[1.8+] Real Fuels

[White Owl]

Ah, so the exhaust residue isn't as toxic as the fuel. That makes a lot of sense, thanks.

[Northstar1989]

@Regex

Thanks for adding in the Novapunch2 tanks!

However, I won't be able to update until the new KSP-Interstellar/RealFuels integration config is added in. Dreadicon thinks the current version is as ready as it's going to be (except for some issues with ammonia fuel-density/ conversion, which he wants to put off until later), although neither of us have had the chance to test it in action AFAIK... I'm also trying to bug him to add a send a fix for the Meth/LOX engine's TWR/ISP over to Raptor86 in the "Stockalike" engine config, although he seems reluctant to do any more (and I don't have the first clue how to create a MM engine patch myself...)

Anyways, I hope you and NathanKell don't mind the status-report.

Also, I found some more tanks that need fixing for RealFuels- these ones are in Firespitter mod, and have been around for quite a while actually:

The stock volume for the Oxidizer Tank might seem a little high, but as I understand it, it's supposed to be highly-compressed.

Regards,

Northstar

[jrandom]

Wha... lead ballast? We have lead ballast now?? This changes everything!

[Starwaster]

Wha... lead ballast? We have lead ballast now?? This changes everything!

Not if you miss the runway and careen into the ocean because of the extra mass.....

No, wait... that changes everything too.

[Kolago]

I am a bit confused. I have two types of Liquid Hydrogen in the game and engines burning the first or the second type.

GameData\RealFuels\Resources\ResourcesFuel.cfg

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = LqdHydrogen
  density = 0.00007085
  unitCost = 0.00018421
  flowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH
  transfer = PUMP
  isTweakable = True
}

GameData\CommunityResourcePack\CommonResources.cfg

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
	name = LiquidHydrogen // General propellant, used for high thrust electric engines
	density = 0.0004
	unitCost = 0.5
	flowMode = STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH
	transfer = PUMP
	isTweakable = true
}

I like to convert one into the other, but this module uses up LqdHydrogen but doesn't put out any LiquidHydrogen.

Whats my error?

MODULE
{
	name = USI_Converter
	converterName = Hydrogen Converter
	conversionRate = 5
	inputResources = LqdHydrogen, 0.0219907427
	outputResources = LiquidHydrogen, 0.0219907427
}

[Guest]

I am a bit confused. I have two types of Liquid Hydrogen in the game and engines burning the first or the second type.

The Community Resource Pack is incompatible with Real Fuels because CRP is not, in any way, shape, or form, realistic. This does not mean that it's bad, it just means the two mods will not ever work together as either intends because they attempt to do entirely different things.

Choose one or the other.

E: Also, the question regarding the USI Converter part should be directed to the ?Karbonite? thread (I think that's where it's from).

[Kolago]

Yea, the parts are from USI FTT. Maybe an MM config in can replace the hydrogen resources in FTT tanks and engines and thats it.

[Guest]

Yea, the parts are from USI FTT. Maybe an MM config in can replace the hydrogen resources in FTT tanks and engines and thats it.

That would definitely work, just replace LiquidHydrogen with LqdHydrogen, at a glance.

[NathanKell]

Community Resource Pack is a "kerbal" mod. It adds fun stuff for gameplay. Real Fuels is a realism mod. It adds real fuels at real densities and real performance. You're not going to have all that fun a time trying to make both work at the same time. Not sure what's wrong with that CFG snippit, though.

[Kolago]

Thats right, but I like to collect parts from here and there for cool space ships. For RF, RSS and RO the FTT engines specs must be changed with MM.

[Kolago]

My basic idea was to use water for storage of LOX and LH in a more compact form and no boil of. Than convert it with electricity into LOX and LH before using it as a propellant in my space ship.

[Kolago]

By the way... what about an reactor/engine that uses water, split it to hydrogen and oxygen and than fuse the hydrogen into helium using the energy to split more hydrogen and oxygen and accelerate with the remaining helium and oxygen as a support mass. Ok... far future... wrong thread...

[dlrk]

Nathan, Regex:

I understood CRP as an ISRU mod that CAN be used with realfuels, since they don't overlap except for oxygen and water, and that can be fixed with an MM patch, or CFG changes. Am I misunderstanding something? If yes, can ISRU/UKS'/Interstellar be used with RealFuels?

[Lilienthal]

I am playing RO with contracts. Which is, I know, not supported and therefore not very balanced. Anyway, I am having fun so far .

One thing that was IMHO far off and probably easy to fix is the price of Electricity. Considering the high number of electricity units in RO, the current 0.05 Funds/unit seem to be very high. Charging a pod is almost expensive as the pod itself.

My suggestion is to lower it to 0.0005 or 0.

[Guest]

Nathan, Regex:

I understood CRP as an ISRU mod that CAN be used with realfuels, since they don't overlap except for oxygen and water, and that can be fixed with an MM patch, or CFG changes. Am I misunderstanding something? If yes, can ISRU/UKS'/Interstellar be used with RealFuels?

They (CRP and RF) should theoretically work together but neither was designed for that and you'll end up with potential resource overlap/collision. If you can provide a ModuleManager config to integrate the two, bonus, but the ISRU from Interstellar and Karbonite (or Kethane, for that matter) is not realistic. Well, you could probably make a case for Interstellar, but the two magical fairie poop resource mods don't fit in with Real Fuels in the slightest.

E: I mean, if you're using Real Fuels and want ISRU, you might as well look for a realistic ISRU mod. Since none is out there (that I know of), think about maybe taking that on yourself by creating ModuleManager configs that override Kethane or Karbonite/Interstellar, rather than try to integrate a stockalike resource mod with a realistic resource mod.

Edited October 22, 2014 by regex

[NathanKell]

Sorry, that makes sense. If you convert it to use real resources in a real resource chain at real rates, then yes it makes sense to use with RF.

[dlrk]

I already don't use Karbonite or Kethane, and I probably will wind up patching together a config for Interstellar + RF

- - - Updated - - -

Interstellar is already somewhat realistic, so I think most changes there would just be minor tweaks to conversions

[Starwaster]

What's the REAL issue with CRP and RF?

Because it sounds more and more like the reservations are ideological rather than there being technical obstacles preventing them being used together.

Leave people to play in their sandboxes as they like and if you don't agree with them wanting to integrate RF with CRP then just say 'I don't want to help with that' and be done with it.

[Guest]

What's the REAL issue with CRP and RF?

Potential resource conflicts. That's really it, and that's what we've consistently stressed, aside from pointing out ideological differences in the mods and the "silliness" of using them both together, which really shouldn't get anyone's panties in a bunch because this is a thread/mod about Real Fuels as opposed to magical fairie poop being processed into everything.

Because it sounds more and more like the reservations are ideological rather than there being technical obstacles preventing them being used together.

Leave people to play in their sandboxes as they like and if you don't agree with them wanting to integrate RF with CRP then just say 'I don't want to help with that' and be done with it.

Are you addressing me? I (or NathanKell, for that matter) haven't said anything telling people how to play in their little sandboxes. We may be discouraging them from doing it because the mods don't really fit together and any support will take that into account, and we have certainly pointed people towards doing their own work as opposed to simply telling them outright "NO". I don't, however, see any of the ISRU mods being integrated into RF in the form of scripts unless the implementation is realistic (and not just "could be done, maybe"). Anyway, such a discussion is better kept out of this thread.

[NathanKell]

There is a dated Kethane config that eardrom (???) I think drew up for RF. I have no problem with ISRU, and I don't think it's cheating; I would love to see a complex ISRU adjunct to RF (although I would probably never play it, having not gotten out of LEO in ages...)

But while I wouldn't phrase it quite the way regex does in his inimitable style, there is something a bit funky about on the one hand playing with Real Fuels, and on the other mining stuff that can be turned into any of them. (Thus my remark about an ISRU chain).

[dlrk]

Nathan,

Using Interstellar, Karbonite/Kethane-powered converters(both editable in CFGs), you can harvest water, carbon dioxide, and various others, and then convert that LOX, LH2, methane. ORS and Karbonite are extensible enough, and the underlying resource maps are good enough, that a realistic resource chain can be developed fairly easily. I'm probably going to give it a shot when it comes around in my current play through.

[NathanKell]

dlrk: awesome! Kudos to you, and I'll follow with interest

[Autochton]

@dlrk, if it's any interest to you, I wrote up some thoughts on how to do a semi-realistic ISRU mod with some, to me, reasonable abstractions in it. It of course has the caveat that nothing ever came of it and I don't have the time to work on it - but you're welcome to take a look at this, and use any material from it you find useful. Drop me a PM if you have questions. If nothing else, I thought the name I came up with was clever.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Autochton
Removed link, I think I'll study this mod idea some more.

[Starman4308]

Bug report: for duplicated tanks, I can add infinite fuel. Instead of getting an option to remove all fuel tanks, I can click the same fuel mix repeatedly and just add fuel forever.

OS: Linux x64

Reproduced using only RealFuels 8.1 and RF Stockalike 1.0.3

Reproduction steps: take any craft, plunk down a tank, duplicate it (potentially repeatedly and recursively: I was duplicating 1 to get 2, 2 to get 4, 4 to get 8, etc), add an engine, and then start adding fuel to the tanks.

Log file

Possibly relevant mods: RealFuels 8.1, RF Stockalike 1.0.3, FAR 0.14.3.2, Engine Ignitor 3.4.1.1, DRE 6.2.1, Kerbal Joint Reinforcement 2.4.4, MechJeb 2.4.0, Procedural Parts 0.9.19, Procedural Fairings 3.10, RSS 8.1.2 (6.4x config 1.1.1)

Probably not relevant: Trajectories, TAC Fuel Balancer and Life Support, Chatterer, Kerbal Alarm Clock, NavHud, RCS BuildAid, Sane Strategies, Stage Recovery, Zero Point fairings

Definitely not the cause: KW Rocketry (I had experienced this prior to installing KW Rocketry)

[Northstar1989]

They (CRP and RF) should theoretically work together but neither was designed for that and you'll end up with potential resource overlap/collision. If you can provide a ModuleManager config to integrate the two, bonus, but the ISRU from Interstellar and Karbonite (or Kethane, for that matter) is not realistic. Well, you could probably make a case for Interstellar, but the two magical fairie poop resource mods don't fit in with Real Fuels in the slightest.

E: I mean, if you're using Real Fuels and want ISRU, you might as well look for a realistic ISRU mod. Since none is out there (that I know of), think about maybe taking that on yourself by creating ModuleManager configs that override Kethane or Karbonite/Interstellar, rather than try to integrate a stockalike resource mod with a realistic resource mod.

What on EARTH are you talking about? The ISRU system in KSP-Interstellar is *strictly* realistic. Every single harvestable resource of conversion in Interstellar is carefully based on real-world analogs.

The *only* thing you could argue is unrealistic is that there is just a single ISRU refinery part that "does it all", and even that FracalUK is looking at eventually fixing (through making the ISRU refinery load-out tweakable in the VAB/SPH). Not to mention, all the necessary machinery *could* fit inside the 2.5 meter (Kerbaal-scale, so 5 meters in real life) refinery part used- lightweight Sabatier Reactors smaller than the size of a mini-fridge have already been developed for use in space (on the ISS, where one is *already* installed and operational), for instance.

The ISRU reactions in KSP-Interstellar are:

Sabatier Reaction (CO2 + 4 H2 --> CH4 + 2 H2O, already on the ISS and operational)

Water Electrolysis (electrolysis units have been installed on the ISS and operational since it was first built)

Antraquinone Process (relatively simple reaction- no reason it wouldn't work in space)

The harvesting options are:

Centrifuging Uranium from Kerbin/Eve/Laythe seawater (oceans are MAJOR uranium reservoir IRL, no reason this wouldn't work on another planet/moon with a water ocean, if there was one)

Harvesting liquid water or water-ice (NASA is already working on systems to harvest water-ice from the Moon and Mars)

Harvesting Ammonia from Eve's oceans (simple matter of centrifuging or distilling, but no use for this in real life)

Harvesting LH2 from Jool's clouds (atmospheric accumulators to scoop Oxygen from Earth were designed, but never built, over 30 years ago, same concept with Jupiter and hydrogen...)

Harvesting LOX from Kerbin/Laythe's atmosphere (designs to do exactly this from the edge of Earth's atmosphere were created over 30 years ago)

Harvesting antimatter particles trapped in the magnetic fields of certain planets/moons (this is something that has been studied in real life with Earth or Jupiter/Saturn- would be perfectly feasible if we had better ways to launch stuff to orbit and store that antimatter long-term)

Harvesting land-based Uranium/Thorium deposits (probably the *only* unrealistic option- as these deposits are very rarely shallow in real life)

You can also breed Tritium from Lithium, and He-3 from Tritium's natural radioactive decay in KSP-Interstellar. The rates of these reactions and decays are *precisely* based on real life, though- and in fact breeding Tritium from Lithium is how we got the majority of our current Tritium stockpiles...

So, the equipment you'd need to do ALL of this:

A (small) centrifuge

A distiller/condenser unit

An atmospheric scoop (this is actually a separate part in KSP-Interstellar)

A Sabatier Reactor

A Anthaquinone Process Reactor

An electrolysis unit

A drill (for harvesting water-ice and Uranium/Thorium)

A melting unit (for melting/separating water-ice)

That's a rather short list, and the 7 pieces off that list found in the KSP-Interstellar refinery (which does not have an atmospheric scoop) *COULD* fit in a multi-ton 5-meter diameter refinery in real life (not to mention KSP-Interstellar also has a 3.75 meter variant of the refinery which is even heavier- and would equate to a 7.5-meter refinery in real life...) In fact, if ANYTHING, the KSP-Interstellar refinery is too large/heavy for a Kerbal-scale version of the real-life equipment, considering the *real* size/weight of a Sabatier is less than that of a mini-fridge, and some variants of equipment being worked on for harvesting water-ice on the Moon using microwaves and sublimation/condensation directly from the regolith are only *slightly* larger than a mini-fridge.

In fact, having seen pictures of laboratory versions some of this equipment (and not even the miniaturized-versions being developed for use in space), you could fit all this in a laboratory the size of a coat-closet (having extensive lab experience, it's surprising how much equipment you can cram into a tiny space), which is smaller than the size of a 5-meter diameter ISRU refinery... (remember, KSP parts are 50% real-world scale)

The *other* ISRU mods are definitely unrealistic, as they have one resource to "do it all", but not Interstellar. There's not a single reaction or harvesting option in there that isn't carefully based on real-world science.

Regards,

Northstar

Edited October 25, 2014 by Northstar1989