Discuss: MJ makes KSP more acceptable to Junior player. Hence, create more QUESTIONS.

[Holo]

Also, every single KSP player have used at least one mod at least once, which makes stock purists hypocrites.

If disliking something that you've used once makes you a hypocrite, I don't think there are any non-hyprocrites on Earth. Would you also call a vegetarian a hypocrite if they ate meat at least once in the past?

[AlamoVampire]

I honestly think you should try to get to Duna and back without MJ once. This way you'll actually learn how the game works. MJ is like any computer, it breaks down;and when it does, you will get screwed if you dont have the training/patience/knowledge of moving your spacecraft manually....

Who is this directed at? If me, you have made a bad assumption of my knowledge or skills to date. If it was directed at me, see prior sentence and: I find your assumption very insulting.

[DerekL1963]

MJ is like any computer, it breaks down;and when it does, you will get screwed if you dont have the training/patience/knowledge of moving your spacecraft manually....

I take it you've never actually used MJ then? Because MJ isn't like a computer - it doesn't lock up, it doesn't suddenly power down and can't be powered back up, etc... etc... It does occasionally produce an error, but in all but an infinitesimal number of cases you can recover by selecting a different MJ option with no need to go full manual. In that vanishingly small number of cases where you can't... you're usually in a situation where you can't recover manually in time either.

[Deathsoul097]

I honestly think you should try to get to Duna and back without MJ once. This way you'll actually learn how the game works. MJ is like any computer, it breaks down;and when it does, you will get screwed if you dont have the training/patience/knowledge of moving your spacecraft manually....

HAH! Duna and back without MJ was one of the easiest things I have ever done! (Hell, almost as easy as sending a mission out to minmus and back.) You appear to have no understanding of this at all. Also, MJ is not like any computer. It does not break down ever, unless you were stupid enough not to put on at least a single static solar panel. The main reason I use MJ is because I can't pinpoint land to save my life. (This is usually how it goes when I try to land at a base. Me: Lucky to get 2Km away. MJ: Manages to land ON TOP of the targeted section. Repeatedly.) I can still land easily enough though. I had a lander land and hop around minmus for a day and return to collect several thousand science. MJ may not be as efficient as any decent player, but it is certainly accurate.

[m4rt14n]

I use MJ all the time. I actually like using it. I just think that when starting up it is better to do so without MJ. I have had it fail on me a small amount of time, for making transfers and maneuvers.

Again this is my personal humble opinion. No need to be offended. I am not targetting anybody. Just sharing my personal opinion. I actually installed MJ right after my Duna mission. And never have gone to space without it ever since. Also landing at a specific place is doable without MJ, provided you use F9 a lot to retry. Somethinf I do not care to do also.

Edited February 22, 2014 by m4rt14n

[mikeydz]

There are many reasons why people use mechjeb.

1. Some people like to build and design, not fly. MechJeb helps them focus on building and launching their designs, without having to worry about spending alot of time learning to fly manually.

2. Some people find the lack of information given by stock KSP frustrating when trying to build and or fly, and find the wealth of data MJ provides aids in both building and flying.

3. Some people may have tried to learn to fly in KSP via trial and error frustrating, and learn better when they can watch, in real time, MJ perform maneuvers they aren't capable of doing or doing well. Granted, MJ may not fly the most ideal of efficient maneuvers alot of times, it gets the job done in most cases, which allows the user to learn how to do these things. Once they are capble of emulating MJ, they can gain more experience and perhaps improve to beat MJs performance.

4. Some people like to build wild and crazy designs (perhaps a large station design to be lifted into orbit in a single launch) which may be very difficult to get into orbit manually. MJ might be able to allow them to get it into space.

5. Some people might want to automate many multiples of launches (Ie, many launched to put up a comm system, building a realistic modular station, ect). HTey are fully capable of flying these launches manually, but don't want to have to do the drudge work of 5, 10 or even more near identical launches just to get to the gameplay they are after.

6. And so on, and on and on...

I just don't get why there is a fairly vocal group of users that are against MJ, and even have an elitist attitude toward users that choose to use MJ for any of the wide variety of functions MJ is capable of.

As to the OP, I think MJ is fine to recommend to junior players (whether that means a young (age) player or mature gamers that are brand new to KSP). If it allows them to get past some of the early frustrations that can be found when one first starts playing KSP (and never fear, you can still have epic failures and incredible explosions even with the almighty MJ by your side!), and get into some of the meatier aspects to be found once a player becomes more familiar with the game, it's a success.

[Spica]

Back in 0.16, you could say that I was the epitome of the noob who couldn't do anything without mechjeb. Then, in 0.17 I decided to not use it. It turns out, that by replicating all of what mechjeb did, I had quickly made my first non-autopilot mun landing, and it was easy. From then on, I had used mechjeb less and less. And now, I an somewhat bored of KSP because NOTHING is a challenge for me. Without mechjeb, I would be nowhere near as good as I am now.

[Hodo]

For people who think MJ can land in a set spot all the time, yeah it can in the stock KSP with a basic or even advanced landing pod or probe design, as long as it isn't a space plane or aircraft in an atmosphere. Or using any other mods that make the game a bit more realistic, like FAR and DRE-C. Then MJ goes all crazy and does stupid things that make no sense. I don't hate MJ but I find it to be an overly complex program for what could be a simple information and flight aide.

The other problems with MJ is the amount of memory it uses when in use. Which is something I and many others do not like.

But I digress, this is not about the pros and cons of MJ but about the acceptability of MJ to junior players. For that I say no, half of the fun of the game and the challenge is learning how to operate your monstrosity that you made instead of watching the computer do it for you. As you get more advanced and know how to do things manually adding MJ to your list of plugins is great. But for a junior player it is bad. This is the exact reason why all Astronaughts/kosmonaughts are taught to fly the craft manually before they are taught how to operate the craft through the automated systems.

[Red Iron Crown]

This is the exact reason why all Astronaughts/kosmonaughts are taught to fly the craft manually before they are taught how to operate the craft through the automated systems.

[citation needed]

[DerekL1963]

But I digress, this is not about the pros and cons of MJ but about the acceptability of MJ to junior players. For that I say no, half of the fun of the game and the challenge is learning how to operate your monstrosity that you made instead of watching the computer do it for you.

*sigh* For the thousandth time what is fun for you may or may not be fun for someone else. Please stop presuming to speak for any player that isn't you.

[Hodo]

[citation needed]

Just look up the original 7 NASA Astronauts and the original Cosmonauts all of them were pilots.

That trend continued well into the last STS mission, which was mostly automated but still had a trained pilot with thousands of flight hours under their belt first before they were even considered for the position of pilot for the space shuttle.

[mikeydz]

Just look up the original 7 NASA Astronauts and the original Cosmonauts all of them were pilots.

That trend continued well into the last STS mission, which was mostly automated but still had a trained pilot with thousands of flight hours under their belt first before they were even considered for the position of pilot for the space shuttle.

I've seen this argument used as a reason for new players not to use MJ several times, but there is a big problem with it. Real space programs train their astronauts how to fly spacecraft, but right now training for the players in stock is very limited other than trial and error. Some new users may hit a wall and become frustrated and need additional help in continuing to learn how to improve their skills, or they may quit playing. Some people will choose to use the forums to ask question and read everything they can find. Others will watch youtube videos to learn what they need. And still others will turn to mods like MJ and use them to help to learn what they need.

All these methods to move the KSP experience forward are valid. It's up to the player to decide which method(s) to use, and how much they want to learn the different game play styles KSP has to offer.

[AlamoVampire]

For people who think MJ can land in a set spot all the time, yeah it can in the stock KSP with a basic or even advanced landing pod or probe design, as long as it isn't a space plane or aircraft in an atmosphere. Or using any other mods that make the game a bit more realistic, like FAR and DRE-C. Then MJ goes all crazy and does stupid things that make no sense. I don't hate MJ but I find it to be an overly complex program for what could be a simple information and flight aide.

The other problems with MJ is the amount of memory it uses when in use. Which is something I and many others do not like.

But I digress, this is not about the pros and cons of MJ but about the acceptability of MJ to junior players. For that I say no, half of the fun of the game and the challenge is learning how to operate your monstrosity that you made instead of watching the computer do it for you. As you get more advanced and know how to do things manually adding MJ to your list of plugins is great. But for a junior player it is bad. This is the exact reason why all Astronaughts/kosmonaughts are taught to fly the craft manually before they are taught how to operate the craft through the automated systems.

<sigh>

Hodo, I have to disagree with you on this. I myself, had severe issues with docking. I read all the tutorials I could, watched all the videos that I could, and it was not enough. Sure, I COULD dock... eventually, and be completely out of fuel just as I mate up with the other vessel.

See the thing of it is, some people cannot learn easily by reading how-to or watching how-to vids on the subject, some people just gotta see it happen with stuff they built. I am one such person. I could watch Scott Manley dock day in and day out and STILL NOT learn it. I down loaded mechjeb strapped it to my rocket that I was going to dock with and shot it into orbit chasing down the first vessel. Watching MechJeb do the work for me of setting up the various steps and then executing them with something I built showed me exactly where my faults were and what I was ALSO doing right! Suffice it to say, it taught me how to dock efficiently, to the point where I can do it manually if I desire it. BUT, since rendezvous and docking is such a routine thing for me, I tend to let MJ do the grunt work. Also use it for those long irritating burns that would be easier to do if the computer did it

tl:dr

MechJeb can be and IS a valued teaching tool, and doer of that which is numbingly routine or boring. OH and it provides a wealth of information. Auto-Pilot + vital vessel stats = win in my book

[Red Iron Crown]

Just look up the original 7 NASA Astronauts and the original Cosmonauts all of them were pilots.

That trend continued well into the last STS mission, which was mostly automated but still had a trained pilot with thousands of flight hours under their belt first before they were even considered for the position of pilot for the space shuttle.

That's not the same thing as saying they train on manual systems first, before being taught how the automated systems work. Unless you're talking about the pilots of spacecraft already knowing how to fly, which is a bit silly as no one is going to put an untrained person in the pilot's seat.

Many rocket scientists of the early spaceflight era felt that pilots were unnecessary and, given the number of unmanned or crewed-by-animals missions, it's pretty clear they were right. As I mentioned in an earlier post, every achievement in space save for docking was accomplished by automated systems before they were done by men.

Besides, these days, with fly-by-wire controls, manual control means telling the autopilot what maneuver is desired and the computer makes it happen.

[Queril]

*sigh* For the thousandth time what is fun for you may or may not be fun for someone else. Please stop presuming to speak for any player that isn't you.

I concur.

I have at least 2 friends who stopped playing because they could not do pretty simple thing like a circular orbit or mun landing.

Before MJ, I couldnt really do them either and.. I think I would've abandoned the game if not for MJ.

imo, MJ is really a choice between learning to walk with and without training wheels.

Some will consider it an additional challange, but most (from experience I gathered from various forums and chatrooms) will simply give up.

And those players will have to learn how MJ works too, it's not as easy as it seems for veteran player. It's easier but they still have to learn it.

[736]

Mechjeb is a great tool for "harder" maneuvers like rendezvous and landing without atmosphere, but honestly, it kind of spoils the player a bit, and lots of players can actually do better than mechjeb does. It kind of takes away that I accomplished something hard feeling

Edit: and also the challenge of the game itself

[John FX]

Mechjeb is a great tool for "harder" maneuvers like rendezvous and landing without atmosphere, but honestly, it kind of spoils the player a bit, and lots of players can actually do better than mechjeb does. It kind of takes away that I accomplished something hard feeling

Edit: and also the challenge of the game itself

*sigh* For the thousandth time what is fun for you may or may not be fun for someone else. Please stop presuming to speak for any player that isn't you.

So you never ever had training wheels on your pushbike? Mechjeb is like that for new players.

The equivalent of the attitude some people have on this forum towards mechjeb is like extreme mountainbikers complaining some people have training wheels on their bike or ride on the road.

"Surely the most fun on a pushbike is going down a mountain with a 50/50 chance of survival. If you don`t do that and have training wheels while you learn then that takes away the `I acomplished something hard` feeling. Also the challenge of riding a pushbike."

Some people say the challenge is to to design bikes, some like to ride familiar paths, some like to do extreme mountainbiking.

None are exclusively right and none are wrong.

The problem with Mechjeb discussion on the forum comes when people say "The way I play is the only valid way and the only way that deserves respect" or variations on that theme.

If people say "I don`t use mechjeb because for me (reasons) but I can see the value for some players" then that would not cause issue.

I`m tired of the same Mechjeb discussion. It`s all been said.