Science Related suggestions post 0.23

[ZeroTolerance]

Hello, hate to start off my first post like..ever on these forums since KSP 0.11 or something with a semi-grumpy set of suggestions but...this stuffs been eating my brain the last two days since 0.23 came out so I thought I'd put up the suggestions.

Inoperability and Diminishing Returns for Science Transmission

Don't get me wrong here I believed the entire situation of "science spam" in 0.22 was a little out of balance...but it also gave science equipment and communications equipment a purpose. The slow diminishing return eventually meant that sending the same report over and over would eventually render 0 gains...this made sense, even if it allowed for manned missions to repeat a lot of data and then bring back physical data as well and get credit for all of it.

But the current 180 on this, rendering science equipment inoperable after transmission unless you reset your science systems at a Science Lab is not well thought out. Especially since the Science Lab itself is an 11 ton piece of equipment thats not exactly easy to get into orbit with other fundamental payload additions to something like that.

The early tech tree of KSP depends heavily on sending probes to Duna and Dres and Jool (if you can squeeze enough fuel into a rocket to get it done...some people can, some people can't, everyone plays KSP their own way) after having completed manned missions to Minmus and the Mun. Its simply the only thing you can do because you cannot throw enough manned mass to Duna...much less Dres or Jool and expect to get there, aerobrake through orbit and eventually land AND return with the data. Its a simple impossibility for most average players....and I'd consider myself fairly average.

So probes were my way to reach my next level of manned missions. I'd send probes to Duna and Dres and sometimes Jool though I'd usually run out of fuel before I could get into a stable orbit at Jool, but at least Duna and Ike and Dres would yield enough science return for me to make up for my technical deficiencies and then begin building up for manned missions to each.

Now this isn't to say that I can't send several missions to Duna and Ike to get the data I need...but thats onerously repetitive simply to get data that one good probe was able to get in 0.22, and unlike some superstars....I simply do not possess the engineering skill, nor am I a physicist nor a mathematician so calculating how to design a rocket with mixed tier 3 and 4 parts that can lift a multiprobe payload into orbit and get them all the way to the target is a huge endeavor and believe me I've tried several times.

I just recently completed a multiprobe design that did get to Duna...only problem is 4 probes was about the most I could lift with the tech I have, and 4 probes yielded about half the science of one probe in 0.22...also once used these probes become completely worthless because there really isn't anything they can do beyond their one shot landing and comm burst. Thats it. So I'm basically throwing away a lot of tech just to make a very minimal gain in tech in return.

Overall I think the diminishing returns system was good enough, cause not only is this really retarding my technical progression, its also making using probes and communications next to worthless because not only do you only get the one shot from the science equipment on board the probe, you're getting 30/60% of the worth of the data if you could simply bring it home and....sorry but I don't know of any probe design that can land on Duna, take back off and reach escape velocity and return to Kerbin. I simply cannot engineer a probe that can do this and keep the probe small enough to not need immense amounts of LFO...which simply adds more weight which kills my TWR from KSC even more regardless of how well designed my rockets are....theres only so much you can do with 1.25m parts as an average player (don't get me wrong...I know there are some seriously insanely good players that can probably go everywhere on 1.25m parts..but I'm not one of them).

So in summary:

1.) Inoperability after transmission devalues the time and effort in even trying to reach a destination and send data. I mean what if I have enough fuel on one probe to hop to a couple biomes? What then? I can't take new science readings without transmitting the original readings, so....its basically a long drawn out project simply to spend a minute and a half doing a couple interactions on the planets surface then...thats it, nothing else to do, probes dead, head back to the Space Center and kill it like the debris it is I guess.

2.) If transmitting data must require inoperability. Then data transmission should not have a degraded level of return in comparison to physical return, base rate for any scientific data gained should be 100%, physical return of data should get a bonus...especially if equipment is going to be basically rendered useless after one set of tests.

I get that some people felt the tech tree was "too easy" in 0.22, but this stuff is eventually going to start costing credits/kerbal shekels/resources, its not going to be economically feasible to spend 4 probes doing something that one probe could do if it was only allowed to operate like a real space probe. Its not like WMAP sent back one MRB image and then was completely incapable of doing anything else. We just don't design satellites like that in real life...its far to expensive to launch even a 2 ton payload under the considerations of it being a one time use apparatus. So this really needs some thought. The "science spam" in 0.22 was probably not in line with challenging the hardcore KSP player, I'll more than happily agree with that, especially after looking over Abyssal Lurker's video montage...but Abyssal Lurker isn't the average KSP player either. Making communications worthless in comparison to manned missions puts a serious difficulty cliff to climb for players working with tier 3 parts that have already exhausted their near Kerbin opportunities which is also far easier to do now because the only reports that matter are the very first reports made. (Not to mention the fact that it makes excellent mods like Remote Tech 2 kinda pointless busy work since setting up a satellite network has very little point if you're simply going to avoid using communications at all to maximize your science potentials) Even if you got every biome of Kerbin, the Mun and Minmus you'd still be fairly challenged to step up to the next level without probes first, and even then...getting EVERY biome would require you to literally spam Kerbals at the Mun and Minmus in a rapid fire line of launches simply to achieve it at least 30 launches just off the top of my head, to get all the Kerbin system biome data and..of course, return it all....which is, once again, not something thats going to be feasibly in line with a KSP that is eventually going to have resource costs attached to part usage.

Okay I've belabored that point long enough. Overall it needs rethought. Communications are the backbone of any space program, and unmanned missions are far more common than manned missions. We haven't sent a man outside LEO in over 50 years after all.

Science Equipment....It Doesn't Make Sense

Okay so I'm just going to focus on Science Jr. here and the Goo pods mostly but....early in the tech tree they're fine. But in my sandbox game I'm finding myself staring at them going....so why exactly do I need to attach these things to my 11 ton lander?

Simple math here would kinda indicate to me that these parts should become redundant and integrated into command modules that you achieve later in the tech tree. A Mark 2 Lander Can should not need to have a Science Jr. attached to the top of it to do science...its ridiculous cause effectively anything the science module is doing should be contained in the lander can.

This is a much shorter suggestion/complaint that my previous one but as much as I'm enjoying KSP after 0.22 (I got kinda bored with it since it had no progressive goals previous to that, and you can only launch so many insane rockets into space before it becomes kind of yesterdays news and having no reason to actually go to other planets previous to 0.22 other than to figuratively get a t-shirt didn't really entice me to bother) these science parts are literally ridiculous once you start dealing with 2.5m parts. They're just inane and unnecessary weight that should have been 1) superceded by a better part for the 2.5m design. Or 2.) Been integrated into 2.5m capsules and command modules.

I mean what point do 2.5m command modules have other than to have more space? Obviously they have more space because they weigh a lot more, and obviously internalizing this testing equipment would be a logical step when increasing technical capabilities from the 1.25m design schema to the 2.5m designs.

So in short, science is making my rockets look stupid, and my landers look even stupider. It doesn't make sense that my 1.25m landers are now 3 meters taller by default because of the 2m science part...and the fact that I'm needing to use FLT-400 tanks, rather than FLT-200 tanks, to adjust for the weight increase as well. My 1.25m landers don't look so much like landers as they end up looking like stubby fat pencils. My 2.5m landers are hilarious because regardless of anything....the lander can or command module. has to wear a Science Jr. Hat..cause its the only way to do it that makes sense.

So yeah, it would be nice if these science parts evolved a bit more through the tiers and, eventually became integrated as stock functionality in the heavy command modules because...seriously we're already throwing enough weight up into the atmosphere in that regard.

So yeah...thats my first post and I'm not saying I am right and this must be done my way....I'm just saying this is how I feel about KSP 0.23...I like it of course, but career mode is getting fairly frustrating. Cause as "cheaty" as being able to send multiple communication reports and return physical data might have seemed....simple facts are it was a lot less easy than simply opening your persistance.sfs file and changing your sci value to 20000 or something. So in short...some of us felt like we were actually achieving something in KSP in 0.22, and now in 0.23, I feel like all I'm achieving is relaunching the same mission over and over and simply changing the orbit inclination a bit to land in a different place....its kinda boring, imho.

[Styrr]

Hi ZeroTolerance,

there is a post adressing the issues you mention in Inoperability and Diminishing Returns for Science Transmission: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/62786-A-change-in-how-science-works-in-relation-to-transmitting-and-returning

I agree with both your main points. I also loved to builed the RemoteTech2 satellite networks and now I don't see a sense in it since I'm only doing manned missions. Probes are pointless in .23.

I also agree to your second point. However, I think it would also be OK to have an additional science module fitting for 2.5m parts, where you could do more sufisticated science.

[thereaverofdarkness]

The MPL is only 3.5 tons actually. I use it a lot. In fact I mostly use it. And I'm only exploring Minmus and soon the Mün. I would definitely take it to other planets. It's way easier than sending samples back home. The research gained from processing in the lab is less, but it's still a lot.

[CaptRobau]

The Science Lab is, as thereaverofdarkness, said only 3.5 tons not 11. It's a ridiculously light part, compared to other pods. At the very least it should be made to weigh around 5 tons, since that's the weight of two Hitchhiker cabins which are half the height of a science lab. At the same time I'd argue for a bigger transmission boost from the science lab. So that would compensate for the weight increase.

[thereaverofdarkness]

I think that's reasonable. I feel it's too easy to move around, and does seem kinda weak.

[boomerdog2000]

While I agree the science lab needs some tweaks, you can get a lot of science done on the Mun and Minmus. Except for aircraft parts and some last tier tech I'm almost done with the tech-tree without having to go interplanetary. With the new biomes on Minmus and the promise of biomes elsewhere there was actually a thread asking if we could increase the difficulty of the tech-tree, since so much can be done in the Kerbin SOI.

[Sevant]

Probes are pointless in .23.

I disagree. While probes may not be able to perform most of the science available for each planet, you can still get lots of research points using them in .23. For example, I recently sent a probe with 7 smaller, detachable probes to Jool. Net result, 3372 research. While that isn't huge (as in, it won't let you finish the tech tree with one mission), I think it is a reasonable return on a weeks worth of game play (who wants to beat a game in a single week?). Best of all, since it didn't let me one shot the tech tree (which is certainly what would have happened in .22), I now have reason to start trying manned missions to other planets.

[Styrr]

(...) For example, I recently sent a probe with 7 smaller, detachable probes to Jool. Net result, 3372 research. While that isn't huge (as in, it won't let you finish the tech tree with one mission), I think it is a reasonable return on a weeks worth of game play (who wants to beat a game in a single week?). (...) I now have reason to start trying manned missions to other planets.

You've got a point here. Though, in my opinion probe missions are not significantly easier to do in KSP (especially with RemoteTech2). Since we don't have to cope with radiation, food/oxygen supply, isolation etc. for our Kerbals, there is nothing that makes a manned mission or a haul back more difficult besides to bring with you a little more deltav for return. So it's a players decission to do unmanned first to have a realistic storyline. This is perfect for sandbox mode. However, for career where the goal is to provide a certain frame, the game machanics should give you the reason to act so.

The main reason I dislike the introduction of the handling of transmissions is the redundancy. E.g I can do 1 probed and 1 manned mission to get the same science as for the manned mission solely. So why bother with probes? This may of course be legitimate when cost is introduced and probe missions are cheaper than manned missions.

[Superfluous J]

I haven't done it (yet) but there's nothing stopping you from bringing extra science jr's and goo containers on your probes. And before you say it, no. It's not too much extra weight. Could you get 2 science jr's and 2 goo containers to the surface of Mun? You can land a probe on Duna for LESS dV than you can land on Mun, simply because of aerobraking. You can also get to Jool and do flybys (which is all a probe needs to do) of all those moons for less dV than landing on Mun. Note: I didn't say landing and getting back to Kerbin with a manned mission. I'm just talking landing on Mun.

Also, send a dozen probes to Mun. Land one in each huge crater, one at each pole, and a couple more on any interesting thing you find (those canyons look inviting). Make sure they have enough battery power to transmit all of your science in one go, and then just delete the probe or leave it there as junk. Do similar to Minmus and you'll have more science than you know what to do with. Actually, what you can do with it is go to Jool and Duna (and Eve. That one's easy too compared to Mun).

All of this requires transmitting data back. If you bring extra science and goos and put them in their own stages, you can even take a reading in high orbit, transmit, drop the spent can, take a reading in low orbit, transmit and drop the can, take a reading near landing, transmit and drop, and finally take one landed. Bring extra for Laythe and other atmosphere worlds because you'll get even more science for doing the readings in atmosphere.

I can't stress enough that you want enough power to transmit a full experiment, though.

Edited December 25, 2013 by 5thHorseman

[jwenting]

I've unlocked close to half the tech tree in 0.23 and haven't built a lander yet, haven't left the Kerbin/Mun/Minmus system yet.

And I've not launched a single lab either.

Just a load of flyby missions of the Mun and Minmus and some suborbital hops to visit the various biomes on Kerbin with capsules that have some goo containers strapped to them.

Could probably get a lot more arranging orbits such that they overfly specific biomes and grab all the science from that as well, then start making some landers and visiting the Mun and Minmus with those.

By the time I am done with that, should have plenty of parts unlocked to send a load of one way unmanned missions to the other planets, and that will be the first time using transmitters...

[drinniol]

I'm in agreement with the OP that the needle swung too far in the other direction. Unless you use a prebuilt craft or know what you're doing you could waste hours and hours in getting a manned flight to one of the other planets, only to find out you needed a few hundred more delta v to return safely and having all that time wasted - and this is personal experience. Much easier and dare I say fun to send a drone on a one-way ticket first.

There's several solutions to this that have been mentioned elsewhere but I just wanted to add my impressions.

[Clockwork_werewolf]

I think peoples play styles greatly affects how you feel about this.

If you are a player that is fine sending one off craft that will never return (with or without Kerbals), then this update makes the game very hard. You may have no experience designing return craft or planning fuel for the return. In that past update you could spam the transmitter and it was fine. If you play like this then this update seems to make it far too hard. Getting back alive from the Mun or minus is in fact fairly easy as they have no atmo and very little gravity. Which brings me to my second point.

If you are a player that only visits every planet or moon once then you will struggle to get out of the Kerbin system. Now don't get me wrong I understand that you might be bored of going back to the same moon 6 times. In 0.22 with the gravitons stated science and actual science the first time I transmitted I though I lost science never to be recovered when transmitted so I never transmitted again. Due to this I had to visit the Mun 5 times to get the Tech to visit AND return from other planets. Now though with the Mun and Minmus having biomes you have some variety and you can always try and make USEFUL stations or bases on or around them as well. With Mun and Minmus Science you can almost finish the tech tree without leaving Kerbin system. I did this about 3 days after release.

If you are a player like me who does multiple science visits and returns from Minmus and the Mun, then the game is easy with a few annoying parts. I would say the science lab should be a bit heavier (maybe 5 tons) but also it should add 5-10% more to transmissions than it does now. I would NOT like to see a return to 100% transmissions or even 50% really for one simple reason. Making a return craft is 2 to 5 times harder than a one shot, if you can just transmit even half the data then it's not worth making them and it is not fun to always have just only one option (one shot).

I would love to see some kind of Kerbal life support in the vanilla game ( know it's available in mods) but if there was I would want to see higher science from crew reports and samples or we would be back to the ALWAYS send a probe approach.

I want to see a game where you have to decide whether to sand a one shot probe a return probe or a manned (Kerballed mission) depending on the situation and your Tech at that time.