[TechTree] [0.23.5] Ackander's Vertical Tech Tree - Release v1.16 - May 13, 2014

[Ackander]

Ahhh I see. I thought it said that the science mentioned was the science acquired pr test, not pr test of all biomes combined Great work btw

Thanks. I have fun doing this kind of stuff, so I'm glad to hear someone likes it.

Edited December 4, 2013 by Ackander

[Ackander]

can you add scansat compatibility? its like isa-mapsat but more awesome. and its pretty neat.

Indeed I shall.

Here is my list of requested mod support thus far, if anyone would like to add to it, you're more than welcome.

• ScanSat
  
• Ioncross
  
• Hullcam VDS
  
• StretchyTanks
  
• RLA
  
  • Stockalike 0.9.4 - Tiny monopropellent engine
    
  • Power Generation 0.1.1 - Tech tree compatibility
    
  • Electric Engines 0.6.1 - Tech tree compatibility

  [*]Space Shuttle Engines

  [*]Tiberdyne Shuttle System

[123nick]

Indeed I shall.

Here is my list of requested mod support thus far, if anyone would like to add to it, you're more than welcome.

• ScanSat
  
• Ioncross
  
• Hullcam VDS
  
• StretchyTanks
  
• RLA
  
  • Stockalike 0.9.4 - Tiny monopropellent engine
    
  • Power Generation 0.1.1 - Tech tree compatibility
    
  • Electric Engines 0.6.1 - Tech tree compatibility

  [*]Space Shuttle Engines

  [*]Tiberdyne Shuttle System

awesome job! but can you just add Sceppies minipack on that list too? it adds probe sized versions for most parts, like a 0.5m mainsail, or poodle.

[Ackander]

awesome job! but can you just add Sceppies minipack on that list too? it adds probe sized versions for most parts, like a 0.5m mainsail, or poodle.

Yep. No problem.

[JewelShisen]

If you want I would be willing to work with you to get HooliganLabs/Jewelshisen Rockets Inc mods included.

[Ackander]

If you want I would be willing to work with you to get HooliganLabs/Jewelshisen Rockets Inc mods included.

Actually, I had Hooligan Labs on my mental list of mods I wanted to add. I was waiting to see what kind of response I got after the initial release.

I welcome the assistance. I don't have prior experience with the mod personally, so what do you have in mind for tech tree implimentation.

[fronbow]

A disparity for sure. I think I'm doing one thing, but another thing happened it seems. Looks like the tree.cfg I uploaded is Yargnit's tree from another save folder. Correct tree.cfg is uploaded now. I wonder.. if the tree will still work if it's not named tree.cfg. I mean, it's just another .cfg and I don't think the game cares where they are in the file structure, they are all put in one big long list of .cfgs. If this is the case, tree.cfg shall soon be further known as AckandersVerticalTechTree.cfg. At least if you download it from me.

I will see about the TreeEdit requirement today. It might be so, I never tried loading the tree without it, in fact.

In a way, this was intentional.. so you could appreciate the grandure of the adventure that was laid out before you. I can compromise, perhaps, and decrease the costs to get to survivability and maybe include wheels sooner? I guess not everyone can see the fun in trying to only use boosters to get up and then back down to a new biome, and it does take a lot of launches to walk to the water and grasslands to get those sciences..

From the directory structure it looks like the tree has to be called tree.cfg as there is always an empty notree.cfg file in that directory.

I double-checked a few times today and it does appear that you do need either of the Tree*.dll s. (With large trees I've noticed a brief flash between the stock tree and the new tree upon entering the R&D building which makes me wonder whether the game intentionally has its' own tree in code).

What about this: I make it a 'reward' for using mods that make the game more challenging? For instance, if you have Remote Tech 2 you can can get the little antenna much sooner than the other antennas. What I need is a plugin that allows the techtree.cfg to be modified in situ, so mutually exclusive paths may be chosen, like a hard path or a not hard path.. Anyone?

Let me look at the numbers again and run a simulation or two, then I'll see what I come up with.

Initial thoughts are to make getting parachutes require a minimum number of launches, because I know the launch grinding is tedeous and frankly not fun. The fun part is supposed to be the puzzle of what/how to build something to accomplish the mission. We'll see.

I'll get back to you on this soon.

That sounds very interesting! Shout if you need a tester

It'd be nice if the source was available for the Tree* dlls, if only to see how he's intercepting the stock tree.

But I do feel that if we have a pod of some kind then it stands to reason that we should have a parachute of some description - it may be more logical to have a radial parachute before the r&d guys realise they can stick it on the top of the capsule?!!

[Ackander]

From the directory structure it looks like the tree has to be called tree.cfg as there is always an empty notree.cfg file in that directory.

I double-checked a few times today and it does appear that you do need either of the Tree*.dll s. (With large trees I've noticed a brief flash between the stock tree and the new tree upon entering the R&D building which makes me wonder whether the game intentionally has its' own tree in code).

That sounds very interesting! Shout if you need a tester

It'd be nice if the source was available for the Tree* dlls, if only to see how he's intercepting the stock tree.

But I do feel that if we have a pod of some kind then it stands to reason that we should have a parachute of some description - it may be more logical to have a radial parachute before the r&d guys realise they can stick it on the top of the capsule?!!

Your observations match my own. So tree.cfg only, and a requirement of Tree*.dll. I haven't seen or heard from r4mon for a month now, one can only imagine he is very busy in real life. At least we can make our own trees at least.

One thing to remember, in the universe of my TechTree, logic is not discovered until after the start of the space program. You do make a valid point about radial prior to stack parachutes. I'm going to look at that too. Right now, I want to revise the path to RCSs and the Science Discipline in general. I think there is too much in the way of probes, miniature rocketry, and RCS. I might get to 2.0 before too long at this rate..

So at the moment I am:

• Adding more mod support
  
• Possible Survivability revisalationment
  
• Revising Science Discipline
  
• Decreasing cost to reach Miniaturization Discipline and Unmanned Discipline
  

I was:

• Finishing my forum profile picture:

The first Kerpollo Mun Landing. I ruined it with too much sharpness though.. might redo it someday.

[fronbow]

I must say you've captured the Kerbal Mun Landing very well!

logic is not discovered until after the start of the space program

Yes, this seems to be the true Kerbal way (despite it going against everything we think!)

Maybe you need to separate stuff out into its radial dimensions? So, they first discover they can send one person towards space. Then they realise it's a bit lonely so they devise a smaller rocket to send pets into space(!) and then realise they would be better sending two people into space because they keep losing their pets!

(I can see stories of Kerbal history hidden within Tech Trees!)

Feel free to shout if you need a hand

It'd be nice if there was an external way of editing trees as well as in-game...other than hand writing it

[Ackander]

I must say you've captured the Kerbal Mun Landing very well!

Yes, this seems to be the true Kerbal way (despite it going against everything we think!)

Maybe you need to separate stuff out into its radial dimensions? So, they first discover they can send one person towards space. Then they realise it's a bit lonely so they devise a smaller rocket to send pets into space(!) and then realise they would be better sending two people into space because they keep losing their pets!

Going up the tree does unlock parts with larger radii. For rocketry, I used this general sorting rule:

• Engines sorted by thrust, regardless of radius
  
• Basic Rocketry has the smallest solid boosters
  
• Basic Liquid Fuel Rocketry has low thrust liquid engines
  
• General Rocketry has slightly higher thrust engines, with minimal thrust vectoring
  
• Advanced Rocketry give engines with higher thrust vectoring capability
  
• Heavy Rocketry introduces 2.5m engines and tanks
  
• Heavier Rocketry introduces 3.75m engines and tanks
  
• Very Heavy Rocketry allows for larger thrust engines, 1900 kN and higher
  
• Experimental Rocketry introduces 5m engines and tanks and 5m spaceframe parts
  
• Larger pods are introduced along the way
  

(I can see stories of Kerbal history hidden within Tech Trees!)

This is exactly what I set out to do when starting the tree oh so long ago it feels now. I wanted the experience to feel like you where a Kerbal, looking back at the ancient history of space flight. My node description quality, however, leaves much to be desired, mostly because I started cramming more mods into the tree, taking time away from the descriptions.. To quote from the start node:

In the beginning' date=' the Kerbal knew not his destiny which was laid out before him. (Let the grindfest begin)[/quote']

Since writing that, I have made efforts, and continue to make efforts, to reduce the amount of grinddrudgerfesting anyone must do. Except the bit about getting to parachutes. I still think you should see what it was like for the Kerbals to experience successful pre-parachute space flight.. or lack thereof.

Feel free to shout if you need a hand

I would love some node description ideas, ones that go along with the history lesson theme. I only get in a certain mood to come up with those in a 'Kerbal voice' only once in a while. Around the time of full moons strangely.

It'd be nice if there was an external way of editing trees as well as in-game...other than hand writing it

I totally agree. You don't realise how long it takes to load 73 mods, of which 50 have parts, until you get that many. I need to take out some of the non-part mods to save on memory commit size (hovering at 2.9 gigs now). I know.. I'll just take out the textures, don't need textures to do the techtree. Brilliant.

[DancingWind]

Hello,

Is this playable? I get a girder and 2 capsules unlocked at start and thats all. no engines, no tanks, no parashutes...

I have b9, nova, kw, Deadly, DockingStrut, engineer, far, KAS, Interstellar, ProceduralFarings, Kethane, Mechjeb, Protractor, RealChute, Tac LS, Biomass mods (I updatet them all to newest versions as of now)

I create a new a career mode, exit, putin tree cfg and reload save.

Edit: Ok ...looked at tree.cfg ... node0 doesnt have any engines ... so what I walk to north pole collecting samples?

Edited December 5, 2013 by DancingWind

[cy-one]

EDIT2: Oh, and those four dots, are they Callisto, Io, Europa and Ganymede Laythe, Vall, Tylo and a dead pixel? Lucky shot you got there, with them all lined up.

I will SO name my biggest ship/station "Dead Pixel", once I think I build something big enough.

[Xat]

Well tried this mod, but frankly its unplayable.

Spend about 2 hours trying to grind to parachute and just gave up. Running to water took 15 minutes.

Then trying to make rockets that will survive. Well water land insta death, then did some crappy capsule with reinforcements that could survive landing on ground.

Trying to fly anywhere with FAR installed is a pain in the butt. Rockets fly all over the place when you try to steer in lower atmoshpere.

Frankly its not worth the time unless someone want to run around for hours with Jebediah to get enough resources for first parachute so that you can actually fly higher and survive the coming back.

I might give it a try but I will edit some parachute into the starting noode, otherwise its just one big waste of time period.

Nice idea, but remember not everyone is like you not everyone want to run around for 3 hours just to collect samples, rinse repeat dozens of times.

[123nick]

Hello,

Is this playable? I get a girder and 2 capsules unlocked at start and thats all. no engines, no tanks, no parashutes...

I have b9, nova, kw, Deadly, DockingStrut, engineer, far, KAS, Interstellar, ProceduralFarings, Kethane, Mechjeb, Protractor, RealChute, Tac LS, Biomass mods (I updatet them all to newest versions as of now)

I create a new a career mode, exit, putin tree cfg and reload save.

Edit: Ok ...looked at tree.cfg ... node0 doesnt have any engines ... so what I walk to north pole collecting samples?

Precisely. make the day long walk to the northpole taking samples along the way and you will be able to research basic rocketry.

[Ackander]

Hello,

Is this playable? I get a girder and 2 capsules unlocked at start and thats all. no engines, no tanks, no parashutes...

I have b9, nova, kw, Deadly, DockingStrut, engineer, far, KAS, Interstellar, ProceduralFarings, Kethane, Mechjeb, Protractor, RealChute, Tac LS, Biomass mods (I updatet them all to newest versions as of now)

I create a new a career mode, exit, putin tree cfg and reload save.

Edit: Ok ...looked at tree.cfg ... node0 doesnt have any engines ... so what I walk to north pole collecting samples?

It's quite intentional, actually.

You should think of this tech tree as playing KSP in story mode. There was a time when the Kerbals had no rockets. Instead of the usual science grind like the one you might be used to, I'm giving you the means to imagine being a kerbal administratengineer from before there were rockets, gazing up at the Mun and stars and the sun moving across the huge empty sky in abject wonder and belated misery that you don't know what the heck lies up.. above the ground, when suddenly you are hit by inspiration, and a rock because you live underground when the inspiration hit you too, and you start getting ideas and images in your mind of walking among the stars and touching the Mun and some of the faster moving stars, if only there was a means to leave the ground.. the ground that gives you life, but you feel hope when you think of up above, hope for excitement, for adventure, for chaos bound by moments of crystal clear order, so you make a deal with yourself that you will find out what is above and you need help, because you don't have the faintest idea of how to go about getting away from Kerbin, which is why you organize your fellow kerbal and share your wild ideas and dreams of a new and better and exciting future, up on the surface and beyond, perhaps among the Mun and stars, so a whole heap of kerbals rise with you at your back to the surface, the desolate and sparsely vegetated surface and there, yes there by the big outside lake you stand tall and proud as your adventurous group shape and build the land into something new, something better, something fearful like when you are young and you know there's nothing in the lake, but you still worry about something finding you and getting you but no more for you are an adult now and no fear of the unknown will stop you, or your brethren as you build the most magnificent and glorious of structures arrayed in a compound there by the big water so big and vast like the dark sea of stars above in the night sky that you know with all your being you will see and touch and maybe taste like the future glory and victory when you finally get there but first, always first, you must look about you, you and your people, you must figure it out for everyone’s sake, not just your own fulfilment of twisted and weird feelings and dreams, dreams that you have when you sleep and when you stare awake at the sky and oh how you're tired now, tired and ready to begin your journey to somewhere, but first you must sleep, perhaps in one of them metal tents with transparent rock windows that someone found earlier and started reproducing them for everyone to sleep in, because they are only big enough for one kerbal to fit into and sleep in like you are doing right now, snagging your strange new suit on which was likewise just found that keeps you so comfortable and warm feeling until you wake up, dazed and tired still inside the metal tent with windows when you notice something, something odd and new, like the scent of newly discovered flowers that you just normally forget about not too soon afterward, but this time, it is different, for you decide to write down what you're noticing in a report thing so others can read it and learn from it, but for now, you need to get back in your tent because you're still tired, so you write another report thing after you get in about your situation within the tent, after which you try to figure out who you're going to give the reports to because you know someone must see them, they need to see the reports so you and your kind can gain new knowledge and understanding and perhaps someday have the ability to go up, far up, and touch the Mun with your own hands, but first the reports must be made by your kerbal people, and turned in, so you go to the top of that new structure they built and sit and give orders and directions and plan and scheme to be ready for the time when kerbals are ready to leave the ground...... aaaaannnd that’s when you get to grind the science.

By my reckoning, you only need 25 science points to get small SRBs, and another 50 to get liquid fuel capability. In only a couple of flightless launches, you should be able to gather enough science in and around the KSC to really start taking off, as it were. You really do not need parachutes if you have liquid rockets, and probably can skip solid booster only flight because you have some much science after a little while. There are 124.8 159.6 non-flight required science points from surface samples and reports in and around KSC, which includes the three nearest biomes. The journey is a challenge we must all face.. we might as well make it mean something in a meaningful way along the way.

Edited December 6, 2013 by Ackander
forgot to multiply something somewhere

[Ackander]

Well tried this mod, but frankly its unplayable.

Spend about 2 hours trying to grind to parachute and just gave up. Running to water took 15 minutes.

Then trying to make rockets that will survive. Well water land insta death, then did some crappy capsule with reinforcements that could survive landing on ground.

Trying to fly anywhere with FAR installed is a pain in the butt. Rockets fly all over the place when you try to steer in lower atmoshpere.

Frankly its not worth the time unless someone want to run around for hours with Jebediah to get enough resources for first parachute so that you can actually fly higher and survive the coming back.

I might give it a try but I will edit some parachute into the starting noode, otherwise its just one big waste of time period.

Nice idea, but remember not everyone is like you not everyone want to run around for 3 hours just to collect samples, rinse repeat dozens of times.

Why impose such self limiting factors as you have? Who says you can only take one Kerbalnaut every launch? And why walk to the ocean, that is silly. Not to sound demeaning, but if you need a walkthrough, I might as well make getting to parachutes free, like in the stock tree.

As for the costs, I will say that I have already started playing with ideas for making the initial hurdles less unfun in the next revision, because I already realized what you all have shared with me. I can either make it cheaper to get to parachutes, or I can find a way to bypass the initial costs. Also, I haven't decided yet if I will include a stock parachute in the first parachute node, either.

Every amount of input is very helpful, thanks.

My question for everyone now is, is there anyone who likes/wants this kind of initial challange at the start?

What should the costs to get to parachutes be if the structure of the tree remains like it is now?

Is there anything good about my design, or is it screwed just because of the initial conditions?

Please continue to share your thoughts and ideas, I want to hear them.

[123nick]

id say a walkthrough would be a pretty good idea. or maybe less of a walkthrough, more of a hint emitter, that gives you hints that help you get science.

edit: i think you should make parts, and have like a KAS grabbable "basic science pack" and what you would do is grab the science pack, and then go places and do science with the said basic science pack. it would contain like, a small chisel or hammer or shovel or basic kerbal tools for your EVA kerbal to do science with. like you could test if the water is shovelable and other expiriments similar to that.

Edited December 6, 2013 by 123nick
new idea.

[Xat]

Why impose such self limiting factors as you have? Who says you can only take one Kerbalnaut every launch? And why walk to the ocean, that is silly. Not to sound demeaning, but if you need a walkthrough, I might as well make getting to parachutes free, like in the stock tree.

As for the costs, I will say that I have already started playing with ideas for making the initial hurdles less unfun in the next revision, because I already realized what you all have shared with me. I can either make it cheaper to get to parachutes, or I can find a way to bypass the initial costs. Also, I haven't decided yet if I will include a stock parachute in the first parachute node, either.

Every amount of input is very helpful, thanks.

My question for everyone now is, is there anyone who likes/wants this kind of initial challange at the start?

What should the costs to get to parachutes be if the structure of the tree remains like it is now?

Is there anything good about my design, or is it screwed just because of the initial conditions?

Please continue to share your thoughts and ideas, I want to hear them.

Idea and mod is really nice. But after spending few hours. Playing it (about 3-4) I can see its highly personalized.

Starting grind is just to long and hard. If you don't follow one *true* path you won't make it.

For example I myself bought the solid booster then a normal rocket, was trying to do all the stuff to get science, from running to watter to trying to crash land.

Well more or less I did earn some science but still It would require for me to level up the logistic that are pretty much useless, then open up parachutes. So before you get to chutes you need ~200+ science which is just bad. So I modified my config and gave myself a chuute at solid booster node. Grinded the logistic, then bought the chuute node (just for the sake of unlocking it as it would be normally).

Then I went for thermometer thinking I would earn some more science points faster.

Then I got one battery so my rockets wouldn't fly around heedlessly with FAR. Bought the winglets.

And now I was thinking about buying the radio so I could somehow work it out and send the mission to minmus, basically one way ticket for some science points.

But well I still need like 20+/- science, and I did all research I could. All that is probably left for me is north pole. I got all the high/low orbit grassland/dessert/watter sample and eva stuff.

So basically I have no radio antena, basic engine, basic booster, smallest fueltank, and the only way for me to get some science points now is, either flying around like a headless chicken around Kerbin for hours grinding some low amounts of science points. Or make some kind of whacko rocket that will take me to mun/minmus with the basic crap without having even one decoupler.

So well my opinion about the mod. Looks nice, but the beginning is just to hardcore/boring for most people. I'm not an engineer or someone that wants to spend hours running around gathering stuff on kerbin every nock and cranny just so I can fly somewhere.

You can get to orbit rockets with this mod but then its get a litttle bit to grindy.

You should work around the parachute/decoupler/engine+fuel nodes, and also work around the starting science points. This mod may be nice for people to do some chalenges, but I'm sure that most won't like the grind and will just leave it.

Default KSP is easy at begging to easy, but this mod is just to hard, and frankly if you don't follow one true path at beginnig with spreadsheet of nodes you will get stuck.

So yeah IMO it still needs some work, dunno about further trees as they should be easier once you can get out of kerbin SOI but at start its just to hard/boring for most of KSP community, or thats what I think.

[EnDSchultz]

Why impose such self limiting factors as you have? Who says you can only take one Kerbalnaut every launch? And why walk to the ocean, that is silly. Not to sound demeaning, but if you need a walkthrough, I might as well make getting to parachutes free, like in the stock tree.

As for the costs, I will say that I have already started playing with ideas for making the initial hurdles less unfun in the next revision, because I already realized what you all have shared with me. I can either make it cheaper to get to parachutes, or I can find a way to bypass the initial costs. Also, I haven't decided yet if I will include a stock parachute in the first parachute node, either.

Every amount of input is very helpful, thanks.

My question for everyone now is, is there anyone who likes/wants this kind of initial challange at the start?

What should the costs to get to parachutes be if the structure of the tree remains like it is now?

Is there anything good about my design, or is it screwed just because of the initial conditions?

Please continue to share your thoughts and ideas, I want to hear them.

I understand the sort of storytelling element you're trying to go for, but in this case it feels so extreme as to be absurd. There's a difference between a good challenge and arbitrary obstruction. Especially if you're running FAR, truly, walking your Kerbal to the nearby biomes to scrounge up whatever science value you can seems to be the only viable option until you can at least get the liquid rockets.

I spent the better part of an hour trying to build something, ANYTHING with the parts I had (which consisted of the capsule, the structural piece, and the SRB) that could actually transport the capsule somewhere intact, but it just got too frustrating. It seems as though I'd have been better served spending that time sending Jebediah on a pilgrimage to far away lands to collect Science than actually trying to build something. With FAR the flight characteristics are just too unforgiving to build anything survivable.

The initial restrictions need to be softened somehow; concessions need to be made because of the fact Kerbal engineering doesn't work like in reality. A real space program would be able to glean Science from tests and experiments in the lab and come up with some set of core technologies before actually trying to fly anything. They can also learn from their mistakes and gather Science even from a flight that explodes into a fireball. But since we, the players, are limited to fueling our Kerbals' intellects with dirt and water samples, and can only gain Science from flights that -survive- (at least until we get comms tech), trying to get anything done early on with things as they are now just boils down to a painful, arbitrary grind.

I hope I don't seem overly critical. The overall layout of this tree is the most attractive of any I've seen and I'd love to try it out further. Since you seem to understand the big issue I trust you'll iron out the kinks as you see fit.

[Ackander]

id say a walkthrough would be a pretty good idea. or maybe less of a walkthrough, more of a hint emitter, that gives you hints that help you get science.

edit: i think you should make parts, and have like a KAS grabbable "basic science pack" and what you would do is grab the science pack, and then go places and do science with the said basic science pack. it would contain like, a small chisel or hammer or shovel or basic kerbal tools for your EVA kerbal to do science with. like you could test if the water is shovelable and other expiriments similar to that.

Well, here what I did: build a... thing with seven pods, with seven Kerbals in them. This maxed out the report and surface sample science pretty quick for the launch pad and runway. For KSC I put 10 pods together in a line on its side, five facing in each direction. Used that as a rover to get to the ocean and grasslands speedily but with limited range, used action groups to control direction, maxed out the science for those as well. Played around with just the pod, truss, and the boosters and pipes from LLL in basic rocketry for a bit to see if I could make an arrangement whereby it would be possible to just fly with solids... did not find a solution here, however, I did have enough from my pod rover to get liquid engines, which I used like the Grasshopper to get to space and the highlands/mountains. From there I opened the bigger liquid engine and then science etc.

I like your idea about grabbable science experiments a lot, however I am no programmer, just an air and space engineer. KAS would be a great plugin to implement this too, with grabbing and such. It would be interesting for the kerbals to get out, grab their pack from the external experiments locker, and deploy the experiments about the landing site. It could be like the Apollo's ALSEP, with multiple experiments. Something that I think should change is how science is gathered. (Which, if I'm not mistake is something Squad might already have talked about implementing)

Not only should there be individual sampling and experiments, but also there should be experiments that sit there and collect data continuously. The data is transmitted back to Kerbin, or perhaps some suitable nearby facility for processing the data, which is turned into the science currency. Experiments, and other parts, for that matter, can have a life expectancy, so eventually they wear out from the environment or fuel consumption in the case of RTGs and such. Back on Kerbin, there should be limited resources for building new missions in the form of money and building time requirements, and limited capacity to process data, so just because you design a mission that goes out and collects a potential of 1,000 science points, they can't all be cashed in so to speak until the data is processed. The money should be an important part of the game. If you can just fast forward to get data processed into science, your program's funding might falter because of waning public approval if government funded, or revenue in general if a commercial enterprise, and meanwhile, some other governmental or corporate agency is vying for the same contracts and money you are. You could play through the whole transition from government agency, to corporate entity over a long enough time.

This is beginning to sound like a summary for Space Program Tycoon, hm... I would play it.

Idea and mod is really nice. But after spending few hours. Playing it (about 3-4) I can see its highly personalized.

Starting grind is just to long and hard. If you don't follow one *true* path you won't make it.

For example I myself bought the solid booster then a normal rocket, was trying to do all the stuff to get science, from running to watter to trying to crash land.

Well more or less I did earn some science but still It would require for me to level up the logistic that are pretty much useless, then open up parachutes. So before you get to chutes you need ~200+ science which is just bad. So I modified my config and gave myself a chuute at solid booster node. Grinded the logistic, then bought the chuute node (just for the sake of unlocking it as it would be normally).

Then I went for thermometer thinking I would earn some more science points faster.

Then I got one battery so my rockets wouldn't fly around heedlessly with FAR. Bought the winglets.

And now I was thinking about buying the radio so I could somehow work it out and send the mission to minmus, basically one way ticket for some science points.

But well I still need like 20+/- science, and I did all research I could. All that is probably left for me is north pole. I got all the high/low orbit grassland/dessert/watter sample and eva stuff.

So basically I have no radio antena, basic engine, basic booster, smallest fueltank, and the only way for me to get some science points now is, either flying around like a headless chicken around Kerbin for hours grinding some low amounts of science points. Or make some kind of whacko rocket that will take me to mun/minmus with the basic crap without having even one decoupler.

So well my opinion about the mod. Looks nice, but the beginning is just to hardcore/boring for most people. I'm not an engineer or someone that wants to spend hours running around gathering stuff on kerbin every nock and cranny just so I can fly somewhere.

You can get to orbit rockets with this mod but then its get a litttle bit to grindy.

You should work around the parachute/decoupler/engine+fuel nodes, and also work around the starting science points. This mod may be nice for people to do some chalenges, but I'm sure that most won't like the grind and will just leave it.

Default KSP is easy at begging to easy, but this mod is just to hard, and frankly if you don't follow one true path at beginnig with spreadsheet of nodes you will get stuck.

So yeah IMO it still needs some work, dunno about further trees as they should be easier once you can get out of kerbin SOI but at start its just to hard/boring for most of KSP community, or thats what I think.

I understand the sort of storytelling element you're trying to go for, but in this case it feels so extreme as to be absurd. There's a difference between a good challenge and arbitrary obstruction. Especially if you're running FAR, truly, walking your Kerbal to the nearby biomes to scrounge up whatever science value you can seems to be the only viable option until you can at least get the liquid rockets.

I spent the better part of an hour trying to build something, ANYTHING with the parts I had (which consisted of the capsule, the structural piece, and the SRB) that could actually transport the capsule somewhere intact, but it just got too frustrating. It seems as though I'd have been better served spending that time sending Jebediah on a pilgrimage to far away lands to collect Science than actually trying to build something. With FAR the flight characteristics are just too unforgiving to build anything survivable.

The initial restrictions need to be softened somehow; concessions need to be made because of the fact Kerbal engineering doesn't work like in reality. A real space program would be able to glean Science from tests and experiments in the lab and come up with some set of core technologies before actually trying to fly anything. They can also learn from their mistakes and gather Science even from a flight that explodes into a fireball. But since we, the players, are limited to fueling our Kerbals' intellects with dirt and water samples, and can only gain Science from flights that -survive- (at least until we get comms tech), trying to get anything done early on with things as they are now just boils down to a painful, arbitrary grind.

I hope I don't seem overly critical. The overall layout of this tree is the most attractive of any I've seen and I'd love to try it out further. Since you seem to understand the big issue I trust you'll iron out the kinks as you see fit.

I seem a bunch of things… understanding, I understand, is one of them…

This is incredibly helpful, thank you so much. With feedback like this, I can do some kind of job balancing out the sore spots, like the entire beginning for instance, and then the costs. Speaking of costs, you should have seen them when I first started this project. I think total science required for all nodes was 43,000 and something science points, but it was a nice looking tech tree... in the shape of a tree.... and there were only 70 or 80 nodes back then compared to the 140 of now, so they have come down quite a bit, I would say.

One thing I had not considered until a few seconds ago is that the costs per node on the stock tree will buy you more than just one type of part. I need to orchestrate situations where the same amount of science can generally afford you a few different categories of parts too. I do see how the beginning is rather arbitrary, and it was a small struggle for me to decide to go this route. I did not want to make it too easy or too hard or time consuming... it seems I went too far in the latter direction. It should be ok, as long as everyone gives me a chance to fix it.

Some other things I have been thinking about are cross discipline lines, an Aerospaceframe Discipline (space planes), and whether or not solid and liquid motors and rockets should be separated from one another. Adding either or both disciplines will invariably complicate the 'cleanliness' of the tree with more cross-discipline lines making it hard to see what node leads to where. Any thoughts on these?

Yes, sometimes I forget that what I know is all I know and what I do not know I cannot know... that is why I desire to be humbled by your invaluable critisismses.

Anyway, if everyone who has played tested playtested the tree can afford another hour or more after I post an update in the next day or so, I would certainly appreciate your continued involvement and critical analysis skills.

For now, I am planning to:

• Continue/finish sorting requested mod parts
  
• Look at science costs again to find analogous pricing with the stock tree
  
• Overhaul the Science Discipline. Changes made at the end of v1.0 made getting to unmanned, probe size rockets, and RCS much more difficult
  
• Enhance node descriptions to be fun to read?
  
• Bring balance to the force grind
  
• Sleep

Ability will never catch up with the demand for it. - Confucius say

[Ackander]

The tree looks promising... though I find it quite unrealistic game-breaking that I have access to a high tech command pod with all kinds of neat electronics, but not a piece of rag to tie it to the top. I'm sure you have your reasons not to include a parachute, I just find it odd.

Jebediah should've stolen Ms. Kerman's tablecloths and blankets. His brothers would be alive then.

Sorry I missed your comment. By now you probably see what I was going for. I'll be changing some things a bit though.. to make more sense if not more fun. Or more sense to me at least..

[Xat]

Well I cheated my file to check out the whole tree.

About dozen or more of my noodes seem to not to be connected to anything and can be researched instantly such as 4k battery. Its probably related to some mods missing.

As for grind, you have to work it out somehow. Grinding may be fun, but I don't think even kerbals are so whacko/dumb to send a kerbanaut around their globe to pick up samples.

Your example of 7-10 command pods rover thing is what I said, you made the game to be played in *1 style*. I for example made a capsule with SRB and girders everywhere hoping to survive landing. I could crash land on earth, but water instantly killed me. Basically FAR requires rocket to look like rockets, or it will be a flying pancake of doom.

So well you need to work out the starter pack or first node, to contain at least a parachute. Prices also seemed well whacky. For example I've seen that some of first upgrades are 25-50 science for 1 part or two. While later in the tree, for example you could get few engines and fuels for 60-100 points. To much disparity in my opinion. First parts should be cheaper, later parts should be more expensive.

Mechjeb, well I've seen that mechjeb is almost at endgame requiring nice sum of points. I don't think anyone will like this tree if they can't get mechjeb soon. Mechjeb already have some limitations in stock version where you need additional stability upgrades to unlock new functions.

If you really want kerbals to start with no rockets, then at least allow a creation of some simple rover. That would require some crappy wheel and one solar pannel or at least weakest battery in the logic department.

For example when I unlocked second logic node, just to get the Info part (that allow to print info for other users or some other useless things for me) I've felt like someone slapped me in the face. It costed me 50 points just to move in the node.

So first nodes should be cheaper or at least have some stuff that actually matter and allow to progress. For that you have to take into account that most users wont have ALL the recommended mods.

So I would say you have to work it out somehow, that players can with medium difficulty get to minmus/mun even as one way trip and farm some science points to move their research into future projects.

That would probably require some well placed decoupler,even the crappiest solar panel, antena, rover parts so they can drive around mun farming science points. Then after they get enough they can send rescue mission to get jebediah back.

You have to remember that most players only play with Jeb or 3crewed ship at most, flying usually 1 mission at a time. Requiring 7-10 kerbals or few crews, for example sending dozens of mun landing one way ticket missions on all of mun diomes, and then getting them all back safe and sound after getting sience, may not really be well received by some.

To sum it up, tree is well thought more or less, with few blank spots here and there or issues with open trees because of no nodes (based on mods you have), but it still requires to cater to wider audience. KSP is a pretty casual game, best way would be to do 2 configs if you want to have the hardcore and normal version. Hardcore version could have engineers working out some machines of doom, while normal version would have players having a harder grind than vanilla, but not as hard as it is now where it basically becomes a korean mmorpg style farming for every science point up to the last 0.1.

[fronbow]

This is all interesting stuff!

This thread has an interesting windows util that might be of interest to you - KSP Utilities (KSP TreeCreator)

I only bumped into it last night and it looks like a good trade-off to trying to do it in-game if you have a list of the part names - and I've seen something somewhere that will give a list of part names by traversing the addon directory (can't for the life of me remember where, but it'll come back to me I'm sure!).

I will gladly help flesh out the descriptions as it seems like this tree could very well get to be a mammoth task for you alone - have you got a github type place for it? (makes things easier if there's some kind of revision system!!) - which would also help you keep an original and then have new branches when the story changes dramatically!

Oh, and I like your walkthrough of how you accomplished the science side of things - that makes it sound so easy to begin with!!

Having just caught up with this thread I was wondering whether the Kerbals would make a rocket first off or a rocket with wings (I assume they have birds that should give a little hint at how to fly?!)

Keep up the good work matey

[Ackander]

Well I cheated my file to check out the whole tree.

About dozen or more of my noodes seem to not to be connected to anything and can be researched instantly such as 4k battery. Its probably related to some mods missing.

If it's not too late, can you screenshot this please? I'll try to see what's up.

As for grind, you have to work it out somehow. Grinding may be fun, but I don't think even kerbals are so whacko/dumb to send a kerbanaut around their globe to pick up samples.

Your example of 7-10 command pods rover thing is what I said, you made the game to be played in *1 style*. I for example made a capsule with SRB and girders everywhere hoping to survive landing. I could crash land on earth, but water instantly killed me. Basically FAR requires rocket to look like rockets, or it will be a flying pancake of doom.

Flying pancake of doom, nice.

So well you need to work out the starter pack or first node, to contain at least a parachute. Prices also seemed well whacky. For example I've seen that some of first upgrades are 25-50 science for 1 part or two. While later in the tree, for example you could get few engines and fuels for 60-100 points. To much disparity in my opinion. First parts should be cheaper, later parts should be more expensive.

Mechjeb, well I've seen that mechjeb is almost at endgame requiring nice sum of points. I don't think anyone will like this tree if they can't get mechjeb soon. Mechjeb already have some limitations in stock version where you need additional stability upgrades to unlock new functions.

An overall price reduction is eminent. I'm thinking probes should be no probs to get to and start building. No particulars on this yet.

If you really want kerbals to start with no rockets, then at least allow a creation of some simple rover. That would require some crappy wheel and one solar pannel or at least weakest battery in the logic department.

For example when I unlocked second logic node, just to get the Info part (that allow to print info for other users or some other useless things for me) I've felt like someone slapped me in the face. It costed me 50 points just to move in the node.

Particulars on this: Treat the first few nodes as a history simulator as I intended, where if anything, the hardest part for the player will be to read the descriptions. They are not that long, either. So a requirement of one launch, to get the couple of science points to get to what we can all agree on now (at least I think we agree?), should be starting equipment. Making you suffer as the kerbals did during early space flight testing doesn't sound all that fun, now that I think about it.

So first nodes should be cheaper or at least have some stuff that actually matter and allow to progress. For that you have to take into account that most users wont have ALL the recommended mods.

So I would say you have to work it out somehow, that players can with medium difficulty get to minmus/mun even as one way trip and farm some science points to move their research into future projects.

That would probably require some well placed decoupler,even the crappiest solar panel, antena, rover parts so they can drive around mun farming science points. Then after they get enough they can send rescue mission to get jebediah back.

You have to remember that most players only play with Jeb or 3crewed ship at most, flying usually 1 mission at a time. Requiring 7-10 kerbals or few crews, for example sending dozens of mun landing one way ticket missions on all of mun diomes, and then getting them all back safe and sound after getting sience, may not really be well received by some.

To sum it up, tree is well thought more or less, with few blank spots here and there or issues with open trees because of no nodes (based on mods you have), but it still requires to cater to wider audience. KSP is a pretty casual game, best way would be to do 2 configs if you want to have the hardcore and normal version. Hardcore version could have engineers working out some machines of doom, while normal version would have players having a harder grind than vanilla, but not as hard as it is now where it basically becomes a korean mmorpg style farming for every science point up to the last 0.1.

No, what you have described to me here ::points:: it does not sound like a fun time to me. Let me assure you I hear you and am working to address this. This is what happens though when I do not have contact with my potential customers until after product release, as I tended towards making it for myself, hoping I was normal like everyone else who would use it. Hopefully, the next revision when someone says it is too easy will be easier, eh? :wink:

List time.

Planning to:

• use the same list as last time because sleep thought it would be funny to push its way up the ladder, so to speak

[Ackander]

This is all interesting stuff!

This thread has an interesting windows util that might be of interest to you - KSP Utilities (KSP TreeCreator)

I only bumped into it last night and it looks like a good trade-off to trying to do it in-game if you have a list of the part names - and I've seen something somewhere that will give a list of part names by traversing the addon directory (can't for the life of me remember where, but it'll come back to me I'm sure!).

This does look interesting, I will be sure to check it out.

I will gladly help flesh out the descriptions as it seems like this tree could very well get to be a mammoth task for you alone - have you got a github type place for it? (makes things easier if there's some kind of revision system!!) - which would also help you keep an original and then have new branches when the story changes dramatically!

I will look into github for this. In the mean time, I would not hold it against anyone who messages me description ideas.

Oh, and I like your walkthrough of how you accomplished the science side of things - that makes it sound so easy to begin with!!

Having just caught up with this thread I was wondering whether the Kerbals would make a rocket first off or a rocket with wings (I assume they have birds that should give a little hint at how to fly?!)

Keep up the good work matey

Yes, it was a cool story riviting tale, was it not? I tend to type too much, sometimes. Assume nothing, I always say. I would like to imagine the kerbals think birds are disgusting creatures and hate them tremendously. That is until the day... <enter cool story glorious exposition here> ...and that, kids, is why aeroframes are cheaper to develop than rocketry. (almost actually wrote that cool story too, caught myself at the last second) Back to work.