[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Rag3aholik]

Rag3aholik: you said "missing each individually"--have you tried the other way, i.e. *adding* mods back one by one?

SABREs are supported by RF, they just don't have tech level support yet. RAPIERs, not at all, as Starwaster says. I hope to get basic ModuleEnginesFX support in fast, but supporting MultiModeEngines is rather tougher, I think.

I found extra copies of "modulemanager.dll" in certain places as I did this and started deleting them. In the end only one folder was causing issues. Dug in there a bit and found... modulemanager.dll. Deleted it, and huzzah, functioning GUI! Thanks for the help!

[Scripto23]

NathanKell and ialdabaoth teaming up (reteaming up?) to make mods? I don't we can handle the resulting awesomeness.

[drtedastro]

Hold on, its going to get fast, fun and amazing.. Well it is already amazing, it will get amazing'er?

[ialdabaoth]

NathanKell: how much have you looked into ditching ModuleHybridEngine altogether, now that SQUAD has MultiModeEngine?

[Starwaster]

NathanKell: how much have you looked into ditching ModuleHybridEngine altogether, now that SQUAD has MultiModeEngine?

It probably wouldn't be too terrible losing MHE, but before any decision gets made on that, keep in mind that (whether intended or not; it's probably a 'feature') MHE allows switching between more than two modes.

The benefit of that is that you can make LANTR engines with multiple mix ratios. Only the first two configs show up in the editor but when switching modes 'in the field' you could cycle between different mix ratios.

[NathanKell]

Not at all. It can replace ModuleHybridEngines (and indeed probably should), but it can't replace ModuleHybridEngine because the latter allows for > 2 configs.

I'm undecided as to whether to make a new RF module for MultiModeEngine, or add two ModuleEngineConfigs modules with tags, or try to make MEC support multiple modules.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[SpacedInvader]

So I'm brand new to KSP, and that means that naturally I'm already setting out to make the game harder and more immersive. I've landed at RF partly because I like the idea of needing to manage the fuel types for each stage and engine, and partly because it allows me to configure containers for use with TACLS. The problem I'm running into now is that RF seems to have thrown my game balance out of whack towards the easier direction. I read in the first few posts that RF is designed for use with an up-scaled physical environment and since I'm not using RSS just yet (I want to let it get to a proper release state before installing), this means that I needed to also install KIDS and then dial back the multipliers to bring the power back in line with what the game demands from its current state. The problem is that even under these conditions, I'm able to launch into a stable LKO for about 3000m/s DeltaV rather than the 4500m/s that most of the available information describes. After some poking around in KIDS, my hunch is that the extra power is coming from the fact that I also have FAR installed which appears to need its own adjustments to bring deltaV requirements back in line with stock. I'm hoping someone here can confirm this and perhaps provide correct KIDS multipliers to bring performance with RF and FAR existing together back down to where it should be.

Thanks.

[HoneyFox]

NathanKell: how much have you looked into ditching ModuleHybridEngine altogether, now that SQUAD has MultiModeEngine?

The MultiModeEngine is introduced in KSP0.23, which is a simple switcher module that will pick one from two of the ModuleEnginesFX modules and will handle engine switching (aka activate/shutdown the selected/unselected mode).

[HoneyFox]

Not at all. It can replace ModuleHybridEngines (and indeed probably should), but it can't replace ModuleHybridEngine because the latter allows for > 2 configs.

I'm undecided as to whether to make a new RF module for MultiModeEngine, or add two ModuleEngineConfigs modules with tags, or try to make MEC support multiple modules.

EDIT: ninja'd.

Finally the RF will support MEFX soon! Yeeess!

[ialdabaoth]

...looks like I'm going to have a LOT of questions, now that I'm getting back into KSP.

I have a RF/KSP Interstellar question now - KSP Interstellar has a set of thermal fins, which I assume work very differently than the fin I had Nazari1382 make.

Do the KSP Interstellar fins actually cool your ship at all, or do they just convert "waste heat" from KSPI's reactors?

[HoneyFox]

...looks like I'm going to have a LOT of questions, now that I'm getting back into KSP.

I have a RF/KSP Interstellar question now - KSP Interstellar has a set of thermal fins, which I assume work very differently than the fin I had Nazari1382 make.

Do the KSP Interstellar fins actually cool your ship at all, or do they just convert "waste heat" from KSPI's reactors?

Guess that it's the latter one, i.e. its own thermo-dynamics system. Just like what NearFuture deals with its nuclear reactors too.

[ialdabaoth]

So if I remember the mod correctly, if I wanted KSPI's thermal fins to help my cryotanks stay cold, I'd do:

@PART[radiator0]
{
      MODULE
      {
	name = ModuleHeatPump
	heatTransfer = 100
	heatDissipation = 0.05
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
	        rate = 0.025
	}

      }

      MODULE
      {
            name = ModuleAnimateHeat
            ThermalAnim = heatfin
      }
}

@PART[radiator1]
{
      MODULE
      {
	name = ModuleHeatPump
	heatTransfer = 250
	heatDissipation = 0.05
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
	        rate = 0.1
	}

      }

      MODULE
      {
            name = ModuleAnimateHeat
            ThermalAnim = heatfin
      }
}

@PART[radiator2]
{
      MODULE
      {
	name = ModuleHeatPump
	heatTransfer = 600
	heatDissipation = 0.05
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
	        rate = 0.4
	}

      }

      MODULE
      {
            name = ModuleAnimateHeat
            ThermalAnim = heatfin
      }
}

Right?

[Scripto23]

So if I remember the mod correctly, if I wanted KSPI's thermal fins to help my cryotanks stay cold, I'd do:

Right?

I did the same thing you're trying to do with one of the radiators from NearFuturePropulsion.

What you did looks right. This is the important bit:

MODULE
     {
		name = ModuleHeatPump
		heatTransfer = 50
		heatDissipation = 0.05


		RESOURCE
		{
			name = ElectricCharge
			rate = 0.5
		}
	}

[Starwaster]

So if I remember the mod correctly, if I wanted KSPI's thermal fins to help my cryotanks stay cold, I'd do:

@PART[radiator0]
{
      MODULE
      {
	name = ModuleHeatPump
	heatTransfer = 100
	heatDissipation = 0.05
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
	        rate = 0.025
	}

      }

      MODULE
      {
            name = ModuleAnimateHeat
            ThermalAnim = heatfin
      }
}

@PART[radiator1]
{
      MODULE
      {
	name = ModuleHeatPump
	heatTransfer = 250
	heatDissipation = 0.05
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
	        rate = 0.1
	}

      }

      MODULE
      {
            name = ModuleAnimateHeat
            ThermalAnim = heatfin
      }
}

@PART[radiator2]
{
      MODULE
      {
	name = ModuleHeatPump
	heatTransfer = 600
	heatDissipation = 0.05
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
	        rate = 0.4
	}

      }

      MODULE
      {
            name = ModuleAnimateHeat
            ThermalAnim = heatfin
      }
}

Right?

The current implementation of heat pump has some issues. HeatDissipation doesn't do anything. Also it probably won't cool your tanks below H2 boil off either. I have a pull request in for a fix. The changes involve not transferring heat from the tank to the pump because stock thermodynamics mean that KSP will fight to move part of that heat right back into the tank while adding more heat from ambient.

So the change was: not moving heat (configurable) and linking heatDissipation to the stock property but it's hard to find good values that don't break things so its better not to mess with it. You can grab it from my RF fork.

[ialdabaoth]

The current implementation of heat pump has some issues. HeatDissipation doesn't do anything. Also it probably won't cool your tanks below H2 boil off either. I have a pull request in for a fix. The changes involve not transferring heat from the tank to the pump because stock thermodynamics mean that KSP will fight to move part of that heat right back into the tank while adding more heat from ambient.

So the change was: not moving heat (configurable) and linking heatDissipation to the stock property but it's hard to find good values that don't break things so its better not to mess with it. You can grab it from my RF fork.

Yeah, I remember having to deal with the same thing when I first wrote the module. Every time I think about it, I get more and more frustrated with KSP's heat model.

[Scripto23]

Two quick questions.

1) Why are cryogenic tanks lighter than non-cryogenic ones?

2) Since cryogenic tanks are lighter, what is to stop someone from using them in place of regular tanks for all fuel loads?

[Starwaster]

Two quick questions.

1) Why are cryogenic tanks lighter than non-cryogenic ones?

2) Since cryogenic tanks are lighter, what is to stop someone from using them in place of regular tanks for all fuel loads?

IIRC they aren't as sturdy. Lower crash tolerance and or breaking point.

[Camacha]

O my. I just realised that RealFuels mean that I will have to rethink my perfect thrust script. If at all possible, I would like it to work as well with RF as with stock, but that might be a bit troublesome to get to work.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Camacha

[NathanKell]

SpacedInvader: KIDS still doesn't quite work with RF. For now what I suggest you do is apply KIDS "manually"--that is, remove KIDS, and then open RealSettings.cfg (in the RealFuels folder) and for each key = 0 n or key = 1 n line, cut n to 1/3.

i.e.

TLISP0
   {
    key = 0 286
    key = 1 100
   }

becomes

TLISP0
   {
    key = 0 95.3
    key = 1 33.3
   }

That said, how much of a "proper release" do you need for RSS? It's been game-stable for months, and now features the correct textures and heightmaps for Earth and most planets in the solar system. I mean, KSP *itself* is in alpha; don't be dissauded by the ALPHA in the RSS thread title.

HoneyFox: there's a prerelease a page or so back

Here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/brn9mxzvc82x4i2/RealFuels_v4_4_pre2.zip

Scripto23: they should only be lighter than default for cryogenic fuels. They should be heavier for non-cryogenic fuels.

Starwaster: you're thinking of balloon tanks.

Camacha: What does your script do?

[ialdabaoth]

Is there a known bug or mod conflict that causes the ElectricCharge generators on the nuclear engines to stop working?

[NathanKell]

Two known issues.

1. Can't add/remove < 1E-5 units of an ALL_VESSEL resource (it always fails.) This was "added" in 0.23, likely as a fix for the new way jets handle lowering intakeAir.

2. ModuleGenerator is broken, especially under warp.

[ialdabaoth]

Hmm. But even if I put a generator on the nuclearEngine that makes 45 units per second of ElectricCharge, it still produces no ElectricCharge whatsoever, regardless of warp. Both the stock and KSPX engine do this.

[ialdabaoth]

Also, secondarily: have you looked into making configurable engines switch modes via the 'tweakables' menu, the way KSP Interstellar does? Because I think that would be really snappy. (the "tech level" thing is nice, but I think it would be worth ditching in order to get engine mode selection in the tweakable menu working).

[NathanKell]

I haven't looked into it yet, but that sounds totally doable. Just adding an action that's VAB-only that switches to next config.

No idea about the generator issue then. Weird.

[HoneyFox]

I haven't looked into it yet, but that sounds totally doable. Just adding an action that's VAB-only that switches to next config.

No idea about the generator issue then. Weird.

Perhaps generator uses deltaTime while other modules use fixedDeltaTime, or vice versa? I donno if that will bring any trouble...