What is the purpose of hiding the tech tree?

[WhiteWeasel]

Just curious, what benefits do we gain by hiding the levels of the tech tree until the one adjacent to it has be researched? If you're a new player, installed a mod with career support or otherwise do not have it memorised it's somewhat hard to plan or look for what parts you want to research next.

[BenHR]

Maybe it's just that, to make you actually look in every direction, instead of just going 'OOH, nuclear rocket! I NEED THAT!' and putting all your effort thataways.

[Captain Sierra]

Maybe it's just that, to make you actually look in every direction, instead of just going 'OOH, nuclear rocket! I NEED THAT!' and putting all your effort thataways.

The above makes good sense assuming you have the interest of familiarizing newer players with the parts. For veterans, it's a fun or annoying hunt for their most used parts, depending on the individual.

[WhiteWeasel]

Maybe it's just that, to make you actually look in every direction, instead of just going 'OOH, nuclear rocket! I NEED THAT!' and putting all your effort thataways.

-It works only once.

-Unless you have the whole tech tree memorized it's annoying to hunt for certain parts for every other player and mod user

-When has any other game tech tree done this so new players explore all the techs?

-There are things called prerequisite techs

-Hey you want to learn the game? Too bad you're going to get an easter egg hunt, lets hope whatever part you've been looking for is the one right after the part you are going to dump 300 science on.

-This isn't starcraft, what's wrong with rushing? Additionally, properly designed tech trees of this nature should advance fastest when built fairly evenly because opening other techs first will allow for parts that can help you get the one you want.

Edited January 3, 2014 by WhiteWeasel

[Stargate525]

Maybe it's just that, to make you actually look in every direction, instead of just going 'OOH, nuclear rocket! I NEED THAT!' and putting all your effort thataways.

Except that's how a lot of technology is born:

-OOH, flying bird! I want to do that!

-OOH, wings! I NEED THAT!

-OOH, light materials! I NEED THAT!

I mean... that's a lot of times how new things are made. You want to do something and then develop the tech to make it happen. What a hidden tech tree is now is the opposite. It's 'this is where we're at, how can we futz around with what we already have?' This makes sense for some of the nodes; like the smaller probes and larger fuel tanks.

Maybe reveal the skeleton of the tech tree; the ones that unlock completely new parts, and relegate the 'variations' (smaller probe bodies, more structural bits, the skipper/mainsail [whichever comes second] to hidden offshoots? That lets you chart a general course (I want these shiny nuclear engines to get to Duna), while still get the surprise of hidden nodes (oh neat, now I can get a bigger main rocket too!).

[technicalfool]

Master of Orion 2 (anybody remember that?) didn't give you the whole tree at once. All you knew the first time playing through is a choice of three items in each field. When you research your chosen item in that field, the next "level" would appear and you would have three more items to pick one from.

True, it only works until you've memorised the tree, but I guess it gives a little mystery to the game for new players.

And now I have the urge to destroy the Antaran homeworld with a bunch of hyper-advanced, plasma-torpedo-wielding scout ships, just to be perverse.

[Superfluous J]

I'm truly not opinionated about the issue enough to really form a decent argument, but I like it this way. My first time through though I learned pretty much were everything I like is, so it doesn't mean much now. However, it was fun trying to guess what to unlock to get something I wanted.

[WhiteWeasel]

Okay I don't mean to come off as snide, and frankly it is a nit picky thing. KSP's isn't that big or complicated as say, endless spaces' tech tree. Shown below is about half of one of the four braches of the tree. It would make a lot of sense to see what your getting with a tree that big in a 4X.

Even so is it that really that beneficial to hide ours?

Edited January 3, 2014 by WhiteWeasel

[Superfluous J]

Even so is it that really that beneficial to hide ours?

The question I was answering was "Would it be beneficial to reveal it at the start?" and I personally think no. I also think the matter is pretty trivial so you obviously have a stronger opinion on this than I do.

[6.forty]

When has any other game tech tree done this so new players explore all the techs?

I believe the majority of them, although maybe not for that particular reason.

You want a game with a tech tree that'll really make you mad? Sword of the Stars. Not only does it hide what you can't immediately research, but most techs may not unlock anyway. You may or may not be able to research Gravitron Beams. You get to find out after you research Meson Beams... which you may or may not be able to research.

Hiding the tech tree isn't a bad thing. Just because you know the atomic rocket is in the game doesn't mean the KSC R&D Department should automatically know that too.

[Amram]

that may be true, but you at least do always know whats down those lines. You know that after this energy weapon, is another energy weapon, and its better than this one. SotS's tech tree is blind only in the sense that you don't know what is missing, not what is present. Even as a new player, I never sat back, looked at the set of entry level stuff and asked my self, now what do I buy to rule the galaxy later? i always knew what I wanted to achieve down the line, and the tech tree made it quite clear where i'd find it, if it were really there this time through. it also made me want what was behind it, because I knew exactly what sort of thing i would find behind it.

Sure we know there are more engines behind the engines, but are they better, or just different? What random requirement is needed for unlocking this other new tech we can reach but can't seem to click on now?

A mistep in KSP's tech progression is enormously more expensive in terms of player investment than any game i've ever played, so when you make a less than ideal choice, its not a case of meh, whatever, its a case of dammit, now I have a broken keyboard to replace. The less skilled you are as a player, the more this mistep hurts, because its that much harder for you to get tech. it took you a lot of time, to achieve an uncertain amount of performance from your operation of your craft to perform your plan, to get an unknown amount of science. Once finished, you spend the points. As a new player, you'd have to ask yourself, will I ever get more science than that? For all you know thats the best you'll ever see, you may have gotten lucky. or the beginner's science luck/distribution may have been expended, you just don't know. Seriously, who here expects a relatively new player to have 1000 points on mission two? How about 300 points? Orbit? Successful launch even? We need to stop judging everything by how it affects us, we who can dock and built multi lander craft that can return from Eve, there are players who fail to achieve orbit on a daily basis.

KSP doesn't even let you plan for the future of your agency, its not apparent where anything is by what you have or where you got it. Where do you find the landing gear? Its behind science, duh, where else would you put it?

First you research basic rocketry. Er what? research parts for upgoer 2 so I can land my planes tomorrow? mkay...

Then you research parachutes. Dammit, Jim! Im an aircraft engineer, not a seamstress, I need WHEELS, not fabric!

Then you research science tech, and you get a rover wheel. Your first hint or wheels to come, but its a rover wheel, not aircraft gear, and its under science, rovers are for science, path still not clear. Why aren't we working on those aircraft techs for aircraft parts?

Then you get your landing gear.

How is that clear from the beginning? What other related tech did we get while doing this? Was anything related to anything else we got? Is anything a natural progression from what you had to what you got?

Most games I have ever played so far, have had one thing in common. If you want aircraft related parts, you research aircraft related techs. If you want better energy weapons, keep working on the energy weapon techs. if you want improved range, you work on engine efficiency or fuel capacity. Need more staff, improve logistics. Etc, you know what you want, its clear what you need, go get it.

On your first game in, good luck with that. Might as well spin a wheel and buy what it picks, because you're planning will be that poor despite attempts otherwise.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Amram

[Superfluous J]

This isn't a problem with the nodes not showing, it's a problem with the logistics of the placement of the parts in the tree. Nobody will (well, this is the Internet. I'm sure somebody will) argue that point.

They made the tech tree to be unmoddable. Within an hour of the release of 0.22, someone had a mod that changed the tech tree. Nobody thinks every piece is placed logically. I personally don't understand why you can build everything to make a plane work in one tech node EXCEPT landing gear. I wholeheartedly expect the parts and nodes to be moved around until they're at least somewhat logical, and at that point seeing the tree won't matter because it WILL be possible to guess where something is going to be.

[ziogatto]

Well hiding the tech tree does have a very good point for it. Do you know what technology NASA will use in 2100? There you have it...

[edwardc]

A possible solution to this is to break the tech tree up into categories.

If I'm doing research on something, I should hopefully know what the heck I'm aiming for. I have a goal don't I? It's not a case of, "Hmm, let's do some research. What have I found? Oh look! It's a hair curler!" Scientists only do research with a goal in mind.

You could have the fuel tank line where the tanks get bigger and bigger with a side line for miniaturization.

Wings in their own mini tree, engines in another.

You might think that you could then just focus on the engines and tanks but the exponential cost will get you.

By breaking the trees up like this you have to seriously adjust the costs.

You could then also consider hiding what the next item. "Would you like to spend another 300 points researching new fuel tanks?" instead of the current "Would you like to buy the blueprints for...?"

Reason? When you start research you don't quite know what you are going to get, you know what area you are researching, just not quite to what extent you'll succeed.

[technicalfool]

I believe the majority of them, although maybe not for that particular reason.

You want a game with a tech tree that'll really make you mad? Sword of the Stars. Not only does it hide what you can't immediately research, but most techs may not unlock anyway. You may or may not be able to research Gravitron Beams. You get to find out after you research Meson Beams... which you may or may not be able to research.

Hah, this is exactly what Master of Orion 2 does. The only way you can research all items is to either pick "Creative" as a species option when you start the game (in which case you get all three choices out of the field each time, rather than just the one you selected), or to get really good at spying and hope the other guys research what you want for you. Oh, or to bomb planets into subjugation and outright steal their tech.

Made in 1993, still an awesome game to this day. Just don't buy Master of Orion 3. It's as disappointing as the Matrix sequels.

[WhiteWeasel]

I was also wondering, is it possible to lock out some parts for prerequisite tech? For instance you research Specialized Electrics and get the Z-4k, but can't get an RTG until you have researched the nuclear tech? Not a rock solid example, but it could be used to help with the logistics of it.

[Queeg]

Right now, I'd like the tech tree to be fully viewable right at the beginning of the game.

But the more I think about it, I think that's pretty much because parts are all over the place - sometimes, without a logical connection.

I want to be able to see the whole tree, because as a new player I want to have a vague clue where I'm heading (in terms of tech).

However, I agree the tree should be hidden from a gameplay point of view. But for that to happen, the tech tree needs to make sense.

More than that, someone who isn't familiar with the tech tree in detail should be able to guess the consequences of picking one tree -vs- another. Not as someone pointed out earlier, find that they can't actually put wheels on their plane.

Other examples: MK16-XL parachutes are in the Rocketry tree. MK25 parachutes are in the science tree.

The PB-Ion engine requires Stability and Survivability, but not General Rocketry.

Maybe the naming of the categories need tweaking. Maybe the layout of the trees. I don't know. But right now, it doesn't feel right.

[Atoning Unifex]

Master of Orion 2 (anybody remember that?) didn't give you the whole tree at once. All you knew the first time playing through is a choice of three items in each field. When you research your chosen item in that field, the next "level" would appear and you would have three more items to pick one from.

That's not entirely true, you could select the research field headings to get a new display showing all future tech for that field. As for Moo 3 - I actually quite liked it, just was a bit weird to figure out what was going on sometimes!

In KSP I'm not bothered either way. All parts are available and visible in sandbox so hiding what parts are coming up in career mode seems to be pointless. I do find that unless i pick the correct nodes to research it can be tricky to progress further - which has already been said, and I agree that it's down to research balancing. Whether the parts are hidden or not players will soon memorise what is where, will put it into a wiki and it will make hiding things pointless.

I also have said before that I'd love to see several research categories and a more linear approach to research rather than an ever widening tree, to control research progress a bit better, rather than allowing people to cherry pick the best stuff all the time. A single category for each of the part types (Pods, control, propulsion etc) might be good, possibly separate categories for space places too.