How do we make resources work?

[tntristan12]

Okay, so before you guys turn the flamethrowers onto me, hear me out. KerbalKon has come and gone, and with it the announcements that set the KSP forums ablaze. I have absolutely no desire to reignite the flames and cause people to start arguing again, so if you're here to shout about why resource gathering does or does not deserve to be in the game please turn your attention elsewhere. For anybody who wants to throw the "do not suggest" list in my face, let me make abundantly clear that this is not a suggestion to add resources into the game. What I am hoping to do here is to bring the community together, to see if we as a group can hammer out some of the issues plaguing resource gathering as it has been discussed so far. I want this to be a constructive space, so again if you're just going to start conflict about whether or not resource mining is good or bad, please go elsewhere.

Okay... Now that that lengthy disclaimer is out of the way let's talk some shop. Feel free to expand on what I have to say, and provide constructive input as necessary. I am one man and probably will not be able to hit every talking point that I intend to, so back me up. Anyway, I think we can all agree that the main reason resource mining has been tabled for now is because, to date, the devs do not feel they have been able to shape the mechanic in a way that is organic and fun. To me, I think the real problem is that in order for the mechanic to feel worthwhile it must be integrated well with existing mechanics and should not exist to serve itself (i.e. mining things for the sake of mining things). That said, if the mechanic becomes a rube-goldberg-esque network of relations with multiple pieces of equipment required to work to accomplish simple tasks... Well that's no good either!

I was brainstorming ways in which resource mining could be implemented with some others in the [Official] KerbalKon Announcements thread in General Discussion, and with input with Regex came up with my own example / vision for how I would implement resources, if I were given the opportunity. This is not to say that my vision is perfect, and I honestly never attempted to make it perfect, but it does address some key flaws with the way in which it was outlined initially.

You pretty much start with Dirt/Regolith/Topsoil which you get directly from the drill. You have a second unit which breaks it down into constituent parts - Water, Liquid Fuel, and more Dirt/Regolith/Topsoil, in differing ratios depending on where you're mining it from. For example, if you're mining on an ice cap you get a higher ratio of Water to other stuff. If you're mining on Eve, you get a higher ratio of Liquid Fuel. If you're mining on the Munar Equator, you get a higher ratio of Dirt/Regolith/Topsoil. And hey, you know what? We don't really even need two separate units for this do we? So let's just get rid of the separator as its own unit and couple it with the drill, so instead of getting out soil from the ground it automatically splits it into these three things that you get in different ratios no matter where you are in the solar system!

Okay, so after that you then have a second unit which can use electricity to compress/convert the base resource into other more useful resources. So for this example, you could put in Water, and for a certain amount of electricity get out Oxygen. Put in twice that amount of electricity and you get out Oxidizer. You use that *same unit* and pump in Liquid Fuel and you can similarly get out Monoprop or EVA prop, again depending on how much precious electricity you want to part with. What about Dirt? Well, it could be used as ballast, brought home for science, or simply dumped overboard because it's not as useful.

Two units: Drill/Separator, and Converter. Each one takes a certain amount of electricity. Besides the two units needed for the actual mining, you'd only really need to add a third part for storage, and let's say it's just one unit that can contain certain amounts of all three mineable resources. Also, notice that the "resource map" I described only has three branches: Water -> Oxygen -> Oxidizer, Liquid Fuel -> Monopropellent -> EVA Propellent, and Dirt, which doesn't really do much of anything except possibly net you science points and allow you to fulfill contracts back home possibly. That hardly seems like a "terrible spaghetti mess of resources" to me. In fact, it pretty much runs off the same principal as Kethane, but instead of discrete deposits that you need to locate you are using the built-in biome structure that already exists in the game. As long as you're able to run mining and converting out of focus, this would be a pretty streamlined way of doing things.

Really, I just came up with this on the spot. I'm sure it's not a perfect scheme, but if I can come up with this within five minutes of brainstorming I'm sure I could fill any loopholes if I had the combined resources of Squad at my disposal. Don't you think?

I came up with a resource map for this description, in which I strategically added a few things to highlight the possibilities this could create.

I agree. What I'm trying to do is help come up with something that might be appealing to the devs or modmakers as a potential solution. Something that isn't perfect, but might be developed into something that works. Isn't that the least that we as a community can do?

As for the solution I outlined in my last post, I came up with a graph of what I had in mind because I honestly have nothing better to do. I feel like something like this would contribute to gameplay without becoming the sole purpose of it, because everything you get out of it could help you in your overall mission, but isn't just the sole reason for being. What do you think?

This would tie in nicely with the "gather surface sample" mechanic introduced in 0.22, since you could use your surface samples to predetermine what kind of breakdown you'd get when you come back later to mine it.

One of the problems I feel this would remedy is actually one of the most common complaints with the current implementation in the Kethane mod: the sheer amount of waiting you need to do while your satellites scan a body for resource deposits. Because my example method returns a ratio of resources based on the biome type, you can mine anywhere you want. Your level of success is determined by which type of biome you're mining in. For example, if you want fuel you should probably be mining somewhere on Eve with a fuel rich lithosphere; if you want water an ice cap would be your best bet.

Furthermore, the equipment you need does not have to be exclusively separate. For example, a single prob-sized part might combine the drill, separator, and converter into one unit so that you can produce a very limited amount of a single resource in preparation for the expansion of infrastructure. For example, if you're about to bring a base to Duna, perhaps you will want a tank of Oxygen there already waiting for you to get started.

Other limits could perhaps be placed on the durability of the parts you are using. For example, as your unit drills down, the friction and motor all generate a heat load on your part. Currently you never have to worry about overheating unless you're launching a ship with mainsails attached directly to orange tanks, or flying 2 inches away from the Sun. Heat load could then be removed (somehow) through EVA, or by constructing heat radiators to remove excess heat. Now, heat radiators don't need to be their own part necessarily. AFAIK KSP already has a basic conduction model, so adding some large, flat surfaces might do. Of course, there is probably still a market for a stock heat radiator part. Especially once they start developing environmental mechanics for the game.

This implementation would open the door to other interesting mechanics, without simply existing for the sake of existing. For example, there's no reason your rocket can't start out with enough life support "stuff" for a return trip to Duna for example... But if you want to build a permanent base there, you're going to have to either set up resupply missions from Kerbin, or get out your mining equipment and start digging! In this way, mining is a requirement for complex or long-term stays on other worlds, but do not penalize the player who simply wants to go visit, take a few pictures, then come back again.

Obviously I'm expecting other ideas to come out. I'd also like to see improvements made to my own. That's kind of the point of this discussion! I want to see where the community can take this concept, and perhaps if we get it far enough the devs will reconsider tabling it. At the very least, maybe we can make this an attractive proposition for a mod developer to start working on, and turn it into a useful alternative to Kethane.

I digress now, so please post your thoughts, opinions, and concerns. Do try to be constructive though! That's all I ask.

-----------------------

Sorry for the double posting, but I had some new content to add in light of some feedback I've gotten on this matter. Someone reminded me that a feature like this shouldn't be essential to gameplay. Well, I disagree somewhat (but not completely); there are some features you just can't avoid. AFAIK nobody has announced the cancellation of re-entry heat, yet once that's implemented having a heat shield attached to your craft will be as essential as parachutes, or thrusters. I do, however, think the best that anybody can do is limit the extent to which a feature is necessary. So, I'll expound: In the example I outlined above, I primarily linked resource mining with refueling and life support. Refueling anything has never been an essential feature in any context, so I'll focus on life support. Now, there are a couple proposals I would make to limit how required life support infrastructure is.

First and foremost, I think that when a craft launches, there could be a certain amount of life support "stuff" loaded on board. Just like how you can choose the number of crew at launch, you can select how much life support you want. Let's say you're just running a short mission to orbit and back. You don't need a whole lot of life support "stuff." If you're running an interplanetary operation, you'd need a lot more of it. Now let's say the amount of life support "stuff" you start off with has to be bought and paid for - that provides an incentive to use as little of it as possible at the get go. Therefore, if you can mine more life support "stuff" when you get there, you can do that at a lower cost than it'd take to simply pack a larger amount on your ship at the get-go! I'll take it a step further and say that in sandbox mode, let there be an option for unlimited life support, so you don't even have to worry about it at all! That way if you're in sandbox mode you can choose to run a mission where you need to manage life support.

Secondly, limiting the consequences of running out of life support. We all know KSP is a pretty family friendly game, and so watching kerbals starve or asphyxiate to death might have somewhat of a... well, traumatizing effect on the younger audience. So instead of killing them when life support runs out, what if they just passed out? Kerbals are resilient creatures! You can think of it as going into hybernation if you'd like. That way, you can always run a rescue mission to come pick them up, deliver some oxygen, water, and snacks, and have them perk right up good as new! In this way, life support becomes very similar to electricity: Just as you need electricity to run unmanned resources, so do you need life support to run the manned ones. Players don't generally have a problem attaching more solar panels and batteries to their ships if they need to, so the same logic should apply to the things you need to keep your crew up and running.

In this way, mining as I have defined it above is completely optional but still provides its own benefits and incentives. Fairly elegant, yes?

Edited January 24, 2014 by vexx32
Posts merge. Please just Edit posts instead of double posting.

[makinyashikino]

I think that graph is brilliant! I really like your ideas.

[impwarhamer]

I very much like this idea, and i hope squad/a mod developer takes this on.

I'l try and think of anything i can add to this.

[Guest Brody_Peffley]

this is on the not to suggest list right?

[impwarhamer]

im not sure about being able to pull liquid fuel strait from tthe ground.

It might be better to have 'minerals' instead of fuel which is compined with water to make liquid fuel, or combined with dirt to make buildings/rocket parts of some sort.

mind you that may be to complex, and i guess taking fuel strait from the ground does sound very kerbal.

[pigletx2]

I think something a little bit more complex will be required. Having a scanning system like Kethane is a must, but you should be able to find oil-like stuff/water on the ground with some tools that decent miniscule amounts of the oil-like stuff/water on that planet in the ground. By moving and getting readings (hand tools? drill part?) the readings go up or down, indicating which way you need to go.(Of course, landing on an icecap is the only way you will get any readings for water.) Planets should have their own dirt types, which need to be refined (unless Kerbin dirt) to be used.

[Deathsoul097]

This would give a much needed purpose (other than science) to orbital and landing probes. Say you send a scanner to duna, and it is indicated that a certain area has resources. You would have a general idea as to what was in the area, but you would have to send a surface sampler to be sure, and even better, a rover. The rover could explore around the area and determine where the highest concentration certain resources were. You could even gain a small amount of science by analysing and re-analysing the samples in the area. Eventually, after your sapce program could earn enough PR, you could send manned missions to the site, and through the tech tree unlock and upgrade technologies to harvest the resources.

[Patupi]

I don't think a scanning system as Kethane implements it 'is a must', but some sort of estimation of resource needs for off-world resources should work.

eg: Given the system tntristan12 is suggesting, a direct sample with probes would do. The resources available would be different based on Biome, plus that that could be extracted from air (if any) on a body. IE, if you wanted to know what the mining prospects in Duna lowland soil was, send a probe to sample the lowlands. If you wanted to know what you could extract from Jool's atmosphere, send a flyby probe through the outer atmosphere to sample it. This ties in with the current science system fairly well and could be displayed at the top of each biome list in the 'Wernher' page in the research lab.

I second the thought that scale of components should vary considerably. Small probe units that encorporate drill and convertor, but only can extract one element (and presumably are less efficent and slower that larger units) would work well as an early (or mid) game imprementation. Later in the tech tree more efficient but larger systems become available that are more similar to what we've seen in Kethane. A multi output convertor, individual mining units (or at least separate mining/air extractor/liquid filtration systems) and some sensor systems (or the system of sampling I mentioned above) would work quite well.

There is however another element you might want to add to your list. Metal. Yes, this is for any possible use of off world manufacturing but also might interface with SQUAD's proposed repair functionality. What if it wasn't merely duplicating the existing 'repair wheels' function, but could repair damaged components if materials were available? Connecting a craft via a docking port that contained the neccessary material then getting a Kerbal out to perform repairs could be quite useful, as long as the part needing repairing hasn't been entirely knocked off.

And this brings me to another possibility. Probably way outside the scope of this thread but I think I'll at least put it down here. KAS can already attach certain parts out 'in the field'. What if this was more generic? Carry parts out to a damaged ship and replace them, or even 'make' certain smaller parts and have a Kerbal attach them similar to KAS. This leads to something that at first when I heard it (wasn't my idea originally!) I wasn't too keen on, but have since started to be interested in. Building complete vessels via a KAS-like system. Basically have some component or other that you can click that enables a VAB like interface off world. You could order components to be built at a location, just like in the VAB, but they'd be 'ghosted'. Then deploy Kerbals to build them remotely. A Kerbal would automatically pick up a part and attach it at a spot, perhaps taking time to weld it into place, then move onto the next component. I think any such construction should take time to complete, just as I think the current science system should ideally take a lot longer to do than it does at present. (or at least have some components that take a lot longer to do long term science as well as simple 'temp gauges' etc) This of course has problems when the ship being built is not in physics range. However it is at least possible as a system.

This manufacturing/repair mechanism would need some kind of resource system to back it up and allowing for something similar, or just for EL or whatever equivalent SQUAD might come up with would be something to consider, especially if it is simplified to just one material. I don't thing 'soil' would cover building ships

Edited January 6, 2014 by Patupi

[Vladthemad]

With Kethane, everything is already there. All the hard work is completed, and I think that's why people lean on it. Why reinvent the wheel? That being said, there are three life support systems out there that I'm aware of...so when someone comes around and thinks they can do resource gathering better, Kethane will have competition.

There's also a mod that adds propeller engines...not firespitters, but a different one. They require maintaining, and come with an oil tank and maint. facilities. I think it's by IDiCEr1? At least that's what the folder is named. From what I've read about it (haven't played with it yet) using the engines adds wear and tear and you need to maintain them. Might be worth a look if someone wanted to add that functionality to more items in KSP.

As far as building ships on site KAS style, can't you do that already? I'm pretty sure any part can be added to KAS as attachable, transportable in KAS containers, and carryable by a Kerbal. That functionality was added in case you wanted to add the small bits from other mods into the KAS system for Kerbals to manipulate. There's no limitation on size that I'm aware of so you could add anything you wanted, athough Jeb walking around with a Mainsail on his back will stretch your disbelief, even if he's on Minimus! So if you added all the stock parts to the configs, you would actually be able to use parts from say...a crashed rocket, to rebuild something to get home in. Which honestly wouldn't be a bad way to go if you'd like a really hardcore feel and can overlook the fact that Jeb has a rockomax tank strapped to his back or the fact that you had half a dozen Mainsail engines in a little container. The biggest hurdle would be to add all the required information to the config files for KAS! I'm just not up to it this week...

Edited January 23, 2014 by Vladthemad

[Patupi]

With Kethane, everything is already there. All the hard work is completed, and I think that's why people lean on it. Why reinvent the wheel? That being said, there are three life support systems out there that I'm aware of...so when someone comes around and thinks they can do resource gathering better, Kethane will have competition.

True, but sometimes Kethane does it too well. It's an all encompassing resource at present, one in, many out. Having multiple resources gathered such as the way KSPI does it seems more realistic to me, although honestly I'd prefer something half way between. Something more similar to Kethane in style, but with multiple resources mined. I know this is where Kethane might already be heading. Me I'm impatient I'd like something like that now, mining air, oceans, and land for resources. Right now that's doable with two, or maybe three mods, or KSPI has sort of all three now, though a little unfinished. On land I personally would like small amounts of resources to be available anywhere, though able to be mined very slowly, but 'hotspots' only on certain biomes/planets/moons. That way, in a pinch, you could set up one base and if you were willing to wait a Loooong time you could have just that one base do anything. However for any efficiency you'd need to spread out your mining operations.

There's also a mod that adds propeller engines...not firespitters, but a different one. They require maintaining, and come with an oil tank and maint. facilities. I think it's by IDiCEr1? At least that's what the folder is named. From what I've read about it (haven't played with it yet) using the engines adds wear and tear and you need to maintain them. Might be worth a look if someone wanted to add that functionality to more items in KSP.

Hmm, only seen firespitter for props. Have to search for that later. It'd be interesting to look at just for the props, and that maintenance ability sounds interesting.

As far as building ships on site KAS style, can't you do that already? I'm pretty sure any part can be added to KAS as attachable, transportable in KAS containers, and carryable by a Kerbal. That functionality was added in case you wanted to add the small bits from other mods into the KAS system for Kerbals to manipulate. There's no limitation on size that I'm aware of so you could add anything you wanted, athough Jeb walking around with a Mainsail on his back will stretch your disbelief, even if he's on Minimus! So if you added all the stock parts to the configs, you would actually be able to use parts from say...a crashed rocket, to rebuild something to get home in. Which honestly wouldn't be a bad way to go if you'd like a really hardcore feel and can overlook the fact that Jeb has a rockomax tank strapped to his back or the fact that you had half a dozen Mainsail engines in a little container. The biggest hurdle would be to add all the required information to the config files for KAS! I'm just not up to it this week...

Yes, but even with KAS 'construction' you're severely limited. Try doing any radial symmetry by mounting stuff by hand! Plus you'd need some of the helpers from the VAB for some systems, ie the centers of mass, thrust, and lift. Having a 'constructor unit' make the individual parts, shove them in KAS containers for shipping, or just bolting them on a ship temporarily for transport, then shipping them to an assembly site, then having a Kerbal assemble them via KAS would work (after editing it so any item can be attached via KAS). You don't even have to worry too much about the absurdity of a Kerbal strapping huge things to his back. You can right click on an object that is attached and find an 'attach button', enabling moving the object from point A to point B (if they're close enough) without strapping it on. I still think that if KAS style assembly is done it needs to be refined a bit, probably with some central control part to act as if it were the VAB to give you those extra controls/helpers.

[Seshins]

I like where your going with this.

[boomerdog2000]

I don't think resources being consistent throughout a biome sounds very fun. What if you had a few different scanners that could look for different types of materials, but they had a fairly large range of what the mineral/resource actually is.

Something like this:

You put up a scanning satellite with the required components. It shows a hexagonal grid like Kethanes because that's awesome.

It tells you that there is some kind of liquid resource in a few deposits on the surface but you don't know what they are until you land and check them with a probe.

Maybe a few more common resources can be found throughout the biomes, like the Interstellar Mods aluminum oxide rocket that can be refueled anywhere on the Mun.

[NWM]

What do you do with produced fule on Duna, even if it can't be filt in rockets-airplanes even in Kerbin. And Kerbal lives years floating in the space in a simple EVA-suit.

1. Kethan is a kind of cheat overall - gas station everyvhere.

2. The illustrated graph is a sham! Even the crude oil needs great refinement before use! And there is no crude oil - as there was no organic life to be fossilated in fifeless planets!

for example:

water+ energy -> hidrogen(<gas>fuel! for LH+O2 rockets) + oxygen(<gas>fuel, life support)

carbonic dioxide+ energy -> carbon + oxygen

carbon+oxygen+ energy -> liquid fuel!

and so on....

as you see all of them need energy and even more energy!

you can build a fuel factory, or a continous self-supporting base but it must need great effort and investment - and not something "gas station everywhere"

Edited January 25, 2014 by vexx32
Please avoid profanity.

[crazyewok]

I say just add, if people think they are too grindy? Fine they dont have to mine them and they can do something else. The rest of us can mine to our hearts content.

[Capt Snuggler]

well water can be separated in to oxygen and hydrogen and then recombined to generate thrust. but put that to one side for a moment.

basically fuel should come as a liquid, solid or a gas depending on environment, it shouldn't be a liquid on every planet. you need the right attachment to collect it. you know, the 3 states of matter and all that.

rather than just magically "scanning" everywhere you should have to combine data from experiments/censors to identify where the resource is. surface sample + temperature + pressure = resource material state and then location.

the goo canister experiment would have all new meaning! the goo could be a hydrocarbon sample and you need to see how it behaves in different conditions and to work out how to locate it.

the player should feel like a genius when they identify and locate a resource deposit.

it would be cool to have to design your craft with the environment in mind. eg. frozen planet/ice cap need an ice core extractor but warmer planet with liquid lakes needs pumps and/or rain catchers, gas giants need air scoops. etc etc.

then comes the processing.

this would connect science tools with resource gathering and finally ship design.

*edit

What do you do with produced fule on Duna, even if it can't be filt in rockets-airplanes even in Kerbin. And Kerbal lives years floating in the space in a simple EVA-suit.

1. Kethan is a kind of cheat overall - gas station everyvhere.

2. The illustrated graph is a s***! Even the crude oil needs great refinement before use! And there is no crude oil - as there was no organic life to be fossilated in fifeless planets!

there are non-organic hydrocarbons out there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

"Research has been conducted by NASA regarding methane's potential as a rocket fuel. One advantage of methane is that it is abundant in many parts of the solar system and it could potentially be harvested on the surface of another solar-system body (in particular, Mars and Titan), providing fuel for a return journey."

apparently lakes of slushy semi-frozen methane on Titan.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[tntristan12]

I don't think resources being consistent throughout a biome sounds very fun. What if you had a few different scanners that could look for different types of materials, but they had a fairly large range of what the mineral/resource actually is.

Something like this:

You put up a scanning satellite with the required components. It shows a hexagonal grid like Kethanes because that's awesome.

It tells you that there is some kind of liquid resource in a few deposits on the surface but you don't know what they are until you land and check them with a probe.

Maybe a few more common resources can be found throughout the biomes, like the Interstellar Mods aluminum oxide rocket that can be refueled anywhere on the Mun.

I do agree that the unpredictability and variability of kethane deposits keeps things interesting. However, I know one of the primary complaints about it is the amount of time it takes to sufficiently map out the deposits (at least if you use a polar orbit, which is slower but maps more of the surface). Perhaps here the solution would be more biomes with more interesting boundary lines, making it more challenging to find the biome you want, rather than making the deposits smaller and therefore harder to find.

I like some of the feedback I'm getting on this idea. Glad to see the thread has made a comeback.

[KvickFlygarn87]

this is on the not to suggest list right?

For anybody who wants to throw the "do not suggest" list in my face, let me make abundantly clear that this is not a suggestion to add resources into the game.

I facepalmed so hard I almost got a nosebleed!

[Newq]

My first post! Hello all . This will have both things already said, mixed with some of my own (in my mind at least).

OK here goes:

Resource recovery should definitely be a stock idea, but maybe not for plain ol' rocket fuel.

First: Mining for the stock fuel and why/why not...

Getting a fuel station orbiting around Kerbin or Minmus is the most efficient way to refuel for interplanetary travel, and these resources can be easily built and maintained via Kerbin launches. However, qetting mining stations, refineries (grounded or orbital), is relatively cumbersome for something that is not required for IP travel. The Kethane mod has a nice way of requiring planet scans and even has a very convenient (and yes, simple) method to "refine" the Kethane ore into your choice of fuel, oxidizer, or RCS propellant. The mod overall adds a fun (and not necessarily quick) means to building IP gas stations. I'm glad that this mod doesnt require sending chem labs, refineries, and the catalysts required just to make a fuel I can get from home!

Second, mining resources for science! (collaboration with OP)

Recourse mining should not only reward science, but as OP stated, give rare minerals that may research to upgrade our already stock parts.

Examples:

Rare elements can research much lighter (and stronger) metals/metalloids.

If a liquid ore is discovered and found to be a propellant, it should be made very valuable and somewhat rare and WORTH building refineries ect. to ship it all the way back home and designing an engine to burn it.

Maybe if they add a planet with an extremely harmful atmosphere (radioactive) can only be visited after scouring one of Kerbins moons to find a very malleable but heavy mineral resistive to the corrosive "air" this new planet has to offer (space gold!). This would help reduce the "mining just to mine" aspect of it!

Thanks for reading!

or TLDR;

1. Mine minerals that upgrade fuselages to be lighter and stronger.

2. Any ore mined for propellant must be highly valuable and actually worth the trip (since everywhere can be reached from home without the need to mine).

3. Reduce the "mining just to mine" thought by adding a mineral that is resistive to a corrosive atmosphere of a much desired planet to see (space gold).