Science Points for Returning Craft in Apollo-Style Missions

[Xavven]

Hey, everyone! In my latest career mode game I decided to go with a mission style that is fairly similar to an "Apollo Style Mission" (Munar Orbital Rendezvous). I have a separate Munar lander and Trans-Munar command/service module, except I took it a step further and built a separately launched re-entry vehicle for returning the crew from LKO, such that the CSM and lander stay in LKO and can be reused for future missions after orbital refueling.

Now, if you build a direct-ascent style mission whereby your actual Mun lander comes all the way back to Kerbin, you get science point for "recovering a ship from Mun's surface" and from "recovering a ship from low Mun orbit." But in my case where I use this separate ferry craft to re-enter Kerbin (transferring the science experiments and surface samples via EVA), that ferry craft never went to the Mun, and so I only get points for "recovering a craft from low Kerbin orbit" or whatever.

This unfortunately encourages you to build direct-ascent rockets. I don't want these unrealistic all-in-one designs where my Mun lander has parachutes for Kerbin re-entry, and uses the black MK-1 Command Pod (with its poor cockpit visibility) because the Landing Can says it is unable to survive atmospheric re-entry. Although I know re-entry destruction is not implemented yet, role playing is part of the fun. Could I suggest giving points for "safely returning a Kerbal from xxx's surface/orbit" instead of tying it to the craft that did the orbiting and/or landing? For unmanned probes you could award points for returning the guidance unit since these obviously don't swap from lander to CSM, etc. like Kerbalnauts do. What do you think?

[deadshot462]

I agree. Maybe require additional "storage" parts to be added to the main return pod to make you have to bring extra room/weight to carry the science points from a separate lander.

[Dunbaratu]

All science points should be made to be transferrable between craft so that this sort of thing works better. That's my opinion.

[bonyetty]

All science points should be made to be transferrable between craft so that this sort of thing works better. That's my opinion.

I think that science can be taken from science parts and placed into command pods. Click on a Kerbal when next to a science part or pod and you have the option to take science then get back into the pod, or another pod. You can then discard the science part/s and still return to kerban with all the science you have obtained on the flight. Correct me if I am wrong but this ability was added in 0.23.

[RoboRay]

All science points should be made to be transferrable between craft so that this sort of thing works better. That's my opinion.

You already can. EVA, click the experiment or pod, choose Take Data.

[rdfox]

Personally, I disagree with that. The whole point of the science points for "vehicle that returned from *insert situation here*" is the engineers getting to examine the vehicle after it's recovered, to see how it performed on the trip. If you leave it in Munar orbit, the engineers can't examine the vehicle itself, just the telemetry data.

What might be cool is the ability to remove a relatively small part to carry home for analysis, like what Apollo 12 did with the camera from Surveyor 3. That could allow you to bring at least some of the Science points back, but those points should be for returning the vehicle for analysis.

[Dunbaratu]

You already can. EVA, click the experiment or pod, choose Take Data.

Ah. Another feature I didn't know existed. I understand that they don't want to write the tutorials until the changes are done but sometimes it gets a bit frustrating that a lot of the UI is a matter of trial and error.

[acc]

if you want points for return a vehicle from X to kerbin, just do it. that's the objective to get this points. because your other vehicle was never on X. so why it could be counted as it was? it makes no sense.

i do apollo style missions/landings too. it's just a question for which way gettin science you decide.

and see the other parameters: your apollo lander has less weight than a all in one vessel, so cou can add more science parts, to eran points otherwise.

I agree. Maybe require additional "storage" parts to be added to the main return pod to make you have to bring extra room/weight to carry the science points from a separate lander.

i use these: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/54370-Radially-Attached-Experimental-Data-Storage-Container

Edited January 28, 2014 by acc

[KerbMav]

You can only transfer experiments between pods/containers. The OP is right, the "achievement" cannot be transfered.

Looks like something to be integrated into a more refined Kerbal tracking system, in addition to variable skill levels, the "achievement" could be redesigned as "returned a Kerbal from the surface of the Mun", to make the game track the Kerbal and not the pod.

[Umlüx]

why should you get science point for "recovering a ship from Mun's surface" when you never recovered a ship from Mun's surface?

true, its a little bit sad because apollo style means more difficulty, logistics, etc.. but its the realistic way to go.

[acc]

Looks like something to be integrated into a more refined Kerbal tracking system, in addition to variable skill levels, the "achievement" could be redesigned as "returned a Kerbal from the surface of the Mun", to make the game track the Kerbal and not the pod.

i like that idea, but i would not implement it instead of vessel tracking, more as a addition.

[Dirty Bob]

Send a probe first that can land and come back. That way you can justify it as research for your future manned missions and keep in line with your original mission style.

Honestly though, if you choose to RP a certain style you have to kind of accept the fact that you're giving some things up.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Dirty Bob

[RoboRay]

You can only transfer experiments between pods/containers. The OP is right, the "achievement" cannot be transfered.

Looks like something to be integrated into a more refined Kerbal tracking system, in addition to variable skill levels, the "achievement" could be redesigned as "returned a Kerbal from the surface of the Mun", to make the game track the Kerbal and not the pod.

Oh, right... the science reward of bringing the lander back to Kerbin can't be gained without actually bringing the lander back. And that's fine. As somebody else noted, that reflects being able to study the vehicle post-mission and see how it was affected. If you don't bring the lander home, you obviously can't study it.

But, does it work if you bring part of the lander home? Say, have a docking port on top of the lander, with a probe pod then another docking port on top of that. When docking the lander back to the return vehicle, keep the probe pod and bring it home to Kerbin.

[LethalDose]

Send a probe first that can land and come back. That way you can justify it as research for your future manned missions and keep in line with your original mission style.

Honestly though, if you choose to RP a certain style you have to kind of accept the fact that you're giving some things up.

The man speaks the truth.

[Mr. Rogue Ace]

I want to know, do you get both the ships "achievement points", with one that landed and then connected to the return vehicle.

[KerbMav]

But, does it work if you bring part of the lander home? Say, have a docking port on top of the lander, with a probe pod then another docking port on top of that. When docking the lander back to the return vehicle, keep the probe pod and bring it home to Kerbin.

Hmm ... calls for an experiment ... using the probe core as a flight recorder, so to speak ... interesting!

[Tw1]

Hmm ... calls for an experiment ... using the probe core as a flight recorder, so to speak ... interesting!

Last time I was doing things with my persistence file, it seemed to track some parts.

[Dunbaratu]

why should you get science point for "recovering a ship from Mun's surface" when you never recovered a ship from Mun's surface?

That is a false claim. It tracks it based on the command core, not the ship itself. You can leave the majority of the ship behind as long as you take a command core that landed back with you. So the achievement isn't really an accurate measure of what it claims to be anyway.

[Dunbaratu]

But, does it work if you bring part of the lander home? Say, have a docking port on top of the lander, with a probe pod then another docking port on top of that. When docking the lander back to the return vehicle, keep the probe pod and bring it home to Kerbin.

The history of the craft (which things it landed on) is stored in its command cores. If you land a lander with, say, 3 command cores on it, on the mun, all 3 of them get the "this was on the mun" flag recorded into them. As long as any of them make it home, it triggers the achievement.

So to do an Apollo-style experiment and get proper credit for it, what you have to do is put the smallest command core you have on the experiment pod part of the lander, just as a record keeper that stores the fact that the pod was on the mun. Then when you ascend the lander and re-dock it with the command module to go home, make sure it was designed such that the bit with the command core and experiment pod detaches and stays on the command module while the rest of it can be discarded. Bring home just the experiment pod and the dummy command core that's on it.

Ideally, any science instrument in the persistence file should remember that it has been on the Mun. The property 'this has been landed on ......" should attach to the science instrument parts just like it does to the command cores. Story-wise what *should* be giving the extra science points is bringing the experiment back home, not bringing the computer that flew the mission back home. I would like to see that change as a small tweak to future versions of KSP.

[Xavven]

Thanks for your replies, everyone! I do accept that role playing the game a certain way leads to some sub-optimizations as compared to a "min-maxer" style of play, and that's a very valid point. It's not the end of the world -- there are just SO many science points out there that you can unlock the whole tree several times over. I have the tree plus 11,000 science right now and I haven't even touched the Jool system yet, or Eeloo.

I'm just suggesting a gameplay change that makes sense in my mind. Of course you shouldn't get credit for "returning the craft" if the landing part of the craft isn't physically back. But if I brought the probe core from the lander back, does it make sense that that's worth more than bringing a Kerbal back who was physically there? Furthermore, looking past the literal meaning of the science awarded for "returning the craft", my interpretation of it is that it's meant as a reward for landing on a celestial body and getting back (requiring twice the delta-v compared to a one-way trip, minus the aerobraking on Kerbin). Someone used the word "achievement" -- I like thinking of it that way.

[rhoark]

If you land a core on several bodies before coming back to Kerbin, do you get points for recovering a vessel from all of those?