[1.8+] Real Fuels

NathanKell · April 18, 2014

ialdabaoth: Sounds neat! Yes, I'll absolutely merge it in.

One concern though: are you adding any way of setting tank.amount by tweakable, or are you using stock tweakables? Because the stock system is *not* fine-grained enough; it seems to mostly work in 20% increments.

ialdabaoth · April 18, 2014

ialdabaoth: Sounds neat! Yes, I'll absolutely merge it in.
One concern though: are you adding any way of setting tank.amount by tweakable, or are you using stock tweakables? Because the stock system is *not* fine-grained enough; it seems to mostly work in 20% increments.

Ugh... that's... ugh.

I'd REALLY like to just use stock tweakable. In any case, how often do you need to fine-tune it? I'm always either launching 'full' or 'empty'.

AndreyATGB · April 18, 2014

I would be OK with the stock system, only time I even changed those was to add some RCS fuel to a bigger tank anyway. If making it default isn't ok then having the option to remove the GUI and use tweakables would be nice (in the cfg for example).

ialdabaoth · April 19, 2014

Oh! Also: I've been doing a lot of config editing lately, in prep for my "Real Kerbol System" release. As I do so, I do some research.

It occurs to me that my original changes for the nuclear engines were exactly wrong.

A nuclear engine should have an "always on" ModuleGenerator that produces a prodigious amount of power - somewhere on the order of 1500 Watts for the Squad engine (yeah, that's ElectricCharge = 1500). The ModuleAlternator, on the other hand, should produce NEGATIVE Wattage, peaking at -1500 at full thrust.

Starwaster · April 19, 2014

Oh! Also: I've been doing a lot of config editing lately, in prep for my "Real Kerbol System" release. As I do so, I do some research.
It occurs to me that my original changes for the nuclear engines were exactly wrong.
A nuclear engine should have an "always on" ModuleGenerator that produces a prodigious amount of power - somewhere on the order of 1500 Watts for the Squad engine (yeah, that's ElectricCharge = 1500). The ModuleAlternator, on the other hand, should produce NEGATIVE Wattage, peaking at -1500 at full thrust.

Why would it produce negative wattage? It neither consumes electricity nor would it stop producing it. Even at full thrust there's an awful lot of heat and it's got to go somewhere. The whole point of bimodals is to put that excess heat to use rather than just radiate it away.

Edit: In fact, the only time it might not produce electricity is prior to its first firing.

NathanKell · April 19, 2014

Also, that'd be 1.5 ElectricCharge.

Starwaster · April 19, 2014

Also, that'd be 1.5 ElectricCharge.

With RO you'd want 10-75 KWe

ialdabaoth · April 20, 2014

Why would it produce negative wattage? It neither consumes electricity nor would it stop producing it. Even at full thrust there's an awful lot of heat and it's got to go somewhere. The whole point of bimodals is to put that excess heat to use rather than just radiate it away.
Edit: In fact, the only time it might not produce electricity is prior to its first firing.

Well, a lot of that heat is going into the fuel, instead of into the power generator. But yeah, there still should be a lot of usable heat remaining.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, that'd be 1.5 ElectricCharge.

Really? ElectricCharge is kiloJoules?

NathanKell · April 20, 2014

It is in RF/RO/etc. You can make it whatever you want for RealKerbin, but battery sizes get a bit unwieldy if you use something smaller than a kJ (on the other hand, draw rates get hard if you use anything larger--and indeed 10mW becomes the least you can draw, IIRC, with 1EC = 1kJ).

ialdabaoth · April 20, 2014

hmm, looking at the math, I think kJ is the correct value. And yeah, 10 - 75 EC seems right for the engines (10 for the Squad engine and 75 for the KSPX one)

Starwaster · April 20, 2014

Crap! It looks like I only fixed the generator issue on one of the engines in Squad_NTR_modularEngines.cfg

Nobody said anything about it still being broken

Starwaster · April 21, 2014

If anyone wants this, I have created some Real Fuels configs for the new parts in .23.5. The engines are made with the help of Chestburster's .xls file found here.
Engine Config here.
This is a stock-alike config, masses are adjusted to fit the stock thrusts. In addition to the mods from the original .xls, I've added FTmN engines, the SXT pack, and of course the ARM parts. Each mod uses slightly different fuel ratios and some use different types, just to change things up a bit. Also, all engines are fully throttle-able. I use this with useRealisticMass = false and it works well with stock Kerbin and FAR. Can't say about using them with RO though, so YMMV. There's also a Fuel Tank config for the new fuel tanks in the .zip file for good measure.
If anyone wants the .xls I have, let me know and I'll put it up somewhere.

Raptor831: I went ahead and just used your config (with credit). Hope that's ok. (I forgot about this).
Regarding RftS: I hope to have it done reasonably soon, apologies for the delay.

The engines in the ARM pack use ModuleEnginesFX, but Raptor's configs use ModuleEngines for those parts

plausse · April 21, 2014

I notitced that the SXT by Lack is included in the "Stock" engines pack. But the fueltanks don't have any configs.. So I rolled some in a MM file. Should be alright, if someone is keen..

@PART[SXTSaturnV1]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 307200
		type = Default
	}
}

@PART[SXTSaturnV2]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 164345
		type = Default
	}
}

@PART[SXTSaturnV3]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 48980
		type = Cryogenic
	}
}

@PART[SXTKDBTsar1]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 76679
		type = Default
	}
}

@PART[SXTKDBTsar2]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 112690
		type = Default
	}
}

@PART[SXTKDBTsar3]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 147510
		type = Default
	}
}

@PART[SXT16FuelTank]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 8000
		type = Cryogenic
	}
}

@PART[SXT32FuelTank]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 16000
		type = Cryogenic
	}
}

@PART[SXT64FuelTank]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 32000
		type = Cryogenic
	}
}

@PART[SXTBalloon]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 15200
		type = CryogenicBalloon
	}
}

@PART[SXTBalloonGold]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 15200
		type = CryogenicBalloon
	}
}

@PART[SXTBalloonGoldB]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 12310
		type = CryogenicBalloon
	}
}

@PART[SXT375mCAdaptor]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 500
		type = ServiceModule
	}
}

@PART[SXT375mA]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 108000
		type = Default
	}
}

@PART[SXT375mB]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 54000
		type = Default
	}
}

@PART[SXT375mC]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 27000
		type = Default
	}
}

Also did one for the Kommit tanks; did one small tank as SM, one small tank as default, the others as balloon...

@PART[oct_2p5m_halffuel]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	//!RESOURCE[XenonGas] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 3500
		type = Default
	}
}

@PART[oct_2p5m_halfmonoprop]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	//!RESOURCE[XenonGas] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 4000
		type = ServiceModule
	}
}

@PART[oct_2p5m_1fuel]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	//!RESOURCE[XenonGas] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 10000
		type = Balloon
	}
}

@PART[oct_2p5m_3fuel]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	//!RESOURCE[XenonGas] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 30000
		type = Balloon
	}
}

Hope it make sense at all..

Edited April 21, 2014 by plausse

NathanKell · April 21, 2014

Starwaster: Doesn't actually matter, since the engineconfig will always be applied OnStart anyway. It just has the wrong stats in the editor partslist.

Plausse: looks good to me! Will add. Also, you don't need the commented out lines; that's a holdover from when they needed to be uncommented, but I never got around to deleting them after I commented them.

Ooh, except Saturn V stage 2 should also be Cryo (unless it had a noticeably higher dry mass fraction than S-IVB, which I don't recall).

ialdabaoth · April 21, 2014

hrm. So I've been thinking really hard about how to do a Hall Effect RCS system, or really any generic bipropellant RCS. Is there a way to tell if an RCS thruster is currently firing?

NathanKell · April 21, 2014

Protip: rewrite ModuleRCS.

plausse · April 21, 2014

Plausse: looks good to me! Will add. Also, you don't need the commented out lines; that's a holdover from when they needed to be uncommented, but I never got around to deleting them after I commented them.
Ooh, except Saturn V stage 2 should also be Cryo (unless it had a noticeably higher dry mass fraction than S-IVB, which I don't recall).

My bad! Totally missed that.. Makes sense when you give it a shadow of a thought...

ialdabaoth · April 21, 2014

Protip: rewrite ModuleRCS.

Yup. Gonna do it. I'll send you a copy of ModuleRCSFX: ModuleRCS {...} when I'm done.

NathanKell · April 21, 2014

Excellent news! Been trying to either (a) motivate myself or ( convince someone else to do that for *months*. :]

Here's ZRM's rewritten ModuleRCS for reference. https://bitbucket.org/dylanede/kerbcom-avionics/src/d4f0f57a8ef50337a2f60e05392634a8ce38916a/CRCS/MyRCSModule.cs?at=master

NOTE IT IS NON-DERIVATIVES ETC.

Got your RF code; will test.

ialdabaoth · April 21, 2014

when you say it's non-derivatives, do you mean that ZRM won't allow others to modify and redistribute his? I.e., I have to rewrite it myself for a third time, because neither Squad nor ZRM will open their code?

NathanKell · April 21, 2014

Correct. And you can't write a derivative of his code either; it's open to the extent you can see how stuff's done, not so you can copy or base off of it.

That said his code neither supports the new EFFECTS standard (predates it), nor does it support multiple propellants. I would suggest, for the latter, copying how ModuleEngines[FX] supports PROPELLANT nodes.

Starwaster · April 21, 2014

when you say it's non-derivatives, do you mean that ZRM won't allow others to modify and redistribute his? I.e., I have to rewrite it myself for a third time, because neither Squad nor ZRM will open their code?

Looks like

Edited April 22, 2014 by Starwaster
omg, why did I multiquote three people???

ialdabaoth · April 21, 2014

Correct. And you can't write a derivative of his code either; it's open to the extent you can see how stuff's done, not so you can copy or base off of it.
That said his code neither supports the new EFFECTS standard (predates it), nor does it support multiple propellants. I would suggest, for the latter, copying how ModuleEngines[FX] supports PROPELLANT nodes.

That's actually precisely what I was intending to do, hence ModuleRCSFX.

- propellant will be replaced with PROPELLANT {} nodes

- EFFECTS system will be used

NathanKell · April 21, 2014

That's what I thought you meant, just wanted to be clear that ZRM's does neither.

HoneyFox · April 22, 2014

Hmm... I sense the need to add support to MRFX in EI soon.

Anyway, is that really needed? it seems too hard-core if even RCS thrusters need ullage before ignitions...

EDIT: No. Please ignore this post completely. That's too insane.

Edited April 22, 2014 by HoneyFox

[1.8+] Real Fuels

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