Resources - postponed, cancelled or reserved for a DLC?

[Draft]

And like PDCWolf said, the entire game can't cater to the entire playerbase at once. Some people don't like flying, some people don't do spaceplanes, some people don't even use the science system at all because they play sandbox! A resources system that is integrated properly with the economy of a complete career mode would only enrich the game for those who chose to use it, and if it's not to your taste you don't have to use it.

[SkyRender]

For those who missed bits and pieces, see 12 mins in on this http://www.twitch.tv/ksptv/b/487174346

The gist of it is: resources as planned in 0.19 are indeed shelved. However, shades of that system will still emerge over time (such as being able to replace broken parts, repair things besides wheels, and possibly even jerry-rig new solutions ala Apollo 13). But as for a full-scale mine/refine/return/profit model, that's not going to happen in the process of making KSP scope-complete.

[Seret]

Yes. They do. They're going down the "ITS TO HARD, LETS MAKE IT EASY FOR BILLY" route.

And that's a bad thing why? Would it really be so bad if the stock game was no more complex than it is currently?

If you want to play hard mode, you can always install one of the mods that makes it harder.

[IvanTehFennec]

And that's a bad thing why? Would it really be so bad if the stock game was no more complex than it is currently?

If you want to play hard mode, you can always install one of the mods that makes it harder.

Because once you've played this game long enough, you realize that it's awfully simple, and then there's nothing to do. The fact that they are shunning their long-term userbase for a quick buck makes them EA's half-crippled brother.

[stupid_chris]

And like PDCWolf said, the entire game can't cater to the entire playerbase at once. Some people don't like flying, some people don't do spaceplanes, some people don't even use the science system at all because they play sandbox! A resources system that is integrated properly with the economy of a complete career mode would only enrich the game for those who chose to use it, and if it's not to your taste you don't have to use it.

By that logic we should have all the features cause someone might like them.

Squad spent many months leaving this on the backburner and leaving some time to know what they would do with this resource system. If they came to the conclusion resources are not fit for the game and they would rather include other features in the game, I trust them in their decision. This is exactly while they left the game to be so easily modded: so that everyone can personalize their personal game experience to what they want it to be. So let's roll it over and move on, no point on staying on this forever.

[IvanTehFennec]

By that logic we should have all the features cause someone might like them.

Squad spent many months leaving this on the backburner and leaving some time to know what they would do with this resource system. If they came to the conclusion resources are not fit for the game and they would rather include other features in the game, I trust them in their decision. This is exactly while they left the game to be so easily modded: so that everyone can personalize their personal game experience to what they want it to be. So let's roll it over and move on, no point on staying on this forever.

So now this is being swept under the carpet? Truly EA's brother. Probably has something to do with the fact there are too many "managers and PR".

Edited December 13, 2013 by IvanTehFennec

[OtherDalfite]

Honestly, I think this is one of the last falls for SQUAD now that they have fully surrendered to their community and took the step to do multiplayer without even finishing singleplayer. They've chosen multiplayer only for the fact it's the ULTIMATE way to pull in profit for SQUAD(Something we know every business loves). This is going to be an act of silencing the community from any critcism Update taking too long? "GO PLAY MULTIPLAYER GOSH" is all I see for the future now. I've almost lost all hope in KSP as the past updates since 0.19 have been practically contentless and the sham of "Career mode" we have gotten is a point and click adventure with pre-destined nodes.

Not only this, but the community manager Maxmaps openly made fun of a portion of the KSP community because they got angry that he lied to them repeatedly. At this point, I say it's safe to assume KSP is going to make the transition to a game like minecraft where the devs will take all suggestions from the community instead of making the game that was originally intended. Now it's going to turn into some dreadnaught/minecraft esque space exploration game where you build pretty planes and fly them into space. Remember in 0.18 where resources were supposedly the next big thing and that it would, and I quote "Blow Kethane out of the water!"? SQUAD suddenly changed plans since then to do career mode, almost 5 updates which have been "behind the scenes stuff" ie: Getting sponsorships from Connexion and making more merchandise to sell to the community rather than code the actual game. The last developer I have hope for is C7, and only because I've known him from the beginning and that he makes good stuff.

I wish I could say the same for HarvesteR, but from what I've learned he is the one that has drove KSP into the ground. He gave a clear outline of how KSP was going to be in the beginning, but has since let the community of 10-14 year olds drive his view for it, just like Notch. Ever since the big DLC thing the devs have been completely sheltered from the community, as community managers have been trying to stem the tide of people actually upset about KSP, and banning them from the forums so they can not voice their opinions. One of these people is Mercy, off the top of my head.

This is my last bit of hope crushed for KSP, as now resources are on the backburner (more than likely, permanently), and SQUAD will begin taking more and more suggestions from the community and KSP will no longer be the pinnacle of hope I and many others once thought it was.

[PDCWolf]

By that logic we should have all the features cause someone might like them.

Not really, we are still talking about 2 very specific features with about the same number of metrics (Public acceptance), not about billy's idea of including a dock-able alien mothership that visits once every 100 years.

Squad spent many months leaving this on the backburner and leaving some time to know what they would do with this resource system. If they came to the conclusion resources are not fit for the game and they would rather include other features in the game, I trust them in their decision. This is exactly while they left the game to be so easily modded: so that everyone can personalize their personal game experience to what they want it to be. So let's roll it over and move on, no point on staying on this forever.

If we are going to say everything is fixable with mods, then leave the game as it is (or at least complete the list of half-implemented features first) and call it a day recommending everyone KMP and/or kethane.

Honestly, I think this is one of the last falls for SQUAD now that they have fully surrendered to their community and took the step to do multiplayer without even finishing singleplayer. They've chosen multiplayer only for the fact it's the ULTIMATE way to pull in profit for SQUAD(Something we know every business loves). This is going to be an act of silencing the community from any critcism Update taking too long? "GO PLAY MULTIPLAYER GOSH" is all I see for the future now. I've almost lost all hope in KSP as the past updates since 0.19 have been practically contentless and the sham of "Career mode" we have gotten is a point and click adventure with pre-destined nodes.

Not only this, but the community manager Maxmaps openly made fun of a portion of the KSP community because they got angry that he lied to them repeatedly. At this point, I say it's safe to assume KSP is going to make the transition to a game like minecraft where the devs will take all suggestions from the community instead of making the game that was originally intended. Now it's going to turn into some dreadnaught/minecraft esque space exploration game where you build pretty planes and fly them into space. Remember in 0.18 where resources were supposedly the next big thing and that it would, and I quote "Blow Kethane out of the water!"? SQUAD suddenly changed plans since then to do career mode, almost 5 updates which have been "behind the scenes stuff" ie: Getting sponsorships from Connexion and making more merchandise to sell to the community rather than code the actual game. The last developer I have hope for is C7, and only because I've known him from the beginning and that he makes good stuff.

I wish I could say the same for HarvesteR, but from what I've learned he is the one that has drove KSP into the ground. He gave a clear outline of how KSP was going to be in the beginning, but has since let the community of 10-14 year olds drive his view for it, just like Notch. Ever since the big DLC thing the devs have been completely sheltered from the community, as community managers have been trying to stem the tide of people actually upset about KSP, and banning them from the forums so they can not voice their opinions. One of these people is Mercy, off the top of my head.

This is my last bit of hope crushed for KSP, as now resources are on the backburner (more than likely, permanently), and SQUAD will begin taking more and more suggestions from the community and KSP will no longer be the pinnacle of hope I and many others once thought it was.

this pretty much sums everything up.

Edited December 13, 2013 by PDCWolf

[FEichinger]

So here we are. Resources are, I believe the official phrasing is "postponed indefinitely". Now, we all know what this means: It's not on the plate and at best it's going to be implemented further down the road, most likely not in any way like what has been planned and showcased before.

I'm going to be very frank here: I'm thoroughly disappointed. While we already knew that resources were heavily delayed because implementation details were being changed and the direction was shifting a bit, shoving it out of the way entirely like this ... I mean, a lot of work has been wasted on it now, with the result being almost a complete 180° turn, moving away from one of the most anticipated planned features. In return we get multiplayer - something we were repeatedly told was not feasible in a manner that fits in with the vision for the game and is in fact not planned at all. Well, guess that's another 180° turn right there. I fully understand that multiplayer, too, is a feature a lot of people are looking for, and that they really want to play with their friends, make some larger projects. I get that, it's a nice touch.

I just really don't like this recent shift in direction. Career Mode, as it looks right now, is going to be pretty shallow. With resources not on the horizon anymore, a large chunk of the economy - and of planetary operations - is gone. Science is, once the tech tree is unlocked, just a bunch of flavour text - no game mechanics behind it. Missions/Contracts and perhaps some other systems might well give some more content to play here, but the way this has been started just doesn't look all too promising to me. I'm not a supporter of this whole "realism!" and "serious business space programme!" stuff, I like the whackiness of it all - but I was looking forward to some in-depth meaningful gameplay. That said, I can't see myself playing multiplayer KSP either, to be quite honest. I get what it's trying to do - and there are definitely reasons to do it (Minecraft collaborative efforts have shown us a great deal of magic that can be done like this), but I think this is something that should either have been integrated from the start, or added on after the game itself is finished. Pushing for it now seems very much out of place.

As a closing note, I'm looking forward to the .23 update, but I am very, very sceptical of the future we're headed into. I mean, who's to say we don't get yet another shift in direction in a year or so? It's becoming a gamble, at this rate.

[Draft]

By that logic we should have all the features cause someone might like them.

If you want to put words into my mouth, sure. Features that only appeal to a miniscule part of the playerbase probably aren't worth the effort. Features that would impact the entire playerbase's experience in a controversial way, like putting in mandatory life support without a difficulty slider wouldn't be a good idea. But a feature such as resource collection that a significant portion of the playerbase is interested in, and that would provide no negative gameplay to those who go without? Definitely worth staying on and not 'rolling over', in my opinion

[Alguien]

I honestly can't say i didn't see it coming after a whole year with absolute no info about resources, and if anything, it worries me how career mode is going to be with the whole "no, a new player should be able to finish the game in one go" mentality squad seems to have this last year

[Moach]

i can very much assure you they're not going the way of EA

if it was about "dumbing down" to address the lowest common denominator, the game would have remained a 2.5D how-high-can-you-go casual play challenge (as was the early initial plan) - instead, they went for the simulator/sandbox we got today.

it makes no sense to invest all that much time and effort in a set of features so overwhelmingly complicated (not the same as "complex", which is a good thing) that it would introduce a million bugs squared with every release, and effectively derail development of core aspects which are far more relevant as far as the general scope is concerned.

we all know mining can be very well done by a mod - but it'll only be a good playing experience if the core game it's built on is solid and broadly featured.

the route they're going is best described as "broad", not "shallow" - and they're scrapping a set of features that was far too specialized so they can better focus on things that we all would need to have, mining or no mining, and making sure the thing is open ended enough for whomever isn't yet satisfied to go on the spaceport and get more stuff

and mind you, comparing them to EA (one the most villainous companies to ever disgrace the gaming industry) -- Spore never did allow for modding, probably because it interfered with their evil master-plans of milking petty content packs.

KSP, on the other hand, gives you the Spaceport, which is hosted by Squad and integrated into the main menu. How's that for modding support? It's not easy keeping a project open in that way you know. Modding possibilities must be considered at every turn. Not to discredit the great work put in by modders, but those things they do can only be done because the game was actually built with them in mind.

And this has since become a thing most take for granted - which is Ok, as long as nobody goes throwing around the dirty name of that greedy company in comparison, for some falsely perceived idea of what's going on.

a chill pill would be a very nice thing to have around here, indeed.

relax - go fly something around the Mun. kill some kerbals if you have to...

Edited December 13, 2013 by Moach

[stupid_chris]

So now this is being swept under the carpet? Truly EA's brother. Probably has something to do with the fact there's as many "managers and PR" as there are developers.

And this is what I meant.

Not really, we are still talking about 2 very specific features with about the same number of metrics (Public acceptance), not about billy's idea of including a dock-able alien mothership that visits once every 100 years.

And that doesn't change much to the fact.

If we are going to say everything is fixable with mods, then leave the game as it is (or at least complete the list of half-implemented features first) and call it a day recommending everyone KMP and/or kethane.

Nice strawmen. That was definitely not the point of what I was saying.

[Seret]

Because once you've played this game long enough, you realize that it's awfully simple, and then there's nothing to do.

I dunno, plenty of people around here seem to be managing to keep themselves amused. The game is also not complete, giving us stuff to do is not an idea that will have escaped the devs. However, they've decided that we won't be doing a super-complicated resource system. Personally I'm ok with that. It's a game about crashing badly designed rockets in amusing ways.

The fact that they are shunning their long-term userbase for a quick buck makes them EA's half-crippled brother.

That's a little melodramatic, don't you think?

[Specialist290]

I can't really say I'm exactly personally pleased with the news, myself, but I do think that some people are making this into a rather bigger deal than it really is.

Keep calm and carry on. It isn't the end of the world.

[IvanTehFennec]

the route they're going is best described as "broad", not "shallow" - and they're scrapping a set of features that was far too specialized so they can better focus on things that we all would need to have, mining or no mining, and making sure the thing is open ended enough for whomever isn't yet satisfied to go on the spaceport and get more stuff

I'd be fine with it if the "broad" cut wasn't a millimeter deep. They've got half-assed, half-implemented features, and as FEichnger put it, "a bunch of flavour text" doesn't make a feature worthwhile.

[hoojiwana]

It's a game about crashing badly designed rockets in amusing ways.

No it isn't, just because a proportion of the playerbase cannot play the game does not change what the game is supposed to be.

From the KSP website:

KSP is a game where the players create and manage their own space program. Build spacecraft, fly them, and try to help the Kerbals to fulfill their ultimate mission of conquering space.

[czokletmuss]

This thread is slowly getting too agressive. I advise everyone to take a deep breath - it's not the end of the world and Squad is not EA or something. Let's just continue discussion in a civilized manner, shal we?

Moach, maybe you could ask HarveteR to answer the question about resources on this thread? I appreciate you posting here but it would be really good to finally hear something from the Squad itself, not the mods.

[IvanTehFennec]

And this is what I meant.

Nice strawmen. That was definitely not the point of what I was saying.

Learn what you're even talking about before speaking. You're the one who brought up a strawman in the first place.

[sjwt]

Because once you've played this game long enough, you realize that it's awfully simple, and then there's nothing to do. The fact that they are shunning their long-term userbase for a quick buck makes them EA's half-crippled brother.

My sympathy go out to you as a fellow KSP player, I have been playing KSP now for over 2 1/2 years and still haven't run out of things to do, plans to make.. The limitation on what can be done and how much fun you have with KSP is basically self imposed.

[PDCWolf]

i can very much assure you they're not

if it was about "dumbing down" to address the lowest common denominator, the game would have remained a 2.5D how-high-can-you-go casual play challenge (as was the early initial plan) - instead, they went for the simulator/sandbox we got today.

Nay. Harvester's original view was some kind of orbiter tutorial game, where players could play before getting into a full blown space simulator as orbiter is. Please avoid talking if you have no idea of what are you talking about.

it makes no sense to invest all that much time and effort in a set of features so overwhelmingly complicated (not the same as "complex", which is a good thing) that it would introduce a million bugs squared with every release, and effectively derail development of core aspects which are far more relevant as far as the general scope is concerned.

You are forgetting career was the endgame thing, and somehow got to the public first. Core features my back, they turned the entire roadmap upside down by placing career in front of resources, and now placing multiplayer in there too, which wasn't even planned.

the route they're going is best described as "broad", not "shallow" - and they're scrapping a set of features that was far too specialized so they can better focus on things that we all would need to have, mining or no mining, and making sure the thing is open ended enough for whomever isn't yet satisfied to go on the spaceport and get more stuff

Not broad, the game is getting singlehandedly dumbed down, which is shallow.

And again, if it's about something being doable with mods, then go and grab KMP.

and mind you, comparing them to EA (one the most villainous companies to ever disgrace the gaming industry) -- Spore never did allow for modding, probably because it interfered with their evil master-plans of milking petty content packs.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Spore was shown as something magnificent, a great concept WHICH THEN GOT DUMBED DOWN when EA took it. Modding was supposed to be a thing before EA.

a chill pill would be a very nice thing to have around here, indeed.

Red pill would do too.

[OtherDalfite]

That's a little melodramatic, don't you think?

This isn't the first time it's been done. They did this same exact thing for career mode. It is all a design enstilled to ensure SQUAD receives a constant income, and as more buy their game and less do, they have to take further bounds to continue their profits. When SQUAD made KSP, they struck a replenishing goldmine. They made the mistake of taking that gold mine, using dynamite to get the gold as fast as possible, and now there is little left. One final push, and KSP won't seem like anything is left, since resources are now permanently postponed, like many other features in KSP. Everything else is "too hard" for the community.

[OtherDalfite]

My sympathy go out to you as a fellow KSP player, I have been playing KSP now for over 2 1/2 years and still haven't run out of things to do, plans to make.. The limitation on what can be done and how much fun you have with KSP is basically self imposed.

Not everybody enjoys flying the same SSTO or making the same Kethane base. Some people get bored with repetitively pedaled things.

[Moach]

I'd be fine with it if the "broad" cut wasn't a millimeter deep. They've got half-assed, half-implemented features, and as FEichnger put it, "a bunch of flavour text" doesn't make a feature worthwhile.

you're entitled to your opinion, you know - but i will say you have a rather misgiven perception of their intentions. You have seen nothing of what they have planned for career mode. it's not gonna be a millimeter deep when it's done. and so far, it is barely started.

there was no career mode before .22 - do you really mean to be come across as complaining about not getting a massively complicated system that is miles off from the central premise right about a month afterwards? it's sound like you are at the moment, unfortunately

relax - we're all friends here. This is not the Spore boards.

[Alguien]

it's not the end of the world and Squad is not EA or something.

This is not the impresion i am getting since they announced DLC and the shift of the game went from "semi realistic space game with a sense of humor" to "spore but with physics too complicated for the new target audience of 8 years olds" and specially now than multiplayer is actually planned, i honestly dont see how squad is not making the same mistakes as EA