now.

you've not enough minerals

sorry, couldn't resist the not the reference you were looking for reference

I'm not sure I'm following

Edited November 30, 2013 by Unfawkable

[AngelLestat]

I don't believe anything can be completely proven imposbille. Be it wishful thinking or not, I believe FTL will be possible whether it be 100, 1000 or 100.000 years from now.

I dint said imposible, but 50 to 70 years into the future is a margin in the technology that we can project our estimations with certain grade of accuracy, beyond that there is much uncertainty.

But it does not matter how much uncertainty, any scientific will be agree that something like a FTL transport cant be achieve it at least for the next 1000 years.

This fact is mainly due to the energy requirements to bend/break space. How to be so sure if we dont know the technology advances? Easy, you just look the problem from the thermodynamics point of view.

And why we need a magic system? there is no need. We can reach 10% to 90% the speed of light using real concepts that works with known physsics.

[Unfawkable]

I dint said imposible, but 50 to 70 years into the future is a margin in the technology that we can project our estimations with certain grade of accuracy, beyond that there is much uncertainty.

But it does not matter how much uncertainty, any scientific will be agree that something like a FTL transport cant be achieve it at least for the next 1000 years.

This fact is mainly due to the energy requirements to bend/break space. How to be so sure if we dont know the technology advances? Easy, you just look the problem from the thermodynamics point of view.

And why we need a magic system? there is no need. We can reach 10% to 90% the speed of light using real concepts that works with known physsics.

I know you did say 70 years, but you also called it "magic" tech, which is why I had to say nothing is impossible. So it's still science, not magic

[Wahgineer]

Funny how you guys condemn FTL as being unrealistic and want to use a (warning: sarcasm) TOTALLY realistic alternative. The thing is, Warp drives and stargates are nothing like each other: stargates are insta teleporters, where as FTL ships take time to get some where. EX: an ftl ship should take about 2 weeks to get to alpha centauri. Also, FTL drives can have nerfs placed on them to balance them out: high power consumption, exotic matter fuel, can only travel in jumps, no control while ship is warping, have to be most of the way out of Kerbols gravity well in order for the ship not to undergo massive unplanned annihilation, original speed is preserved when you exit warp, one drive can only push so much mass at a time, very expensive, etc. That seems a lot more balanced to me than an uber-handwavium-unobtanium stargate.

[Unfawkable]

Funny how you guys condemn FTL as being unrealistic and want to use a (warning: sarcasm) TOTALLY realistic alternative. The thing is, Warp drives and stargates are nothing like each other: stargates are insta teleporters, where as FTL ships take time to get some where. EX: an ftl ship should take about 2 weeks to get to alpha centauri. Also, FTL drives can have nerfs placed on them to balance them out: high power consumption, exotic matter fuel, can only travel in jumps, no control while ship is warping, have to be most of the way out of Kerbols gravity well in order for the ship not to undergo massive unplanned annihilation, original speed is preserved when you exit warp, one drive can only push so much mass at a time, very expensive, etc. That seems a lot more balanced to me than an uber-handwavium-unobtanium stargate.

I'm not excluding warp drives, I'd like those equally. Heck, I'd like Dyson spheres too, but I'm just going around what people frown at.

[Algiark]

Stargates in KSP is like the cars in Age of Empires. It's just out of place. KSP isn't some game where you can Fast Travel after you've discovered a new location. Besides, we've been to the moon many times now, we have proven we can do all necessary transfer burns. Where's our stargate to the moon?

Edited December 7, 2013 by Algiark

[Traches]

Now, I know this sounds like a mod, but I just hate mods that affect gameplay, and I'd like awesome things to be developed, balanced and implemented by the devs themselves.

I don't understand your reasoning here for a few reasons. For one, this idea is so far outside the realm of what the stock game is meant to be (non-sci fi, realistic space exploration) that the only way it will ever enter the game is as a mod. I'm not trying to shut you down, just stating a fact. It's not gonna happen brother.

For two, have you seen the quality of some of the mods out there? FAR, B9, KW Rocketry, Kethane, SCANSat, and a whole bunch of others all show exceptional quality (better than stock in many cases) and add a huge amount to gameplay. If someone makes a mod that does exactly what you are asking, why wouldn't you be willing to install it?

[frizzank]

Thats what mods are for.....

Mass Relay

Near Future Propulsion

[Unfawkable]

Stargates in KSP is like the cars in Age of Empires. It's just out of place. KSP isn't some game where you can Fast Travel after you've discovered a new location. Besides, we've been to the moon many times now, we have proven we can do all necessary transfer burns. Where's our stargate to the moon?

But it would be a deserved ''Fast Travel'' for the troubles you went through of building it, and it would be pretty deep in the tech tree, which is why we don't have it for our moon, in which case by the time we are technologically able to construct a star gate, we would also probably be able to go to the moon for an afternoon walk if we liked.

I don't understand your reasoning here for a few reasons. For one, this idea is so far outside the realm of what the stock game is meant to be (non-sci fi, realistic space exploration) that the only way it will ever enter the game is as a mod. I'm not trying to shut you down, just stating a fact. It's not gonna happen brother.

For two, have you seen the quality of some of the mods out there? FAR, B9, KW Rocketry, Kethane, SCANSat, and a whole bunch of others all show exceptional quality (better than stock in many cases) and add a huge amount to gameplay. If someone makes a mod that does exactly what you are asking, why wouldn't you be willing to install it?

Thats what mods are for.....

Mass Relay

Near Future Propulsion

Ok well... In my defense, there's still not a star gate mod xD

But I'll try the ward drive one I guess.

[jordanjay29]

Stargates in KSP is like the cars in Age of Empires. It's just out of place. KSP isn't some game where you can Fast Travel after you've discovered a new location. Besides, we've been to the moon many times now, we have proven we can do all necessary transfer burns. Where's our stargate to the moon?

Yeeeees, the cars in AOE! I remember those screwing up plenty of my MP games.

[Unfawkable]

Yeeeees, the cars in AOE! I remember those screwing up plenty of my MP games.

But it's a cheat code. Isn't it? I hardly think that counts.

[jordanjay29]

But it's a cheat code. Isn't it? I hardly think that counts.

I think that was the point of the original poster I quoted. That, like the cars in AOE, Stargates are pretty much KSP's cheatcode.

[TimMartland]

Sorry, but warp gates are the stuff of science fiction to us for now, and presumably for the Kerbals too. I prefer KSP to be, well, KSP - using modernish parts and systems to do space stuff. Warpgates would make it just kinda wrong in my opinion. Yeh it's cool and all but it means that once you have set up a warpgate at Kerbin LKO And one near Jool you can just send whatever you want into it and teleport it, taking all the effort out of designing individual ships by warping them. Lets face it, ElectricCharge isn't that hard to come by.

EDIT: Our current understanding of the universe basically says we can't go FTL. Theoretically we could cheat this by moving space time or using a wormhole, but stuff like that is both massivley uncertain (We have no real idea if any of it is ever possible ever, and it probably practically isn't) and impractical - we would need so much energy it would just be rediculous.

Edited December 11, 2013 by TimMartland

[Unfawkable]

I think that was the point of the original poster I quoted. That, like the cars in AOE, Stargates are pretty much KSP's cheatcode.

It's not a cheat code if you actually had to work for it.

Sorry, but warp gates are the stuff of science fiction to us for now, and presumably for the Kerbals too. I prefer KSP to be, well, KSP - using modernish parts and systems to do space stuff. Warpgates would make it just kinda wrong in my opinion. Yeh it's cool and all but it means that once you have set up a warpgate at Kerbin LKO And one near Jool you can just send whatever you want into it and teleport it, taking all the effort out of designing individual ships by warping them. Lets face it, ElectricCharge isn't that hard to come by.

EDIT: Our current understanding of the universe basically says we can't go FTL. Theoretically we could cheat this by moving space time or using a wormhole, but stuff like that is both massivley uncertain (We have no real idea if any of it is ever possible ever, and it probably practically isn't) and impractical - we would need so much energy it would just be rediculous.

Then... Make the electric charge ridiculously big?

Or a limited number of uses perhaps?

I know people feel divided by future tech in KSP, but I really don't see another way in which more solar systems would be possible, and I'd really like to see that too some day. As would many others (notably those who don't already oppose future techs)

[zeel]

Perhaps instead of a instant warp gate, we could have a new part that uses electricity to push/pull other ships (like a tractor beam). Possibly involving magnets.

Now how is this relevant you ask? Because you could use it to build an acceleration gate. Think, a massive orbital station with hundreds of beams/magnets/gravity-projectors focused on a small ship - activate them all at once and you would accelerate the ship to incredible (near light) speeds. Essentially we have a large structure capable of imparting a huge amount of Delta-V onto a small object like a sling shot.

How is this better?

• Well first it's not instant, your ship still has to travel the distance - it's just faster.
  
• Then there is the building part, this isn't actually an acceleration gate! It's a part that could be used (by a skilled builder) to create such a thing. You still need to figure out how to build one to accelerate your ship. Not to mention powering it, and aligning it with the target.
  
• You still deal with trajectories, the flight is still like normal, only faster. This means you need to actually line up the gate and ship to accelerate in the right line or you will miss your target.
  
• You will still need to slow down. Don't forget it's space! There is no way to stop if you don't plan it out. You could Aerobreak, or even build another gate at the other end to slow you down (good luck with that one), or just carry a big rocket. One way or another, you will be going fast, so stopping could be a challenge.
  
• Fun with relativity. Hey Kerbals don't seem to upset with the long years of time warping we put them through, so relativistic travel probably won't bother them too much. And perhaps science done at relativistic speeds would be worth more?
  

Instead of "put this thing in orbit to telleport", we have a system far more like building a rocket in the first place. First you have to plan things out, how much mass is my ship? How much mass can each accelerator move to what velocity? How much power is required? Once you figure that out, you have to build it, put it into orbit, line it up just right, and hope you don't miss - because if you do the little shuttle will not have the Delta-V to stop. Or we could scale down, no reason it couldn't be used to send small ships to other planets, or just to put all your space junk into a higher orbit!