We know mods exist

[Philoman]

Hi I'm about to make a suggestion which is a bit contrary to this whole threat. But still some part of me just needs to get this out (I'm having a rough day)

When I decide to go visit the forums the subforums, I always catch myself entering the general subforum and then the suggestion subforum. The reason for this is I love to read about where the game is heading and what to expect in updates - or at least what the community wants in those updates. I know devnote tuesdays, but I can't wait a week to hear about the devs trying not to reveal too much.

However, my little problem here is that people, whom I undoubtedly believe are just trying to help, instantly replies new proposals by recommending a mod or two. We've got 4 subforums that are nothing but dedicated to add-ons so wouldn't it be natural to look there if you interested in mods?

My ideal of the suggestion forum is that, since my impression is some like it stock, that the suggestions are met with constructive dissent. In this way we try to point out even closer how we want it and the devs will therefore have to "guess" less. If we can see potential problems about implementing something then we might save ourselves an update.

So that's it.. I just complained about other guys to keep the forum to stock game related issues, while making a suggestion to the forum itself.

[Traches]

Some threads, like this one, are so far outside the realm of what KSP will ever be that the only way the suggestion will exist in game is as a mod. "There's a mod that does that" is a more polite and helpful response than "No, that's not what the game is meant to be."

[Rowsdower]

Hi, Philoman. Would you mind clearing up the suggestion at hand?

[Philoman]

the proposals in link were on the not to suggest list and there aren't really much more to be done in order to prevent that from happening. I must admit I suggested one thing myself when I just got here without reading the list.

I understand that some things are perhaps just too big or complex to implement. Here I'm thinking about the reality/scientific aspects. For instance implementing that the shape of the nozzle affects the thrust and stability. This would add a whole new aspect to staging. But again I fear it would be too complicated. That's why I will wait with a suggestion like this if it ever will be suitable for ksp.

What I'm calling for is the absence of that immediate "refusal". Maybe something is too big and complex, but why not share it anyways. It could be that someone could spot a way to simplify it or maybe just some parts of the suggestion could be used you never know. In the end I'm just excited about the ksp community and want to get the best out of it.

[Guest]

I, too, have seen some posters who respond with "There's a mod for that" rather than discuss the merits of the suggestion within the stock game. This should be avoided if at all possible in this particular subforum.

[Capt Snuggler]

I know what you mean. when some one comes on here and suggests some kind of space plane part, and then gets told "download the B9aerospace", that's not really helpful. (even if it is an excellent mod)

of course this applies loads of suggestions because there is a mod for everything and we all know it. people make suggestions here because they feel something should be in the stock game and they ether want support or community input to help develop the idea and maybe get the devs attention.

when you suggest something that you are excited about and have put thought in to, and get "there's a mod for that" as a response, it's a bit of a buzz kill.

[Specialist290]

I'll admit that I've personally fallen into the "Here's a mod that does what you're asking for" trap without further discussion from time to time, but most of the time (for myself at least; can't speak for others, of course) I haven't meant it as a rebuff to their idea, but more as a suggestion that until the idea is confirmed / officially rejected, there is something that the OP in question might want to take a look at in the meantime.

That said, I'll definitely take into account how it might sound to someone who doesn't know my motives offhand in the future.

[Philoman]

I haven't meant it as a rebuff to their idea

I get what you mean and as i tried to point out I'm sure that people are just trying to help

[Guest]

I think I understand what Philoman is suggesting. It's important for many users here to be all-stock with KSP because it allows them to more accurately compare their gameplay experiences here on the forums. However, many of those same people would like to see the same benefits given by mods such as Kerbal Alarm Clock or Kerbal Engineer in the stock game. When Philoman,or others, suggest something to this effect and then receives "install such and such mod" as a reply, it takes away some of the thunder of said suggestion. Maybe that's it, or maybe I'm talking just to hear my keys rattle.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Otis

[MR4Y]

I agree with what the OP is saying. "There's a mod for that." is the second most used excuse to deviate from idea discussions. The first one is "The game still is in alpha."

It seems that some KSP veterans are somewhat resilient into even trying to embrace new ideas or discussions. Even if some agree, it's easier to use either excuse than to argument further.

EDIT- Also, you HAVE to remind that some suggestions are in the "Do Not Suggest" list by protocol, even if the suggestion is similar, but different in context and application. I forgot that, but a post in this subforum reminded me of that.

Edited January 10, 2014 by MR4Y

[Javster]

Yes, I just use mods as an interim until the stuff is implemented. And if it isn't, I just keep the mod

[Traches]

I, too, have seen some posters who respond with "There's a mod for that" rather than discuss the merits of the suggestion within the stock game. This should be avoided if at all possible in this particular subforum.

I'll agree with that. I'm guilty of almost always giving "There's a mod for that, it's pretty sweet you should check it out here[/url]!" in an attempt to be helpful, but I usually try to also discuss the idea and what it would mean for the game.

[allmappedout]

-snip-

Just to chime in with further what Specialist was saying - it's not necessarily a binary either/or. Mods fill a gap until the features are (/if they are) implemented into the stock game. The idea that people like to play stock is fine, but if they want a feature in the game and it's already there, why be dogmatic about it? Installing a mod doesn't invalidate a warranty, it doesn't make you a worse player, it certainly doesn't ruin your achievements that you have done.

Mods fill the gaps that the stock game still has. As of 1.0, a lot of mods will have no use any more - this is to be expected. Until then, embrace the fact that there's a huge amount of really talented guys who have already had a similar idea to you, and have implemented it, and just ENJOY it! Your idea was clearly a good one if someone has gone through the trouble to make a mod for it!

So, instead of getting upset that people suggest mods, put some shades on and realise that other people think your idea is already really cool

[Nuke]

at the end of the day squad is going to make the game they want to make the way they want to make it. i really dont think this forum matters a whole lot. they might peek in to some of the more busy threads, or use the contents of the board to get feedback about features they recently added to the game (science for example). the issues brought up by the op is really just this board trying to police itself in lieu of actual intervention from squad (the do not suggest list being the exception).

i know the 'theres a mod for that *link*' type posts can be annoying, especially when its a feature that really should be in the game (*cough* texturecompression *cough*). but sometime such a post makes me aware of a mod that i was not previously aware and those are useful. if you are going to suggest a mod at least participate in the discussion about the idea first. dont use it as an excuse to pimp your favorite mods, adding nothing more to the discussion.

the whole stock vs mods debate is kind of laughable in my opinion. i play stock till im bored, then i play mods till im bored, then i play something else while i wait for the next version. if you got something to prove, go play orbiter. thing i like most about ksp is its one of the first games to make space games with realistic physics fun, and so i play it for fun, and that means mods.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Nuke

[Themohawkninja]

It used to be against the rules to just say "there's a mod for that", but I guess they don't enforce that anymore.

[Guest]

So, instead of getting upset that people suggest mods, put some shades on and realise that other people think your idea is already really cool

The main issue I have, and I think OP might be thinking this as well, is when someone just comes in and says "There's a mod for this: <link>" and goes away without discussion. It comes off as very rude and dismissive of the idea as a whole. A better way to approach that would be to offer discussion about the topic and mention the mod, and things you like about their implementation, and possibly how OP's suggestion could be better or would be worse. Keep it in context of this particular subforum ("Suggestions and Development Discussion").

[Kasuha]

Let's not pretend anything. This forum is mostly to give players a place to vent their ideas because they'll have the feeling that they did all they could for it. Absolute majority of what's here will not get implemented.

Current situation is that half of the WNTS list is based on "there's a mod for it already". I still have bitter feelings whenever I remember my suggestion for landing camera getting locked right away because "there's a mod for it". I would not wonder if I was asking for something complicated or way off the game theme but landing? Come on, landing is part of the core game and proper support for it should be also part of the game.

I am not playing with mods for a reason. Scott Manley is making a video series including mods and even today he's not able to run on 0.23 all the mods he started with on 0.22. I don't want to get used to features which will suddenly disappear from the game just because the game went on and the feature is no longer compatible with it.

I mean, things that make sense in the game and were not explicitly refused by developers should be left to be suggested, even if they were suggested number of times and there's a mod for it. Because if nothing else it allows people to have the feeling they did their best for it. And it maybe also shows developers level of player interest in the feature for the core game.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Kasuha