Why aliens would be hidden from the public

[Duxwing]

I thought it was quite obvious. Those things are almost clichés in sociology.

I perhaps by ignorance have never heard a sociologist claim that most people morally behave only because of their religious codes: would you please link me to evidence of this consensus?

-Duxwing

[Savage117]

In my opinion, I don't think us Humans would have any say in the matter. Any species with sufficient tech to travel between the stars will be the ones deciding whether they will be seen by the public or only a small number, or none at all. If humans somehow detected the spacecraft before it entered our system or orbit around one of our planets, our leaders could try to hide it from the public then, I don't know why they would, but they could. But even that decision could be taken from our leaders if the spacecraft decided it wanted to be seen by all, and broadcast a wide band message or was just too big to be ignored or hidden.

In any case if we detected an obvious alien spacecraft entering the Solar system, and our leaders gave just a hint it existed, and then charged a fee to see the broadcast, I would pay what ever amount they decided just to watch it, even if the spacecraft came in, scanned our planet, and then left without so much as a hello, it would still be worth it. Hell I think it would still be worth it if the spacecraft turned out to be hostile.

[dharak1]

I'm not a believer but I pretty much don't steal or lie because of law. You can mark that down as 1/1 on a survey.

[lajoswinkler]

I think there would be less than you imagine. One of the requirements for a long-lived meme is the ability to adapt to or absorb conflicting or contradictory new ideas. All the major world religions have stood the test of time, and proven flexible enough to deal with a lot of change. I think you'd see a range of responses from within each religion, and some sects would experience more anguish than others. But I think over all they'd be affected relatively little. In particular the faith-based religions that don't necessarily have to align with observed reality have a relatively easy mental dodge they can perform when faced with uncomfortable new information.

Perhaps you're right, but this is unlike anything that has ever happened in the history of mankind. The implications are severe. No doubt the Holy See would start their emergency crap generator. They've already tested it. They've said that in the event of intelligent alien life discovery the aliens would be considered the children of god to which the New Testament applies completely, but they didn't mention what does Jesus have to do with them, or what does all that have to do with Genesis. I'm sure they'll think something up, just like they did when other peoples around the planet were asking about all that (Bible, Torah and Quran don't mention anything outside parts of Mediterranean, Middle East and Africa).

It would be funny if the aliens were nonbelievers i.e. rational atheists. I'd expect them to be.

Now imagine if the aliens would say they don't have supernatural beliefs and find our religions to be banal just like we think of cavemen's primitive belief systems.

The world would start crumbling, trust me. It might actually be a good thing.

I perhaps by ignorance have never heard a sociologist claim that most people morally behave only because of their religious codes: would you please link me to evidence of this consensus?

-Duxwing

High school was a long time ago, I really can't remember. Isn't it obvious? Do you talk to people? Talk to them. You might get a nasty surprise if you start poking brains.

It's true that morality evolved on its own, population cohesion and all that stuff, but religion plays a huge role today.

I'm not a believer but I pretty much don't steal or lie because of law. You can mark that down as 1/1 on a survey.

You'd be surprised what kinds of disgusting things people start doing in lawless times, and it's not a few of them. It's whole packs.

If there's an opportunity, many people don't even need a motive. They'll just do it because they can.

Edited January 31, 2014 by lajoswinkler

[magnemoe]

Assume that alien life forms have visited earth, and made themselves known to a select few individuals in certain positions of government. The government has kept the world from knowing that these aliens exist. The aliens apparently trade technological secrets with this government. They have provided land for them to live, land which belongs to the Air Force, and the aliens park their ships here. My question is why this would be kept from us. Why would the government try and keep this knowledge from us? I am looking for legitimate reasons, not a "the government is evil" conspiracy theory or some other such nonsense.

Keep in mind that this is, of course, entirely hypothetical.

I say Hollywood logic, no it hardly make any sense but it is an popular meme and make easy drama.

Yes I can come up with one scenario where it make sense, the alien want to study humans without disturbing that they study. but they also want to access to translators and human experts to explain stuff who is hard for aliens to understand, the agency can provide this and also various stuff they need, if they want plants and animals they would gather it.

Yes its boring stuff and an very high chance the secret will be spilled as the alien contact the wrong people or the government screw up.

[czokletmuss]

Also, how are you so certain that "Abrahamic religions" will take such a pounding?

If we consider Roman Catholic theologians

I think we have another Christianity Is Catholicism trope mutation here

I don't think we would contact any alien life in the next few centuries (unless they are Sufficiently Advanced Aliens and have FTL) and even if so, I would expect them to be alien. Really alien. Like, Starfish Aliens alien; think more of "Solaris" than pathetic Rubber-Forhead Aliens from "Star Trek" or "Star Wars" or other fantasy franchise.

Anyways, Fermi paradox remains a paradox and I doubt any of us can change this. We just don't have enough data and pure speculation leads to nowhere.

Edited January 31, 2014 by czokletmuss

[lajoswinkler]

Well they're the most influential Christian denomination in the world, so...

[NikkyD]

If mankind knew about aliens on the planet, there would be a not-so-small number of ppl who would want them off the planet. Like every extremist group they would try to use force and eventually terrorism.

You cant have a peaceful talk with aliens over the years if a small fraction of your population is actively trying to drive them off the planet.

That all assumes that aliens understand our ways of society at all. If they are like vulcans or klingons they would either think of us as unworthy or see it as a sign of war.

So to keep the odds in check, keep the number of involved ppl small.

[Canopus]

If mankind knew about aliens on the planet, there would be a not-so-small number of ppl who would want them off the planet. Like every extremist group they would try to use force and eventually terrorism.

You cant have a peaceful talk with aliens over the years if a small fraction of your population is actively trying to drive them off the planet.

That all assumes that aliens understand our ways of society at all. If they are like vulcans or klingons they would either think of us as unworthy or see it as a sign of war.

So to keep the odds in check, keep the number of involved ppl small.

There are some extremist groups in all countries that want people not native to their country to be sent back where they came from. Does that mean it happens? No it doesn't because no one cares about them.

Has anyone here thought about the fact that no goverment can keep things secret for very long? It doesn't work simply for the fact that so many people would still be involved and they wouldn't be quiet for ever.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Canopus

[Dunbaratu]

Of course, That Mitchell and Webb look addressed this:

[Kerbart]

Social unrest would be a consideration. We're not talking about "The Jets win the superbowl" or "The pope has an illegitimate child" kind of upheaval, it goes way, way beyond that.

Our own safety could be at stake as well, there might be some religious extremists who see this as "an abomination against god" and will do anything in their power to exterminate them. What do you do when a zoo animal kills visitors? If you're the zoo animal, you'd better keep members of your species in line. Similar considerations might come into play.

Much more interesting would be the motivation of the aliens to keep up with this. Would they have a Star Trek like "Prime Directive" to keep interference with newly discovered sentient life forms to a minimum? The argument "with their technology why would they care?" doesn't always fly. Carl Sagan's theory was that any species that is able to travel between stars has to be inherently peaceful; with an aggressive nature and the technology at hand they would have exterminated themselves way before that. I don't know how right Sagan was on that but I know that he was a lot smarter than most of us here.

[Wahgineer]

I don't understand why everyone is saying religion would crumble. Most would, but not all. If our civilization and the Alien one shared ancient texts (once deciphered), and they were found to have striking similarities, it actually might reinforce religion. Also, who ever said that the THEORY of evolution was a fact? Even Darwin himself said it was just a theory. The Theory of evolution basically says that a pile of silicon will turn into an iPod over time. And before you go and say that it doesn't work because iPods are artificial, think again: the same theory says that simple, inanimate primordial sludge will eventually turn into an animate, intelligent, efficient, and highly complex human. That seems to defy the same logic that supposedly supports it.

[NASAFanboy]

I don't understand why everyone is saying religion would crumble. Most would, but not all. If our civilization and the Alien one shared ancient texts (once deciphered), and they were found to have striking similarities, it actually might reinforce religion. Also, who ever said that the THEORY of evolution was a fact? Even Darwin himself said it was just a theory. The Theory of evolution basically says that a pile of silicon will turn into an iPod over time. And before you go and say that it doesn't work because iPods are artificial, think again: the same theory says that simple, inanimate primordial sludge will eventually turn into an animate, intelligent, efficient, and highly complex human. That seems to defy the same logic that supposedly supports it.

And that's as implausible as saying an invisible sky dude made us all.

It's getting a little close to religon...

Anyways, if this was discovered, conspiracy theorists everywhere will dance with joy.

[Idobox]

A few possible ideas:

-They don't want to interfere, like we're a sort of space reserve or scientific experiment. In this case, why would they contact governments?

-They have a deal with only one government that doesn't want to share. They could accept if that government had something valuable enough to trade.

-They have a deal with our elites that most people would not like. Like trading babies for technology.

-They are blackmailing/threatening/buying the government into submission while they do something evil

-They are doing social engineering, improving us, and believe it works best if they stay hidden.

I also love the idea of AndrewBCrisp that stay hidden not to be noticed by other aliens. They could be refugees, but they could also be doing something illegal or that requires secrecy (ie. business idea that needs to to stay secret until ready, secret military base, etc)

[Kerbart]

I don't understand why everyone is saying religion would crumble. (...).

Your arguments are very reasonable. Problem is, religion isn't. Religion crumbling isn't the biggest problem. Religious leaders not taking very well to said crumbling is. And in some nations religious leadership and political leadership are the same. They might take it upon them to wage war against the godless dogs that harbor those alien abominations. Given that practically any country has nukes these days (not a bad thing by the way, basically the 2nd amendment on a global level, but I digress) that might be cause for some embarrassing developments here and there. The aliens themselves might not react very sportsmanlike either when they find nukes being tossed at them.

Keep the aliens hidden from sight and you can be sure nothing will happen. The choice seems fairly straightforward. Possible chaos, or no chaos? It's a non-zero game with an obvious course of action.

[Wahgineer]

And that's as implausible as saying an invisible sky dude made us all.

When one eliminates all of the impossibilities, then the only one remaining must be true. Evolution says that everything came around by a random chance. Than how is it that humans are such orderly, complex beings? While yes, the primordial sludge we supposedly came from may have the ingredients for life, that's all they are: ingredients. Just because you have all of the ingredients to make a cake doesn't mean that you have a cake. Someone needs to take those ingredients and mix them in the proper way and in the proper amounts to make a cake. And even after you bake the cake, that's all it is: a cake. It doesn't change from chocolate to vanilla, it doesn't increase in size, it doesn't change its glaze covering into frosting, it doesn't become a chocolate chip cookie. It stays the same.

[Dominatus]

I don't understand why everyone is saying religion would crumble. Most would, but not all. If our civilization and the Alien one shared ancient texts (once deciphered), and they were found to have striking similarities, it actually might reinforce religion. Also, who ever said that the THEORY of evolution was a fact? Even Darwin himself said it was just a theory. The Theory of evolution basically says that a pile of silicon will turn into an iPod over time. And before you go and say that it doesn't work because iPods are artificial, think again: the same theory says that simple, inanimate primordial sludge will eventually turn into an animate, intelligent, efficient, and highly complex human. That seems to defy the same logic that supposedly supports it.

Sorry to say it, but your a bit off about evolution, there. It's a scientific theory. Theory doesn't mean hypothesis. A theory is a proven fact on earth. The only thing preventing it from being a universal fact is that there is no evidence of evolution occurring anywhere but on earth.

However, on earth evolution can't really be disputed. Take the Human Genome Project, for example. By analyzing our DNA, and comparing that to other creatures, scientists have been able to create a timeline showing where different species split off from each other. We still have some genetic traits that other creatures share as well- except ours might be "switched off", whereas the animal has it on.

Of course, an actual study might help reinforce the fact. I forget where this happened, exactly, but over the last 30 years a species of bird has been developing shorter wing spans. And this is by a very significant margin, too. These birds best underneath highway overpasses. Trucks, being so tall, were difficult to dodge. As a result, a bit of un-natural selection began. Birds with shorter wingspans were more agile , and so had an easier time dodging these trucks. As the years went by, the wingspan got shorter. And this study was done on the road kill beneath one highway overpass. So, the birds have actually evolved over these past 30 years in order to suit the new environment around them.

Disputing the existence of evolution is ridiculous- it's about the same as disputing the existence of atoms. (Which a girl tried to do freshman year of high school- quite amusing, that)

[Dominatus]

When one eliminates all of the impossibilities, then the only one remaining must be true. Evolution says that everything came around by a random chance. Than how is it that humans are such orderly, complex beings? While yes, the primordial sludge we supposedly came from may have the ingredients for life, that's all they are: ingredients. Just because you have all of the ingredients to make a cake doesn't mean that you have a cake. Someone needs to take those ingredients and mix them in the proper way and in the proper amounts to make a cake. And even after you bake the cake, that's all it is: a cake. It doesn't change from chocolate to vanilla, it doesn't increase in size, it doesn't change its glaze covering into frosting, it doesn't become a chocolate chip cookie. It stays the same.

Again, incorrect. Evolution isn't as random as that. The DNA mutates on cellular reproduction. When these mutations prove beneficial- such as providing a trait that increases a species odds of survival- they are passed on to the creatures offspring, thus giving them the advantage. Similarly, mutations that may get you killed- such as a prey animal with albinism- get bred out, as those carrying the trait don't get around to breeding before they become lunch.

An example of this occurred in the primordial soup, as you called it. Single-celled protozoan's landed on earth in capsules of space dust and water. From there, they started self-replicating, with the occasional mutation. Eventually, the other type of single celled organism (I forget which) evolved. It could not only get energy from the sun, but it could get energy by feeding on the plantlike organisms it had evolved from. A long time after this, the first sea sponge appeared. Then came other creatures, without spines, then with; fish swimming around, mutating legs and the ability to breathe air. Eventually they crawled up on land... At least that's what I learned in biology class. Makes sense, if you ask me... Or other scientists.

As for human diversity.... Climate partially determines that, such as skin pigment, or physical features. Humans also had a role in their own evolution; men and women were attracted to different features, different styles, and so were more likely to couple with a partner matching these. That's probably why humans are the hairless apes- ancient people, like modern people, were attracted to an absence of body hair. Finally, height. A hundred years ago (maybe 2-300?), 5ft 6 was actually considered average height. Napoleon Bonaparte is often made fun of today for his short stature, but in actuality he was about average height for that period in time. The secret to height is nutrition. Because we eat better, humans are able to grow taller. Admittedly this has less to do with evolution and more to do with progress, and societies advancement.

And anyone who knows more about this than I do, please correct me. I had bio last year and am surprised at how much I remembered.

[Seret]

Evolution says that everything came around by a random chance.

No, evolution says the exact opposite: that organisms are constantly trying to become better suited to their environment. The random element is a bit of mixing of genes at each generation, but the point of natural selection is that from that initial random pool, the best genes are selected. There are also other mechanisms involved in evolution that are non-random.

Evolution is no more random chance than the game of monopoly is. Both include a randomiser, but the way the game develops is non-random.

[briansun1]

because they alines asked nicely for them not to tell anyone?

[Canopus]

Hey awsumindyman answer this: do cakes procreate? You better don't say anything more or you will just embarass yourself further.

[TheDarkStar]

Just FYI, there is such a thing as religious people who don't disagree with established scientific fact. Just because some people do does not mean everyone does.

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure this has strayed FAR off-topic.

[Dispatcher]

Have you ever seen the UN ambassador to Kerbin? Hmmm. Maybe there ARE aliens among us.

[TheDataMiner]

(Deleted.)

Edited February 1, 2014 by TheDataMiner

[Jordanpumah]

yeah, I don't see why religions need to be bashed here,

okay, so you're an athiest, good for you, I'm not, I respect your decision, up until the point where you shove that opinion in my face and try to tell me you're right and everyone else is wrong.

maybe God isn't exactly an "invisibly sky creature" that molded us in seven days, but maybe something put each and every variable into place to make sure that earth had been assured to have sentient creatures that would evolve.

and, trying to get back on topic

It's kinda obvious there are aliens, there are signs everywhere, but some cold, hard proof would be nice, as long as they are a peaceful race, hoping Sagan was right.