[1.8+] Real Fuels

[NathanKell]

splooshman: this usually happens when two modules get added to the same tank. Are you sure you have:

*only one (the most recent) version of ModuleManager installed

*Only RF (Not ModularFuelTanks) installed

If problem persists, post player.log

[sploooshman]

splooshman: this usually happens when two modules get added to the same tank. Are you sure you have:

*only one (the most recent) version of ModuleManager installed

*Only RF (Not ModularFuelTanks) installed

If problem persists, post player.log

Thanks NathanKell , I found a rougue second copy of modulemanager in the stretchy tanks folder , command line unzipping of all my mods has no warning of what to put where , it just does what you tell it to do , ok sweet , so I was getting bored of half texture and reduced texture mod , and the half sized earth colour png , but loved the new moon texture as it was pretty bumpy even for RSS , so now ive battled the fonts and ATI fglrx and the million other things , I have a fully loaded RSS setup thats currently sat using 6.3GB of ram and look great on full.

I ****ing swear to **** I need to get my ass to duna and back on RSS. my last hurdle was the boil off while waiting for launch window, I guess ill just have to think bigger, btu first i go visit the new look uber moon again lol

cheers !

[Starwaster]

I ****ing swear to **** I need to get my ass to duna and back on RSS. my last hurdle was the boil off while waiting for launch window, I guess ill just have to think bigger, btu first i go visit the new look uber moon again lol

cheers !

Get your ass to Duna!

[tarkhil]

Maybe I'm dumb and missing something clear; but I'm missing.

I've installed RealFuels and config for stock engines. Since I want just a stock-like experience, I've only changed useRealisticMass to false.

I've tried nuclear engine and it fizzled out all fuel so quick that I thought I've accidently press Space.

Looking in editor, I've found, that LV-N uses up to 227 H2 per second with thrust 60, while LV-909 with throttle 50 uses 20 NMH+21 N2O4=41 per second.

Does my LV-N come with a hole somewhere in pipes? It seems to be just jettisoning fuel.

[Guest]

Nope, it's just that the units are that of volume. H2 is much less dense than MMH+N2O2, meaning you use "more" of it (but really less, because it's the mass that matters).

[tarkhil]

Got it. So, nuclear engines should have HUGE but lightweight fuel tanks...

Thank you!

[Starwaster]

Got it. So, nuclear engines should have HUGE but lightweight fuel tanks...

Thank you!

omg.... someone gets it.... after a year, someone GOT it....

I feel dizzy.... someone get me a chair...

[pingopete]

I've noticed since the recent updates I've lost the ability to add empty tanks? Inputting 0 just removes the tanks? This is only really a problem for me for ECLSS CO2

[NathanKell]

Add a full tank and use tweakables to empty it.

[pingopete]

Aaahhh ok, sorry

[NathanKell]

Why apologize?

[Kitspace]

Hello

I have a few questions regarding the real fuel mod.

Tanks require insulation to carry cryogenic fuels. How do I add insulation to a tank?

How do I know if a tank is insulated?

How do I know what is the right proportion for the fuel and oxidizer for a certain engine?

What is KIDS?

Thank you!

[Starwaster]

Hello

I have a few questions regarding the real fuel mod.

Tanks require insulation to carry cryogenic fuels. How do I add insulation to a tank?

How do I know if a tank is insulated?

How do I know what is the right proportion for the fuel and oxidizer for a certain engine?

What is KIDS?

Thank you!

You don't actually add insulation to the tank. The cryogenic tank is already assumed to be insulated and that is reflected in its lower boiloff rate. (if you look at the tank types in RealTankTypes.cfg you will see this as loss_rate)

There was some talk awhile back about being able to add arbitrary amounts of insulation to tanks which would increase their dry mass and lower boiloff depending on how much insulation you added.

Frankly the way it's implemented now isn't quite realistic but doing it in a realistic fashion requires us doing something about Squad's thermodynamics system, and there's been talk of that too but it hasn't happened. Not yet anyway.

For now, just know that tanks that say they need insulation actually have it and that your fuel loss to temperature is lower than it would be in non-cryo tanks.

[NathanKell]

If you place cryogenic fuel in a regular tank, it will boil off quickly. If you place it in a Cryogenic tank (it will say, in the extra info page, that it's of type Cryogenic--the Jumbo64, for example, is) then it will have insulation and boiloff will be slower.

If you add your engine to your craft, when you edit the tank details in the Action Group Editor GUI, you will see an option "Configure for..." and the engine's ratio. If you have multiple engines, if you hover over each button you will get a tooltip stating which engines use that mixture.

KIDS is Kerbal Isp Difficulty Scalar. It's a mod by ferram4 for scaling the specific impulses of engines such that they can be made to require more or less fuel.

[AndreyATGB]

From what I understand, talking about Procedural Parts here, the Service Module is cryogenic and pressurized so it doesn't boil off at all? Is it only possible to not boil off by using the thermal fin thing?

In descending order, best for cryogenic fuels are Service>Cryogenic>Normal right? What's the disadvantage of balloon tanks, they're lighter and hold more, the info says they're more fragile but that doesn't really matter much I find.

[Rabble]

You can ignore those three sheets. The RT one just has some of my Remotetech2 math; Misc is just miscellaneous calculations; and ObjDump is for ease in dumping members of some PQS-related objects. Delete all three sheets if you like.

Easier how? I'm interested!

I had planned to do that (tech requirements for CONFIGs, and for resources to appear on the list) but got sidetracked. I'll put it back to the head of the pile, unless you have a burning desire to add it yourself

1. That's what I had figured just double checking.

2. As far as easier goes. I was thinking that that config spreadsheet should support easy configuration of Engines, Fuel types, and tanks. So for right now I'm just making it easier to read and cleaning out the deadends/scratchpad calcs I find. Then I'll be adding support for easily configured fuels & tanks

3. I am interested but it's going to come after the engine cfg.xls. My programming experience is limited to SQL and overly-complicated spreadsheets for work. So it depends on what it'll require (Haven't looked into it yet).

[NathanKell]

2. It does support configuration (if not easy configuration) of engines and fuel types. It has existing support for tanks that would be easy to turn into a new sheet where you specified various fields and it created the MM patch, like engines.

3. Ok, it shouldn't take me more than an hour or so; I'll just do it. Been meaning to for a while anyway.

[Rabble]

2. It does support configuration (if not easy configuration) of engines and fuel types. It has existing support for tanks that would be easy to turn into a new sheet where you specified various fields and it created the MM patch, like engines.

I did see that. I was just adjusting it to be a bit easier and adding that sheet.

QQ: Is there any reason you have the mix ratio set per engine rather than referenced from the 'mixture' table?

Edited May 12, 2014 by Rabble

[NathanKell]

Because mixture is per engine. There is no "mixture ratio" for a given fuel mix; that's determined by your engine.

See for instance US or Russian engines. Heck, the J-2 was rated for (and used during flight!) two different mixture ratios of LH2 and LOX!

[Kitspace]

So, regarding KIDS, if I use the recommended one third multipliers for the stock Kerbin, what will I get?

Will it affect the Isp of my engines, or just tweak the fuel consumption, so I would need realistic amount of fuel for given engines running for a given period of time?

If my stage has a pack of different engines, whether they use the same fuel or not, they most likely use different ratios, how do I fill the tank for each of them to work for a given period of time, or, just for all of them to work simultaneously?

Features say, that engines can be configured to use different ratios or even fuels during the same flight.

How do I do that?

As far as I know, and it was also mentioned here, in reality, there are such configs, for example, the top stage of the Saturn V used different mixtures for its first burn and its TLI burn, didn't it?

Some mods have options to scale them to Kerbin size. What does it mean? What settings do I need to use with such mods, real fuel, and KIDS to get realistic Earth performance and fuel consumption with Kerbin gravity and DeltaV requirements?

Is there any way to scale the solar system up to real world size, while keeping it kerbal, without changing the planet textures and maps, their orbits and so on?

If I use RSS, with scaled Kerbin config, it still uses some sort of its own textures, which look really weird for me, and the actual topographic map of Kerbin gets changed. Also the space center screen gets affected somehow, for example I can not click on the buildings properly sometimes...

Where should I ask about this problem?

What mods and part packs are supported by the real fuel? Can I make vanilla parts supported? Will they also get realistic performance, or it is better to get rid of them at all?

UPDATE:

I have installed the RF mod, FAR mod, and KIDS, and I have a very big problem.

With the Thrust Varies with Isp option enabled in the menu, the less Isp multiplier I use, the more power I get.

With multipliers set to half or less, I get my kerbals killed by huge excecive G-force.

What could possibly happen and what could I do?

Edited May 12, 2014 by Kitspace

[NathanKell]

If you use the recommended 1/3 multiplier, you will require real-life-sized rockets on stock Kerbin.

Isp is a measure of fuel consumption. Literally, the number of seconds one pound of fuel will provide one pound of thrust. So, not sure what you're asking.

Your stage probably shouldn't be using lots of different engines, and if so they should have separate tanks. I mean, if you're using a giant engine/set of engines and a couple tiny verniers, that's fine (configure for the vast majority mixture), but mixing and matching is weird. Anyway, if you *really* want to feed engines with different ratios on the same tank, you'll need to do some math, math RF won't do for you (i.e. multiply the mixture ratios by the ratio of thrusts).

Some engines can have their configuration switched in flight, yes. The SABRE is a good example, as is the J-2 (RedAV8R is adding the alternative mixture).

If you use RSS to get the real solar system, you should not use KIDS. Real Fuels has real engine performance and tank mass ratio, so it's a perfect fit for a real life-size solar system.

If you have questions about a mod, you should ask on its thread. For example, ask questions about RSS on the RSS thread.

The rescaled Kerbin config does not use any new textures. Also, what do you mean by "scaling the solar system up to real world size...without changing orbits"? That's mutually exclusive, unless I misunderstand. Anyway, this is a discsussion for the RSS thread; this is a thread about the mod Real Fuels.

The readme should describe what parts are supported. Certainly stock parts are! Adding RF support to more parts is not hard; see the FAQ for how to add to tanks, and the link to Calcs.xls for how to add to engines.

If you have a question about KIDS, ask in the KIDS thread. Heck, I didn't even make KIDS.

[Kitspace]

Are real life rockets for stock Kerbin actually supposed to be larger or smaller than the stock ones?

I got really confused with all that...

So, what other options do I need to set up in KIDS for it to work properly with the real fuel mod?

Do I need to enable or disable the realistic Isp handling?

The J-2 engine is the real example I was talking about...

Sorry, what is RedAV8R?

Real fuel already supports all the stock tanks, how do I make it support stock engines?

I mean scaling the whole thing up without changing anything else.

I have lots of different annoying problems with config files for RSS.

The rescaled Kerbin makes textures look really weird and there are some water coloured islands, for example, at least for me, no idea, what I am doing wrong.

[Starwaster]

Are real life rockets for stock Kerbin actually supposed to be larger or smaller than the stock ones?

I got really confused with all that...

They should be smaller than their real life counterparts and have lessened thrust. Otherwise they are overpowered for stock. Case in point: American Pack's Orion is half size at 5m diameter and reduced thrust. not sure how much reduction. I forget.

[NathanKell]

Kerbal rockets are anywhere from five to ten times lighter (for the same payload) than real rockets. Kerbal rockets have payload fractions from 10-18 percent or so, right? Real rockets have payload fractions from 0.5-5% (A low-tech all-solid launcher like the Scout could do about 0.5% payload fraction; an all-hydrolox launcher could probably do even better than 5%).

KIDS has problems; it isn't fully RF compatible yet (ferram's been busy with other things). Your best bet is to edit Isps directly. What exactly do you want to use KIDS to do?

As the OP says, you need to download an engine config pack. The second post in this thread contains links to the engine packs available.

I have answered your RSS question in the RSS thread, where it belongs.

[HoneyFox]

Hi, Nathan. I come to ask a ... huh... strange question:

Is there anyway I can do to tweak some values in the RF (either public or non-public, I can use Reflection anyway ) during flight to change an engine's max thrust (Vac)? I haven't dug into your codes deeply enough so I just want a faster approach to the answer by asking you directly.

EDIT: I just saw a "ChangeThrust" function whose comment says it's for StretchySRB. Wonder if this can be used during another PartModule's OnStart() to change normal liquid fuel engines' max thrust...

Edited May 13, 2014 by HoneyFox