[1.8+] Real Fuels

[flack]

On 11/8/2018 at 2:51 AM, Vas said:

Shame this doesn't fully work with 1.5.1, engine flames are invisible.

Also a shame this is unrealistic in terms of Engines, as each engine type gets a max of one ignition which makes them unplayable except as an initial launch.  No multiple maneuvers once you get to space, its all one shot one go and then you have to throw away your engine.  Real engines don't do that, so it can't be called Real.  This just needlessly complicates the game in my opinion, I can't figure out what to use and what to do because every engine has multiple configs and every tank has multiple configs and it confuses the crap out of me having 30 different types of fuels...

Just thought I'd provide my thoughts.

 

Just as a point of proof, the engine limitations you impose that are very very very wrong I'll link some things below with a bit of explanation.

The ISS has to reboost its altitude many times a year, 10-12 times a year, and from what I heard from a friend is that the ship that docks for a while has 20-30 ignitions for this. This graph will show you that the ISS does in fact lift its altitude nearly once a month.

First stage engines only have one ignition, while second stage engines require the rocket to be in acceleration to ignite.  But thats just for engines that send you off into orbit, every single engine in your mod has one ignition, a max of 2 is what I've seen.  That makes it totally unusable and worthless.  How do you perform a maneuver once you get to space?  You can't shut down your engine or it permanently dies.  You can't time warp to the other side of the planet to boost your PE either because that'd also shut your engine down.  A worthless engine.

Even my propane heater can self ignite, and does so 2-5 times a day during winter, thats up to 600 times a year, its many years old so thats at least 6,000 times.  Sure, its not a ship thruster but it is an ignition.

Unfortunately, I can't exactly find nasa grade information here to prove my point on the realism aspect of this but from what I can see with almost everything researched for the level 2 science facility, all engines in your mod max at 1 to 2 ignitions making them unusable.

I will likely only see posts that mention me or quote me.

Your post makes no sense what so ever, are you really comparing a rocket engine with a propane heater? Go read a little before claiming its unrealistic my friend . This mod is working perfectly fine, no point going around the forum claiming its unplayable, its just clearly not made for you until learn more about rocket and want the realism that comes with it. This mod is made to complicate the game, not the other way around.
 

[strudo76]

Hey there

Would it make sense to use Real Fuel and Real Engines in a RSS game, but without installing the whole RO package? I'm sort of rolling my own RO setup, wanting to have some aspects but not wanting others. The only config options from CKAN are RO or stockalike, but I assume stockalike won't cut it, and as I said previously, I don't want the entire RO package. Are there certain files from RO I can use to get the engine configs? Or would I expect the engine packages included in RO to have their own individual RF support?

Thanks

[Starwaster]

2 hours ago, strudo76 said:

Hey there

Would it make sense to use Real Fuel and Real Engines in a RSS game, but without installing the whole RO package? I'm sort of rolling my own RO setup, wanting to have some aspects but not wanting others. The only config options from CKAN are RO or stockalike, but I assume stockalike won't cut it, and as I said previously, I don't want the entire RO package. Are there certain files from RO I can use to get the engine configs? Or would I expect the engine packages included in RO to have their own individual RF support?

Thanks

Certainly it's possible. That's more or less what I do, although I'm only using a 10x scaled Kerbol system rather than RSS these days. (Hey! I have to LIVE in the solar system, I play KSP to get away from it...)

Mostly my engines are from the stockalike engine pack with some RO engine configs for parts packs like SSTU and some engine configs I crafted myself. It works well enough.

[panarchist]

On 12/30/2013 at 12:13 AM, NathanKell said:

Engine Configs

Download and install ONLY ONE.

"Stockalike" engine configs updated by Raptor831 based off work by Chestburster.

@NathanKell - If you have a few minutes, could you please update this link in the second post on page one of the thread to the updated URL for the Stockalike configs? 

Pretty sure that original link was one of the forum threads that died in the last forumpocalypse. Thanks!

[SpacedInvader]

So I've read back through the thread beyond the release date of 1.5 / 1.5.1 and I've not really seen anything substantive about compatibility with the most recent version of KSP. Is it compatible at all, and if not, is an update in the works? This is one of my "Must have or I won't play KSP mods", so I'm kinda wanting to be sure I'll be able to use it.

@Starwaster

EDIT: Sorry for the tag, but I have concerns that the thread is pretty dead so it rarely gets checked

Edited December 2, 2018 by SpacedInvader

[Starwaster]

3 hours ago, SpacedInvader said:

So I've read back through the thread beyond the release date of 1.5 / 1.5.1 and I've not really seen anything substantive about compatibility with the most recent version of KSP. Is it compatible at all, and if not, is an update in the works? This is one of my "Must have or I won't play KSP mods", so I'm kinda wanting to be sure I'll be able to use it.

@Starwaster

EDIT: Sorry for the tag, but I have concerns that the thread is pretty dead so it rarely gets checked

It's going to happen.

[SpacedInvader]

18 hours ago, Starwaster said:

It's going to happen.

Ok, I'll go ahead and wait patiently

[Commissar]

seems to work fine, only problem i've found is that making something a "service module" where it's supposed to be pressurized... does nothing. still get unstable fuel all the time.

[SpacedInvader]

38 minutes ago, Commissar said:

seems to work fine, only problem i've found is that making something a "service module" where it's supposed to be pressurized... does nothing. still get unstable fuel all the time.

That seems like a pretty big issue to me considering the reasons to use the "service module" setting and what you lose without it.

[Starwaster]

2 hours ago, Commissar said:

seems to work fine, only problem i've found is that making something a "service module" where it's supposed to be pressurized... does nothing. still get unstable fuel all the time.

 

2 hours ago, SpacedInvader said:

That seems like a pretty big issue to me considering the reasons to use the "service module" setting and what you lose without it.

'highly pressurized' does NOT mean 'automagically stable'. Stable / not-stable only refers to ullage control. If it is unstable then that means that the tank contents are sloshing around and clinging to the walls in a blobby mess and it cannot be guaranteed that the engines won't end up sucking vapor. Such tanks must have their contents 'settled' against the aft bulkhead of the tank. (or whichever end faces the direction the rocket has to fire in).

Pressurized is a requirement for pressure fed engines that don't have the capability to pump the fuel from the tank and it must therefore be forced into the engine under high pressure. You may possibly be confusing this for bladder tanks which by nature do not have ullage. Those are the kind of tanks used by RCS. They are not represented by any RF tank type except in an abstract sense where it is assumed that such tanks are present for RCS parts but are not otherwise relevant to the discussion.

Bottom line, TL;DR there is no problem here except that planning and proper understanding is required by the players.  

[Commissar]

1 minute ago, Starwaster said:

 

'highly pressurized' does NOT mean 'automagically stable'. Stable / not-stable only refers to ullage control. If it is unstable then that means that the tank contents are sloshing around and clinging to the walls in a blobby mess and it cannot be guaranteed that the engines won't end up sucking vapor. Such tanks must have their contents 'settled' against the aft bulkhead of the tank. (or whichever end faces the direction the rocket has to fire in).

Pressurized is a requirement for pressure fed engines that don't have the capability to pump the fuel from the tank and it must therefore be forced into the engine under high pressure. You may possibly be confusing this for bladder tanks which by nature do not have ullage. Those are the kind of tanks used by RCS. They are not represented by any RF tank type except in an abstract sense where it is assumed that such tanks are present for RCS parts but are not otherwise relevant to the discussion.

Bottom line, TL;DR there is no problem here except that planning and proper understanding is required by the players.  

true. i think part of my problem is when MJ doesn't compensate. and has a bad trajectory, running into my station, lol. but it is what it is.

[Starwaster]

Just now, Commissar said:

true. i think part of my problem is when MJ doesn't compensate. and has a bad trajectory, running into my station, lol. but it is what it is.

Yeah, MJ could do better about compensating... especially MJ for KSP 1.3.1

It's SUPPOSED to have been fixed in more recent versions.

It WAS totally fixed (by me) a long time ago but someone 'fixed' my fix and it's been unstable ever since. (git it? unstable? Talking about unstable tanks? ah never mind. Forget it...)

[Commissar]

Just now, Starwaster said:

Yeah, MJ could do better about compensating... especially MJ for KSP 1.3.1 

It's SUPPOSED to have been fixed in more recent versions.

It WAS totally fixed (by me) a long time ago but someone 'fixed' my fix and it's been unstable ever since. (git it? unstable? Talking about unstable tanks? ah never mind. Forget it...)

it used to be good, i remember, but i haven't really played since 1.2ish. now im on 1.5.1

[SpacedInvader]

2 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

Yeah, MJ could do better about compensating... especially MJ for KSP 1.3.1

It's SUPPOSED to have been fixed in more recent versions.

It WAS totally fixed (by me) a long time ago but someone 'fixed' my fix and it's been unstable ever since. (git it? unstable? Talking about unstable tanks? ah never mind. Forget it...)

LOL... I got it...

Are you saying that at one point you actually had MJ fixed to account for the changes that RF makes like fuel stability and limited restarts? I got so tired of dealing with the fact that MJ couldn't handle the restart limitations that I literally patched all of my ascent engines for infinite restarts...

[Starwaster]

1 minute ago, Commissar said:

it used to be good, i remember, but i haven't really played since 1.2ish. now im on 1.5.1

And you have it enabled in the Utilities menu? If so and it still doesn't stabilize your ullage then bug errr I forget who you have to bug...  I think he goes by Lamont but I'm not sure which Lamont he is... and he might not actually BE Lamont on the forums.... so I'm not sure who you need to bug. I gave up on it myself after my code got ripped up.

[Commissar]

Just now, Starwaster said:

And you have it enabled in the Utilities menu? If so and it still doesn't stabilize your ullage then bug errr I forget who you have to bug...  I think he goes by Lamont but I'm not sure which Lamont he is... and he might not actually BE Lamont on the forums.... so I'm not sure who you need to bug. I gave up on it myself after my code got ripped up. 

uh, it sorta does. it tries the engine, and then when it doesn't start, uses RCS. i usually use a 24 restart for my service stage, but its still annoying, especially when MJ decides it's prudent to intercept to rendezvous at close approach at 100m/s. i know my way around github too, so that's ok.

[Starwaster]

Just now, SpacedInvader said:

LOL... I got it...

Are you saying that at one point you actually had MJ fixed to account for the changes that RF makes like fuel stability and limited restarts? I got so tired of dealing with the fact that MJ couldn't handle the restart limitations that I literally patched all of my ascent engines for infinite restarts...

Yeah, I had it fixed where it would stabilize ullage pretty consistently and it worked for about a week until someone else refactored the whole thing and it regressed.

Same here for restarts... unless it's an engine that just shouldn't restart, or really has limited restarts (F1 / J2 respectively) then I just patch it. 

I think the problem there might be that MJ wants to throttle but it throttles too low to the point of shutting down.... 

1 minute ago, Commissar said:

uh, it sorta does. it tries the engine, and then when it doesn't start, uses RCS. i usually use a 24 restart for my service stage, but its still annoying, especially when MJ decides it's prudent to intercept to rendezvous at close approach at 100m/s. i know my way around github too, so that's ok.

See, it's supposed to do the RCS FIRST so that ullage is stable and THEN ignite the engine...

[Commissar]

Just now, Starwaster said:

Yeah, I had it fixed where it would stabilize ullage pretty consistently and it worked for about a week until someone else refactored the whole thing and it regressed.

Same here for restarts... unless it's an engine that just shouldn't restart, or really has limited restarts (F1 / J2 respectively) then I just patch it. 

I think the problem there might be that MJ wants to throttle but it throttles too low to the point of shutting down....  

it has a function to keep miniumum 5% throttle, but that doesn't work if you end your gravity turn in atmosphere

[SpacedInvader]

3 hours ago, Starwaster said:

Yeah, I had it fixed where it would stabilize ullage pretty consistently and it worked for about a week until someone else refactored the whole thing and it regressed.

Same here for restarts... unless it's an engine that just shouldn't restart, or really has limited restarts (F1 / J2 respectively) then I just patch it. 

I think the problem there might be that MJ wants to throttle but it throttles too low to the point of shutting down.... 

See, it's supposed to do the RCS FIRST so that ullage is stable and THEN ignite the engine...

The issue is that most KSP gravity turns (for me at least) end before the top of the atmosphere so after MECO, apoapse begins to decay. MJ working the way it does, it then immediately fires up the engine again assuming its got infinite relights to bump it back up to the target altitude and then 3 seconds later you've gone through 20 relights without having a second to react. Throttling probably does come into play, but to a lesser degree because I've almost never seen MJ try to reduce throttle to the point that the engines cut out before the target apoapse is reached. Ideally, MJ should have the ability to prevent engine shutdown before a certain altitude and then to either recalculate the throttle needed to arrive at MECO after leaving the atmosphere, or alternatively allow a setting for target periapse in the launch window so that once apoapse is reached, the rocket would be pitched to raise the periapse which would likely complete after departing the atmosphere. In lieu of those settings, I've been using the Gravity Turn mod which allows you to set up a proper ascent to orbit without a huge amount of coasting, though I still have removed limited relights on ascent engines specifically because MJ will still end up needing 3-5 relights somehow.

EDIT: And before you say it, I've tried many many times to build a rocket / ascent profile that doesn't have some amount of coasting through the atmosphere after MECO and I've just never been able to do it.

Edited December 7, 2018 by SpacedInvader

[Commissar]

5 minutes ago, SpacedInvader said:

The issue is that most KSP gravity turns (for me at least) end before the top of the atmosphere so after MECO, apoapse begins to decay. MJ working the way it does, it then immediately fires up the engine again assuming its got infinite relights to bump it back up to the target altitude and then 3 seconds later you've gone through 20 relights without having a second to react. Throttling probably does come into play, but to a lesser degree because I've almost never seen MJ try to reduce throttle to the point that the engines cut out before the target apoapse is reached. Ideally, MJ should have the ability to prevent engine shutdown before a certain altitude and then to either recalculate the throttle needed to arrive at MECO after leaving the atmosphere, or alternatively allow a setting for target periapse in the launch window so that once apoapse is reached, the rocket would be pitched to raise the periapse which would likely complete after departing the atmosphere. In lieu of those settings, I've been using the Gravity Turn mod which allows you to set up a proper ascent to orbit without a huge amount of coasting, though I still have removed limited relights on ascent engines specifically because MJ will still end up needing 3-5 relights somehow.

EDIT: And before you say it, I've tried many many times to build a rocket / ascent profile that doesn't have some amount of coasting through the atmosphere after MECO and I've just never been able to do it.

you got too much TWR. and the problem is exoatmosphere, on final stages, etc

[SpacedInvader]

1 minute ago, Commissar said:

you got too much TWR. and the problem is exoatmosphere, on final stages, etc

Thats just it, I've tweaked and tweaked and I've gotten it to where I just barely make it off the pad and just barely make it into orbit and still that very last few seconds of TWR for each stage really just kicks the vehicle in the pants which leads to some coasting near the top of the atmosphere.

[Commissar]

Just now, SpacedInvader said:

Thats just it, I've tweaked and tweaked and I've gotten it to where I just barely make it off the pad and just barely make it into orbit and still that very last few seconds of TWR for each stage really just kicks the vehicle in the pants which leads to some coasting near the top of the atmosphere.

try higher orbits

[SpacedInvader]

4 minutes ago, Commissar said:

try higher orbits

Its a thought, but not always the best option. What I'd really like is to know how to build rockets so that I could have a much more consistent acceleration across the ascent rather than the peaks caused by having stages that start with low TWR and end up spiking before staging. I've tried setting MJ to limit TWR, which helps to a degree, but the lack of significant throttling on a lot of RF engines kinda limits the usefulness of that.

[Commissar]

1 minute ago, SpacedInvader said:

Its a thought, but not always the best option. What I'd really like is to know how to build rockets so that I could have a much more consistent acceleration across the ascent rather than the peaks caused by having stages that start with low TWR and end up spiking before staging. I've tried setting MJ to limit TWR, which helps to a degree, but the lack of significant throttling on a lot of RF engines kinda limits the usefulness of that.

you can go down to 5%. i usually set 10k max Pa unless it's a weird rocket where i need less

[SpacedInvader]

Just now, Commissar said:

you can go down to 5%. i usually set 10k max Pa unless it's a weird rocket where i need less

5% throttle yes, but I could swear I remember reading somewhere along the line that the engine configs for most first stage engines don't allow them to go below about 30% thrust.