The Grand 0.23 Discussion Thread

[SargeRho]

And it's awesome. It fixes the twitchyness the control surfaces used to have that made precision flight very hard.

[Franklin]

And it's terrible, it takes away all the responsiveness and some of the ability for acrobatic skill flying etc, all because some people complain that planes are "too hard" or "unstable".

Those two issues are solved by GOOD plane design, not nerfing control surfaces.

We also complained that it was unrealistic to have control surfaces jerk like they did, and hopefully it fixed or is a step closer to fixing the infinite glider control surface exploit: http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Infinite_glider

[Meetze]

The career and science updates in .22 and .23 are spot on. When I started with KSP a while back, it was a little overwhelming to work in sandbox mode with all the parts. I personally am enjoying the steady progressing of career mode much better, and it's a great introduction to classic physics to pull any substantial delta-v's from that beginning parts list.

The .23 science update has a lot of potential. Although now, I'd like to see some hints based on the available parts list on what type of missions to build craft for in order to unlock more science. Maybe that's where the Contracts update is headed?

[Evans310]

In other words, all of the time I spent building, testing and transporting my science labs to their respective locations (planets) is wasted. They are now all one shot vehicles. Great. AND because I am running KSP though Steam, it auto updated so I don't have the option of not breaking my work. This should have been a user settable option, not an arbitrary lock.

Same sort of thing happened to me. Suck it up my friend; the game is better for the change. Now getting beyond Kerbin/Mun/Minmus will be a nice challenge. Maybe think about starting career mode over. That's what I did.

[Mihax209]

Wonderful. Very good changes in my opinion. Now I actually have a reason to fly the data back instead of spam the send data button. I get such more sense of achievement when I actually succeed in a mission and get a lot of science, and have to plan the exact amount of science equipment that I will need to put on my rocket. Too little, I will not be able to gather all the data for science, as the equipment locks up after sending data; or too many, and will just be dead weight for the rocket.

For the first time since I've started playing the game, I actually feel that I use all of the parts in the game, and actually learn to use them in different ways and for different purposes. Before the tech tree, I just used the big parts for the rockets, I didn't find any reason to use the smaller parts or different engines. When now every time I unlock more parts I can feel the variety of parts in the game.

Well done Squad, you're really doing an awesome job, and I hope your game keeps being successful as it is now, and just keep getting bigger and better. To infinity and beyond.

[Quickfire]

Response to 0.23

Overall, this is pretty good - I particularly liked the internals for the 4-kerbol habitat module, as well as the R.A.P.I.E.R engine - Good job, SQUAD team!

BUT

There are some bugs I am experiencing:

- once kerbols get in the lab, you can't get them out, there are no internals for it, and it only tells me it is 'operational' once right-clicked.

improvements (potential)

- the big cockpit with 3 kerbols doesnt have windows on internals, or piloting instuments. it would be a lot better with them.

Have a merry christmas, and well donE!

[ABalazs]

Do anybody knows what happened with air intakes/jet engines?

Today I made a simple single tube plane with one turbojet and one big intake to try new flameout limits, and I accidentally reached 105 km Apoapsis. Tried the same with 2 intakes and reached 199 km. I feel that reaching a full orbit with an SSTO is no longer a challenge. I just slapped 4 oscar B-s and 2 48-7S-s on the wingtips and next time I went to a 200 km full orbit. Last time I tried in 0.22 I needed at least 4 intakes, two 48-7S-s and 2 FL-T200 tanks to reach a low orbit, with some trickery around 30 km to gain my momentum.

Am I the only one who miss the challenge reaching LKO in 0.23?

[zarniw00p]

What I don't understand is why the Kerbin/Eve/Laythe ocean bug wasn't fixed. After all 0.23 was supposed to be primarily about fixing bugs and doing optimizations? The ocean lag is by far the most annoying thing in this game and severely affects gameplay around those planets. It needs urgent fixing!

Without changing the ocean-values in the settings.cfg the game is not playable on my computer. On ocean-less planets/moons the game runs fine and smooth without any lag. It's annoying to have something unimportant like an ocean affect your framerate when you're in a 100km orbit.

Is this bug really that impossible to fix??

[1stBiker]

Updated for my WIn 7 via the patcher; anyone else getting this issue?

Opening connection to kerbalspaceprogram.com:873 with transport RSYNC...

bin\rsync.exe -zrav --progress rsync://steve.holak%[email protected]:873/kerbalsp.production/KSP_win/ "/cygdrive/c/KerbalDwnload/ksp-win-0-22-0/KSP_win"

rsync: failed to connect to kerbalspaceprogram.com (198.20.66.242): Connection timed out (116)

rsync error: error in socket IO (code 10) at /home/lapo/package/rsync-3.0.9-1/src/rsync-3.0.9/clientserver.c(122) [Receiver=3.0.9]

rsync exited with code 10: Error in socket I/O

Cleanup

Cleaning up some leftover files...

And it hangs here

I have almost the same issue WIN7x64:

total size is 1559671465 speedup is 9.32

rsync error: some files/attrs were not transferred (see previous errors) (code 23) at /home/lapo/package/rsync-3.0.9-1/src/rsync-3.0.9/main.c(1518) [generator=3.0.9]

rsync exited with code 23: Partial transfer due to error

Cleanup

Cleaning up some leftover files...

Installed twice with the same effect !

I'm here to find a solution because I don't know if that is important. I have a lot of problems with the "Maneuver Points" since 0.23, they feel choppy or I cant set them at all. Sometimes if I grab one it turns red and I cant get it back from where I dragged it and that way I loose the MP.

Though, I'm new here and possibly its just lack of knowledge.

Love Kerbal.

Bought it after playing the Demo for 5 Minutes

<<<1stBiker

[Eric S]

Do anybody knows what happened with air intakes/jet engines?

Three things that are confirmed, not sure about anything else.

First, resources are handled a little differently, making it possible for engines to more effectively use the last bits of IntakeAir, for example. It used to be that turbojets wouldn't take fractional amounts of intake air from multiple engines, now they'll take every last bit of IntakeAir from every intake if necessary.

Second, engines now throttle down automatically if there's not enough of every resource needed. The most easily noticeable affect of this is that you can no longer turn off all your liquid fuel tanks to dump oxidizer, as the engine shuts down as soon as it's out of liquid fuel. The way this affects spaceplanes is that turbojets will automatically downthrottle rather than flame out (if you're using a single engine, I'm not sure how this works with multiple engines).

Finally, the IntakeAir resource displays in a different way. The amount of IntakeAir displayed is how much is left after the engines use however much they needed. This means that it's harder to judge if your engines are about to flame out, but easier to judge if they need to be downthrottled. The IntakeAir will read 0.0 as soon as the engine(s) can consume all of the IntakeAir you're brining in each tick, at which point they haven't actually flamed out yet, but they won't be running at full throttle either, unless the IntakeAir was exactly as much as was necessary. This isn't a change in efficiency, though it may make things look like they're more efficient or even bugged.

[ABalazs]

Three things that are confirmed, not sure about anything else.

First, resources are handled a little differently, making it possible for engines to more effectively use the last bits of IntakeAir, for example. It used to be that turbojets wouldn't take fractional amounts of intake air from multiple engines, now they'll take every last bit of IntakeAir from every intake if necessary.

Second, engines now throttle down automatically if there's not enough of every resource needed. The most easily noticeable affect of this is that you can no longer turn off all your liquid fuel tanks to dump oxidizer, as the engine shuts down as soon as it's out of liquid fuel. The way this affects spaceplanes is that turbojets will automatically downthrottle rather than flame out (if you're using a single engine, I'm not sure how this works with multiple engines).

Finally, the IntakeAir resource displays in a different way. The amount of IntakeAir displayed is how much is left after the engines use however much they needed. This means that it's harder to judge if your engines are about to flame out, but easier to judge if they need to be downthrottled. The IntakeAir will read 0.0 as soon as the engine(s) can consume all of the IntakeAir you're brining in each tick, at which point they haven't actually flamed out yet, but they won't be running at full throttle either, unless the IntakeAir was exactly as much as was necessary. This isn't a change in efficiency, though it may make things look like they're more efficient or even bugged.

Thanks mate!

BTW I gathered the intake air data I wanted, just not from the resources display. Flameout can be predicted now from individual air intake right click menus. Flameout happened at 0.36U with one intake and 0.18U with two intake on full throttle, and at proportionally lower values on lower throttle settings, so there is some consistency in those numbers.

[LunaTrick]

I just discovered [shift] [W] makes the kerbal walk fast. Not sure if it was in previous versions.

[mknote]

I just discovered [shift] [W] makes the kerbal walk fast. Not sure if it was in previous versions.

It's been in the game as long as EVAs have been. It also only works in higher gravity.

[NotCoach]

My two cents.

The lab sucks arse. I prefer the old method over this. If I have to lug that thing around I should be able to transmit ALL science back. I think a better solution was to require the lab for transmission of any science because it needed to be processed first. Otherwise no lab, no transmitting science. The way it is now I'm better off taking multiples of each experiment to any location and returning with all science in one go. I'm done carrying the lab around if I can carry less and get more in only one trip.

Tweakables are nice. Probably nicer than they first appear. If they went away I would probably miss them a lot.

Optimizations are excellent.

[jelgerlemmens]

I Love the MPL and the new possibilities it creates! Well done, and many thanks!

[LunaTrick]

What I don't understand is why the Kerbin/Eve/Laythe ocean bug wasn't fixed.

I have flown to Eve, Laythe (and Duna) three times each in .23 sandbox, optimizing and old craft for atmospheres. I see none of the frame rate problems mentioned at Laythe or Eve.

The way rovers inertia reacts to going uphill has improved. They slow down faster and begin to go backwards, more as one would expect.

I was going to report that the heavy landing legs aren't tweakable, but it is the case where you have to click up to a half a dozen times before it will "take". They are in fact tweakable. I was hoping one of the tweaks would be to drain some fuel from certain tanks. Gaven't seen that though.

[Jaxal1]

Opening my old career save, I can see the new lab in the parts list in the VAB. But it says something about needing to buy the tech from the research building before I can use it, but I can't find which upgrade to purchase.

I'm probably missing something obvious, help?!

[gorkyporky]

So, how do i transfer science from the goo canisters and such to the capsule? That's the thing i was most excited about in this update, but i cant figure out how to do it :|.

[LunaTrick]

So, how do i transfer science...

I found that you have to physically touch the device while on EVA. In the case of my rover I found I could get the data from the goo canister by walking right up against it, but all the other sensors were higher up. I could only stand right under them, but was not in contact with them, so I couldn't get the data. Seems like I should just have to touch the command section of the rover, and then glean any data from any sensor, attached to the command section.

I used to have annoying stuttering sound while launching high part count crafts - that is gone.

But I still have sounds of engines firing between screens (like VAB --> launch pad) like last version, and sometimes while operating a fully electric rover. That is a new problem in .23.

The high part count craft launch beautifully now.

I still can only plant one flag when using a command seat. I should be able to get another flag by being re-seated, and then getting out of the seat again to plant a second, third, etc - flag just like if I had a command module.

When launching and landing, the round and square lights start to show effect on the ground at about 300m out, yet when mounted to the front of the rover they reach out for about 10m. This should really be fixed.

General question: Is the dv needed to ascend from Laythe @ zero altitude correct at 2800m? I am finding I need more than that @ about 1Km. It seems more like Tylo amounts of dv are needed to me ~3100 @ 1Km altitude. Thanks.

[plaiddragon]

something i didn't see them mention was that the lab can reset the goo and science jr.

(sorry if it was mentioned and i was just being blind)

[plaiddragon]

just click on the part in your tech tree and click research, it is free and unlocks it.

[Ravenchant]

I particularly liked the internals for the 4-kerbol habitat module

You mean the Hitchhiker? It's had internals for a while now.

The big cockpit with 3 kerbals doesnt have windows on internals, or piloting instuments.

IIRC an overhaul of plane parts is planned at some point in the future. Meanwhile, there's this mod

[numerobis]

My picoreview:

I love tweakables, every bit of it -- but especially I love tweaking control surfaces.

I do not love the monopropellant tank in the cockpit. I kept forgetting to empty it until I just edited it out of the part.cfg. I read Harv's explanation of how it came to be, and it sounded to me like another example of how the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[floundericiousWA]

My own miniature addition to this discussion:

It seems strange that the kerbals know what biome you took a sample, temp-scan, etc. from ... without some kind of mapping/surveying first. It would make sense that your first rockets would be the very very weak kind, but that you should have a "camera" science part and a "radar mapping" part. You have to radar-survey and photograph the planetary body from an appropriate altitude to unlock the biomes. The biomes could be a separate tech-tree kind of thing...so having so much data about each biome captured by radar mapping and photography would unlock it.

Early on you don't have electrical storage or radio antennae so you have to return the spacecraft to Kerbin and recover it. (similar to early space exploration where remote sensing was essentially a film camera in a pressurized box with a mechanism to flick the shutter) Later you can send the data back (so... exploring the Mun and Minmus and Kerbin are easy in early game...and then other bodies become more feasible).

The biggest reason I came up with this idea was...not really knowing what the biomes were...how in the heck you identify them...without going outside the game to the wiki. (a big no-no IMHO) This gives a tech/science based path to "learn" about them and a reason to develop small probes instead of just making a kerbin-sized lander straight out of the gate.

[Aknar]

You are absolutely right, isa maps and ScanMaps are nice, but they are still insufficient since they don't show biomes, only anomalies (easter eggs). Majiir, Kethane Mod creator, is working on a new mod using his hexagon grid system to give that info. This will allow you to plan your trips according to what you haven't discovered yet. It would also be nice to have 1 science point for each tile, as it is valuable information.