.23 - Just not getting the progression-path for science labs.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

I'm waiting for the mod that will alter the transmission percentage for the Science Lab.

You can edit the config files actually, it's called transmissionboost or something like that and the default is 1.5

[MiniMatt]

Yeah, seeing this as a bit of an issue too. But I'm not of the opinion that tweaking max transmission gain is the way to approach it - that just leaves us balancing transmission spam against worthless orbiting infrastructure. I've made the point elsewhere but present system is kind of akin to launching the Hubble Telescope and only getting the images out of it (ie. the SCIENCE) once it's been returned to Earth.

Obviously this whole area will see significant tweaking over coming months but I forsee future reasons for exclusively space based infrastructure beyond just filling a tech tree. For example, having enough Gravmax sensors in orbit around different bodies allows Kerbal scientists to better understand gravitational orbits of planets prompting availability of a launch window calendar tab in the R&D building (greater accuracy coming from greater number and dispersal of these satellites).

Edited December 19, 2013 by MiniMatt

[TheGeoninja]

I will admit without it I wouldn't have finally docked manually.

[Xegon]

For those interested, i took some numbers on the launchpad. In short: refining one and bring one home gets you 83,25%, bringing home 2 samples gehts you 95,21%.

So, getting home 2 samples is probably easier than docking in orbit and refining&cleaning, so yeah, it's not the most usefule thing...

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/62406-Science-gathering-mechanics

[Highlad]

Im pretty much with you guys on this as well... I think the science lab was meant to combat the OP-ness of transmitting in 0.22 and it has over compensated in such a way that makes transmissions useless...

Also, speaking of scrubbing your experiments. I had a little problem the other day:

I was doing some science on the mun and then brought my ship back to my kerbin space station. After docking I used the lab in the hope it would increase the 'bring it home' value. It didnt, meh. I then took jeb out on an eva and tried to put the experiments into my ssto. Aaaaaaand it didn't work... whats up with the Mk1 cockpit not liking experiments?! Kinda defeats the point of my ssto...

On a side note:

What Im waiting for is, when they bring in currency, a part that will sit in orbit (much like the science lab) and generate money at a slow pace. I think that would be cool.

[magnemoe]

Instead of doing transmission spamming, you just need to bring more one-shot science containers and you get the same effect during a landing and return mission. I made a large lander with a dozen or so goo canisters and a few science lab jr's and simply hopped from biome to biome, then returned ... almost as effective as the old spamming. I really don't see the use of the science lab. Maybe for interplanetary missions to buildup on the science a bit, but if you're in it just to max out the science as fast as possible, I don't get it either.

-- Dingbat.

Yes as my Jool science mission did back in 0.22, Vall, Bop and Poll used an reuseable ship with three science modules who was changed between landings.

Laythe and Tylo used staged ships and I dropped the upper stage after docking science module

Is the only benefit of the science lab that you can reuse the material lab and goo?

You have to transmit and only get 20% of the data anyway?

yes it makes it pretty pointless.

[celem]

Yeah for that aspect of cleaning parts im finding it better to skip that lab entirely, carry multiples of the canisters/bays down and eva to recover the data before blowing them off and leaving them. Sub-orbital biome hop, rinse, repeat, RETURN! Probably work between moons as well as between biomes if the lander is built for that. Plus it doesnt need a powered Kerbin landing/chute-forest since you can return just the capsule.

Edited December 19, 2013 by celem

[PrZe77]

It would be nice if that would solve SQUAD on the data size:

Each experiment has a certain data size. Each capsule can save a certain amount of data. The transmission quality is determined by the antenna. A small antenna, for example, 10 Mbits transferred without error, the next 10 Mbits to 75%, another 10 Mbits to 50% and so on ...

If the science lab then has a huge data storage and has the ability to compress data then it would also make sense to use it.

[KerbMav]

The return capsule can store one copy of the science results from each biome and at the end take all the data back to Kerbin for recovery.

Which is a nice update.

I have been using a mod part for this until now, which can even store multiples of the same biome-experiment (with diminishing returns for every one after the first).

For those interested, i took some numbers on the launchpad. In short: refining one and bring one home gets you 83,25%, bringing home 2 samples gehts you 95,21%.

So, getting home 2 samples is probably easier than docking in orbit and refining&cleaning, so yeah, it's not the most usefule thing...

So it would be even nicer if the lab could preevaluate data/samples in a way that would allow the pods to return multiples of the same biome-experiments like the mod part does.

Instead of Kerbin's scientists going "Yeah, cute rock sample, next time we should get more of the brown ones though!" it would be more like kerbonauts going "Looks interesting, we should bag some more of the brown ones before we fly home!".

But we should keep one thing in mind: We must not compare the "difficulty level" of .22 to .23, as the science in KSP is still in development and not in its final form.

Yet I agree that it looks like the lab has not yet accomplished to be what it was expected to be by the players.

[SpaceToast]

I'd have to go with this. My lander can now be shaved of a lot of extra mass, and I don't have to send multiple missions, probes, etc. While I can't speak for anything past Duna yet, I'd assume the efficiency of packing the Science Lab with a light lander is going to save me more weight overall.

Not really. You still need to make two trips with a lander to/from where you are doing the science. The fuel is still needed.

[SpaceToast]

I've got a suggestion and thought on how to make this thing "viable" and useful as an orbiting "basecamp" and lab. I've given my feedback here, hopefully the vanilla lab will get updated in the next patch.

When I get home tonight, I'm going to edit it's config file to try allow is to boost the transmission quality of experiments/data up to 100%. somehow. Instant reason to park it in orbit and bother with hopping to and fro and rendevous'ing with it in other SOI's. I might, for the heck of it, tweak other items on it (since it's a big space hab, how about some built in batteries, more RCS fuel, etc?)

When I get it tweaked to function like that, I'll share the config file.

[Rastaman]

You can reuse major experiments, what's the problem? Everything is going to be smaller. The lab is meant to give you a bonus while you're still low tech. You can use it to explore far flung objects, gain more science while transmitting. When you have teched up, you can go for the return missions.

[SpaceToast]

You can reuse major experiments, what's the problem? Everything is going to be smaller. The lab is meant to give you a bonus while you're still low tech. You can use it to explore far flung objects, gain more science while transmitting. When you have teched up, you can go for the return missions.

The problem is the lab + fuel to return to orbit to dock with it (and clean the experiments +transmit to a max of 40%), then return to the surface, and do it again, is much more mass then simply putting a ton of science jr's and goo cannisters on your lander. You then eva, transfer all of the experiment data to the capsule, decouple the cannisters and science bays, and fly back home for the whole 100%. Using a 1st tier capsule, a couple of fl-200's, and a lander motor I managed to get 1300 science in a one-off mission to minmus just by hopping from biome to biome.

In fact, there really is no reason to use the lab at all, as it stands right now. A better idea is to simply bring a mk-1 capsule, an fl200 fuel tank, and a high ISP lander motor along as a "data return vehicle" instead. By the time you get to locations where either is useful (jool, duna, eve) etc, you have enough tech to easily handle the weight. Bring it to the SOI, dump all of your science findings on it, and send it back home. It would take less real world time than monkeying around with endless rendevous maneuvers.

And there is the flaw in the design, I think. So I'll tweak the config file

[Monger]

I think SQUAD should separate the experiments: there should be experiments that need to be recovered, and there should be experiments that need to be transmitted. Period.

If you are able to land the lab and a rover, you can easily (and without further resources except electricity) collect experiments from all over the moon/planet and process them in the lab. Actually, you could go one step further, and define that some experiments can't be transmitted until they were processed in the lab.

Hm... yeah, I guess science will need another refactoring at some point.

[Rastaman]

And there is the flaw in the design, I think. So I'll tweak the config file

In other words, because they didn't anticipate such minmaxing it is "flawed" and useless.

[LameLefty]

I think the Science Lab will start to show its true worth in the next several versions as the economy is implemented. It's going to be essentially impossible in the stock game to just spam Kerbin, the Mün and Minmus biomes with a metric buttload of missions in a few game-days to max out the tech tree; you're going to have to take time to consider how much each mission costs you for the science gained - and the cost will be more tangible than just time in the VAB and then executing the mission. When each goo canister and material science bay costs a significant fraction of the mission budget, you'll have to try to economize and optimize your mission plans when you head out to Duna/Ike and Eve/Gilley, let along Jool. So then, when the financial costs come into play, the value of the Science Lab will become more obvious.

As it stands now, I see it as more "something to do" rather than just being the best way to get the most Science!â„¢

[Geschosskopf]

The problem is the lab + fuel to return to orbit to dock with it (and clean the experiments +transmit to a max of 40%), then return to the surface, and do it again, is much more mass then simply putting a ton of science jr's and goo cannisters on your lander. You then eva, transfer all of the experiment data to the capsule, decouple the cannisters and science bays, and fly back home for the whole 100%. Using a 1st tier capsule, a couple of fl-200's, and a lander motor I managed to get 1300 science in a one-off mission to minmus just by hopping from biome to biome.

Have you noticed the bug in doing things this way?

For me anyway, when my EVA Kerbal goes to board a capsule while carrying Goo and Material data, a message pops up saying that the capsule can't store those types of data and I'll have to dump them to go inside. So I go inside anyway but when I land the capsule and recover it, I still have the data as shown on the recovery screen.

So obviously something is broken here. The options are that the capsule is broken and shouldn't be able to store such data (so the message is correct), or the capsule is supposed to be able to store this data (and thus the message shouldn't be displaying). Both options have interesting implications.

If we assume that capsules are broken, then what we're supposed to have is only the mobile lab being able to store Goo and Material data. In which case, you'd need the mobile lab, and have to recover it, to get all these points.

But OTOH, there's a conceptual problem with capsules being unable to hold Goo and Material data. I mean, if an EVA Kerbal can put this data in his pockets, why can't it stay in his pockets while he's in the capsule, even if the capsule has no storage area of it's own?

[SpaceToast]

In other words, because they didn't anticipate such minmaxing it is "flawed" and useless.

Not useless, but I'm thinking of what the intent was behind it. It's there to prevent retransmit spam, and give us a reason for labs/stations (beyond refuel and aesthetics). Ok, so it sort of does, kind of. But it's less useful (and more time consuming) for science than a simple capsule, small tank, and engine. Since .24 is some time in the future, and I really *want* to use the lab, I'll mod the config file to make it useful in the way that I believe was the intent of the developers. I'm not going to make it a god-module, but I will provide an incintive to myself to use it, as opposed to the loophole I use now, which is cover a lander in tons of goo cannisters and science jr's, then just send the results home.

What is "minmaxing"?

[SpaceToast]

Have you noticed the bug in doing things this way?

For me anyway, when my EVA Kerbal goes to board a capsule while carrying Goo and Material data, a message pops up saying that the capsule can't store those types of data and I'll have to dump them to go inside. So I go inside anyway but when I land the capsule and recover it, I still have the data as shown on the recovery screen.

So obviously something is broken here. The options are that the capsule is broken and shouldn't be able to store such data (so the message is correct), or the capsule is supposed to be able to store this data (and thus the message shouldn't be displaying). Both options have interesting implications.

If we assume that capsules are broken, then what we're supposed to have is only the mobile lab being able to store Goo and Material data. In which case, you'd need the mobile lab, and have to recover it, to get all these points.

But OTOH, there's a conceptual problem with capsules being unable to hold Goo and Material data. I mean, if an EVA Kerbal can put this data in his pockets, why can't it stay in his pockets while he's in the capsule, even if the capsule has no storage area of it's own?

I've noticed the message that the data can't be stored, but it's usually when a copy of said data foa a biome/SOI level is already stored. (Returning data yields 100% of it's value, so doubling it doesn't serve a purpose). Is that what you are talking about?

[SpaceToast]

I think the Science Lab will start to show its true worth in the next several versions as the economy is implemented. It's going to be essentially impossible in the stock game to just spam Kerbin, the Mün and Minmus biomes with a metric buttload of missions in a few game-days to max out the tech tree; you're going to have to take time to consider how much each mission costs you for the science gained - and the cost will be more tangible than just time in the VAB and then executing the mission. When each goo canister and material science bay costs a significant fraction of the mission budget, you'll have to try to economize and optimize your mission plans when you head out to Duna/Ike and Eve/Gilley, let along Jool. So then, when the financial costs come into play, the value of the Science Lab will become more obvious.

As it stands now, I see it as more "something to do" rather than just being the best way to get the most Science!â„¢

Ah - then it all hinges on the cost of the goo and science cans, doesn't it? Because one lander mission to/from minmus can pull in over a thousand science using tier 3 parts.

[Geschosskopf]

I've noticed the message that the data can't be stored, but it's usually when a copy of said data foa a biome/SOI level is already stored. (Returning data yields 100% of it's value, so doubling it doesn't serve a purpose). Is that what you are talking about?

Nope, I'm talking about something else. The scenario was as follows:

I'd sent a big mothership containing the mobile lab to Duna and back, which had 2 Goos and 1 Material on it that had been exposed and stored in high and low Duna orbit. But this mothership had no ability to land, so when it got back to Kerbin, I sent up a capsule to recover the crew. Once the capsule was docked, I EVA'd the Duna crew to the capsule. On the way, they collected the data from the Goo and Materials and brought it to the capsule. When they boarded the capsule, I got the message saying the capsule could not store the data and I'd have to dump it go board.

Because there was no other way to get the Kerbals home, I selected "board anyway, dump data" and figured I'd lost it. But when I landed the capsule and hit the recovery button, I still got the end-of-mission report on science earned, and it showed the Goo and Material data from Duna orbit.

The capsule had zero science parts on it. It was merely the pod, a docking port, and just enough RCS and rocket to rendezvous, dock, and de-orbit. It had no data of its own to start with, so this wasn't a case of bringing in multiple copies of the same data. The only data I recovered when it landed came from Duna. So obviously I kept the data that the message said I had to dump to board the capsule. This data included both Goos, which were from different altitudes. And that was it, nothing else.

So like I said, something's broken here. Either it's cool for capsules to store Goo and Material data and we shouldn't be getting a message saying they can't, or capsules are broken and are storing data they shouldn't be able to. If it's supposed to be that capsules can't store Goo and Materials, then you'd need the mobile lab for that, and would have to recover it instead of/along with the capsule.

Maybe the game got confused because the capsule was docked to the mobile lab. As I understand things, that makes them part of the same ship for various game mechanics. Because mobile labs CAN store Goo and Material data, the ship as a whole has that ability. Then perhaps the routine that stores data doesn't care which part ends up holding it, while perhaps another routine only checks part data capabilities when you go through the hatch and tosses up the warning, but doesn't actually have any power over the fate of the data.

[SpaceToast]

The only thing I can suggest is do a test without the lab - minmus or the moon (since it'll only take 10mins of playtime to do). That is an odd one, for sure.

[lazarus1024]

The idea is you'd park a science lab around (or on) the Mun, then hit all the different biomes with a smaller craft, returning to the lab to unload the science.

This way you're going back and forth between the Mun and your Mun lab, instead of the Mun and Kerbin.

Yes, but the biggest issue is that you have to take so much fuel to do something like that, the mission would be a bear. Considering the overall low cap on science earned by transmissions now, I think the use cases for the science lab are relatively low. They exist, sure, but they still aren't huge.

I think to rebalance it, SQUAD needs to change the mechanic so that the max science earned with a lab is 60-75% of the total, instead of the same 40% cap that transmissions have. THAT would add a large benefit to having a lab. Just my 2 cents. Otherwise I don't see many instances where it makes sense to have a lab.

About the only time I think it does is rather low gravity moons, like Minmus or future ones like Ike, Bop and Gilly if they ever gain Biomes, because the dV cost to get to those moons is high, but the dV cost to travel to different spots on the moons is low. So having to schlep half a dozen materials bays and goos along is much more prohibitive than a lab, one of each and then just redock with the thing several times.

Something like the Mun, Duna, etc, even with Biomes, you are possibly better off just carrying everything with you, extracting the science through EVA and then returning a small craft back to Kerbin with all the experiments on-board.

Overall I like the balance of science in the update, but I do wish that either transmissions could get a slightly higher percentage of the overall, especially for things like Thermometer readings, or else the lab allowed for a higher overall percentage of science by using it. As it stands, transmissions seem to only be worth while for places where return missions are very prohibitive, like Eve's surface, Tylo's surface and Laythe's surface and maybe some out of the way places like Moho and Eyloo.

Which again, it would be nice to have labs allow a somewhat higher max science value for transmissions in this case, because a 40% cap is a little low when you are using a full on lab (yes, I realize that if the experiment transmits, say, 40% normally, you'll get 55% total with the labs +15% bonus, but that doesn't help things like the materials bay which is only 20% transmision to begin with, because it still caps at 40% total).

[Reicht]

No offense to anyone, but if you're not going beyond Minmus then yes the Science lab is kind of a bit more work than is necessary to get the Job done, but once you're talking 2 interplanetary trips then the time, resources, and challenge starts to sway back in favor of the lab. Take Jool and all of it's moons, one lab in orbit around Jool and a small crew of bots could handle that entire planetary system.

As for it's payout, the lab shouldn't give transmitted points, it should give half value for returned results. Since the sample was infact tested in a lab by scientists, but the results should be half as much as a valid specimen return because you can't ebay it later.

[SpaceToast]

I think to rebalance it, SQUAD needs to change the mechanic so that the max science earned with a lab is 60-75% of the total, instead of the same 40% cap that transmissions have. THAT would add a large benefit to having a lab. Just my 2 cents. Otherwise I don't see many instances where it makes sense to have a lab.

Which again, it would be nice to have labs allow a somewhat higher max science value for transmissions in this case, because a 40% cap is a little low when you are using a full on lab (yes, I realize that if the experiment transmits, say, 40% normally, you'll get 55% total with the labs +15% bonus, but that doesn't help things like the materials bay which is only 20% transmision to begin with, because it still caps at 40% total).

It should be a simple tweak in the config file. When I get home I'll dig around in it and let you know.