[1.8+] Real Fuels

[NathanKell]

Yes. Well, IntakeAir isn't set up for that yet--I believe it's set to 1g/cc density at the moment, which is rather high for air, but given how many units/sec intakes take in right now, probably ok.

[Rag3aholik]

Hey so having an issue. I've reinstalled several times and am pretty lost at this point. Cleaned out my version and reinstalled, added in ONLY the realism overhaul mods. I cannot interact with the GUI on this mod. Can't scroll, can't add or remove fuel (every once in a while when I click it will go through with add fuel. that's it.). Is this common? Did I do something wrong? Not a compsci guy

[Scripto23]

Hey so having an issue. I've reinstalled several times and am pretty lost at this point. Cleaned out my version and reinstalled, added in ONLY the realism overhaul mods. I cannot interact with the GUI on this mod. Can't scroll, can't add or remove fuel (every once in a while when I click it will go through with add fuel. that's it.). Is this common? Did I do something wrong? Not a compsci guy

Just to check, are you accessing the GUI through the action group menu?

[Rag3aholik]

Just to check, are you accessing the GUI through the action group menu?

I am. When I click on it the border changes color. Black to white, I believe. But no true interaction occurs.

[NathanKell]

Just to check, no folder called ModularFuelTanks in GameData?

What OS?

Post your output_log.txt?

[Rag3aholik]

Just to check, no folder called ModularFuelTanks in GameData?

What OS?

Post your output_log.txt?

No such folder.

Windows 7

And didn't know what you wanted, so here's a google docs link!

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0HgD4JS4iRZdi1FTlVBbUJaSms/edit

Hope that's okay

[NathanKell]

Huh. Kinda stumped. Don't see anything obviously wrong in the log.

Can you try loading KSP with *just* the Squad folder and the RealFuels folder in GameData?

[Scripto23]

I have two questions regarding H2 boil off.

1) How do the various space agencies (irl) plan to transport H2 over long distances and avoid losing most of the H2? For instance having an H2 tank to power an NTR on a return trip from Mars. Or taking H2 to another body to use in a sabatier reaction.

2)How can I transport H2 (in game) to other planetary bodies with minimal boil off?

[ABZB]

I have two questions regarding H2 boil off.

1) How do the various space agencies (irl) plan to transport H2 over long distances and avoid losing most of the H2? For instance having an H2 tank to power an NTR on a return trip from Mars. Or taking H2 to another body to use in a sabatier reaction.

2)How can I transport H2 (in game) to other planetary bodies with minimal boil off?

For Mars, one viable plan (such as that of SpaceX, I believe) is to use liquid methane (CH4) as the propellant. Methane is a liquid at around the same temp. as O2 (which is far higher than the temp. for H2) and the boil-off is far less of a problem. (Interestingly, CH4 can also be solidified at a not-much-colder temperature (only about another 20 K less) (still a lot warmer than H2) which would save on space somewhat... but the additional parts needed for that might more than make up for that)

Another major advantage of this is that CH4 and O2 can be easily produced from the Martian atmosphere. The ship would then only need to carry fuel for 1 leg of the trip.

[Scripto23]

For Mars, one viable plan (such as that of SpaceX, I believe) is to use liquid methane (CH4) as the propellant. Methane is a liquid at around the same temp. as O2 (which is far higher than the temp. for H2) and the boil-off is far less of a problem. (Interestingly, CH4 can also be solidified at a not-much-colder temperature (only about another 20 K less) (still a lot warmer than H2) which would save on space somewhat... but the additional parts needed for that might more than make up for that)

Another major advantage of this is that CH4 and O2 can be easily produced from the Martian atmosphere. The ship would then only need to carry fuel for 1 leg of the trip.

Ah but here's the rub, to make CH4/LOx on Mars you need to first ship a few tonnes of H2 all the way to Mars to feed into the reaction (2 H2 + 3 CO2 → CH4 + 2 O2 + 2 CO).

EDIT: from a previous post of Nathan's we have:

loss_rate = defined in tank definition (0.0000000002 for LH2 in a cryo tank)

delta_temp = part_temp - resource_boiling_point

loss_per_second (liters) = tank_maxAmount * loss_rate * delta_temp

So I guess the only thing I can really modify to decrease loss of H2/LOx in game is the temp? Can the thermal fin (with Starwaster's fix) be used for this?

I found this interesting study titled "Space Storage of Liquid Hydrogen and Liquid Oxygen" and this article (PDF) which seems to address my first question in the previous post. Seems like one option is to use boiled-off hydrogen to refrigerate the liquid oxygen tank which can can be used to keep the liquid oxygen from boiling off entirely. Can this be modeled in game?

Edited March 13, 2014 by Scripto23

[Rag3aholik]

Huh. Kinda stumped. Don't see anything obviously wrong in the log.

Can you try loading KSP with *just* the Squad folder and the RealFuels folder in GameData?

Did so. Worked totally fine with no other mods. Guess I'll start pulling them one at a time... see what happens

Edit: loaded it up missing each individually. Same issue occurred each time so it's not connected to a specific mod. Redownlaoded/installed realfuels, same issue. Thoroughly perplexed.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Rag3aholik
New info

[Hodo]

Any word on when RAPIERs and SABREs will have full RF support?

[Shad0wCatcher]

Don't they already run on Hydrogen / HydroLOX?

[Starwaster]

Don't they already run on Hydrogen / HydroLOX?

They can be made to but that's not full RF support.

The RAPIER actually has two engines defined in a way that RF can't deal with right now.

Additionally stock RAPIER uses ModuleEngineFX which RF also cannot deal with.

So you can make RAPIER work with H2 via config files but you won't be able to configure the engine for alternate fuels in the VAB/SPH.

[NathanKell]

Rag3aholik: you said "missing each individually"--have you tried the other way, i.e. *adding* mods back one by one?

SABREs are supported by RF, they just don't have tech level support yet. RAPIERs, not at all, as Starwaster says. I hope to get basic ModuleEnginesFX support in fast, but supporting MultiModeEngines is rather tougher, I think.

[Guest]

Doesn't RF come with it's own engine switcher? Just make sure you can switch effects in-flight and you're set. Enough for rudimentary RAPIER support, and should work on "static" rocket engine configs, too (so that if you change between fuel modes, the exhaust reflects that).

[Spartan125]

For some reason, using the stock engine config, some of the stock engines have blank editors (the boxes that show up when you click on the engines in the action group section).

[Starwaster]

Doesn't RF come with it's own engine switcher? Just make sure you can switch effects in-flight and you're set. Enough for rudimentary RAPIER support, and should work on "static" rocket engine configs, too (so that if you change between fuel modes, the exhaust reflects that).

Uh right... thanks for that.... but it's not about switching engines it's about configuring them in the VAB

[Shad0wCatcher]

Ah my mistake then. I thought the RAPIER behaved exactly like the SABRE did in RF. That's what I get for making an assumption. :/ Thanks for the clarification though!

[Lexx Thai]

Hello everyone! First of all, excuse me for awful English.

Nathan, I think problems of RF's issues in symmetry interaction. If I try to move configured (ie filled) side tanks, it becomes to unfillable (RF shows that) until retraction from launchpad.

Problem appears even on clear installation of KSP. In that case log have some "KeyNotFoundException: The given key was not present in the dictionary" exceptions. On the "main" KSP install (mod heavy), log contains "NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object" entries.

[Lexx Thai]

Oh! double post

Edited March 13, 2014 by Lexx Thai

[ialdabaoth]

So! Now that I have my ModuleManager issues sorted out, I'm back in business making RealFuels tweaks.

While we're waiting for ModuleEnginesFX to get updated, here's a few cfg changes I'd like to recommend:

1. Make the RAPIER use LiquidHydrogen + LiquidOxygen:

@PART[RAPIER]
{


!MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX] {}

!MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX] {}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleEnginesFX
	engineID = AirBreathing
	directThrottleEffectName = power_open
	runningEffectName = running_open
	thrustVectorTransformName = thrustPoint
	exhaustDamage = True
	ignitionThreshold = 0.33
	minThrust = 0
	maxThrust = 190
	heatProduction = 400
	useEngineResponseTime = True
	engineAccelerationSpeed = 0.2
	engineDecelerationSpeed = 0.35
	useVelocityCurve = True
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = LiquidH2
		ratio = 0.55
		DrawGauge = True
	}
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = IntakeAir
		ratio = 0.45
	}
	atmosphereCurve
 	{
		key = 0 1200
		key = 0.3 2500
		key = 1 800
 	}
	velocityCurve
	{
		key = 0 0.5 0 0
		key = 1000 1 0 0
		key = 2000 0.5 0 0
		key = 2200 0 0 0
	}

}
MODULE
{
	name = ModuleEnginesFX
	engineID = ClosedCycle
	runningEffectName = running_closed
	thrustVectorTransformName = thrustPoint
	exhaustDamage = True
	ignitionThreshold = 0.1
	minThrust = 0
	maxThrust = 175
	heatProduction = 650
	fxOffset = 0, 0, 0.25
	PROPELLANT
	{
	 	name = LiquidH2
        	ratio = 0.73
		DrawGauge = True
	}
	PROPELLANT
	{
	 	name = LiquidOxygen
	 	ratio = 0.27
		DrawGauge = True
	}
	atmosphereCurve
 	{
   	 key = 0 465
  	 key = 1 375
 	}

}

}

2. The airplaneTail should hold fuel, and the airplane fuselages and adapters should hold way more fuel than they do:

@PART[mk2Fuselage]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 1000
		type = Fuselage
	}
}

@PART[mk2SpacePlaneAdapter]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 800
		type = Fuselage
	}
}

@PART[mk3Fuselage]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 1600
		type = Fuselage
	}
}

@PART[mk3spacePlaneAdapter]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 1200
		type = Fuselage
	}
}

@PART[airplaneTail]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 800
		type = Fuselage
	}

}

These numbers are based on a cursory visual inspection of the parts.

[NathanKell]

Here is a prerelease for ModuleEnginesFX compatibility. Note it does not work with Multimode engines (the RAPIER) yet, but does work with single-mode engines. However, in the MEC block, make sure you have type = ModuleEnginesFX so MEC knows what to look for.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/brn9mxzvc82x4i2/RealFuels_v4_4_pre2.zip

Note other changes in changelog; in particular, delete the RF-related Stretchy parts from the Stretchy folder, they're now included in RF.

[ialdabaoth]

Oh! I almost forgot to mention - as of April 20th, I will have sufficient time, energy, and hardware to start developing KSP mods again.

NathanKell, I'm EXTREMELY grateful for the work you've done on DRE and RealFuels. If you're willing, I'd like to partner with you to co-develop new versions as soon as my schedule opens up.

[NathanKell]

ialdabaoth, that is awesome, awesome news! I'd dearly love it. Though mucho thanks go to taniwha too--he did most all of the fueltank rewrite for .23 and has been maintaining MFT admirably.