The WNTS List

[Captain Sierra]

After reading into the More Efficient Suggestion Process thread, I finally found the motivation to write a thread I've been meaning to for a long time regarding the highly problematic WNTS list. So, this will be a long post and there is no TL;DR about this. If you want to comment with any degree of knowledge on the matter, you'll probably have to suck it up and read this.

Why do we have WNTS?

The answer is to prevent redundancy of suggestions. It doesn't forward the idea pool any to suggest something that has been beaten to death. Without WNTS, we would likely see lots of the same threads offering no new viewpoints and ideas, as well as highly controversial ideas which devolve into arguing and waste moderators' time.

What's wrong with WNTS?

Now we get to the problems. WNTS is inherently flawed for several reasons. First off is the ****-like enforcement of it by many moderators. Now, am I blaming them for WNTS' problems? For the most part, no. Rather, I'm stating that moderators blindly adhering to and enforcing WNTS further dulls the list's effectiveness and, instead of keeping new ideas flowing, simply scares off people rather than allowing them to share their thoughts, even if it's a better take on something which has not been shared before.

A good example of this is N-Body Physics. This is usually talked about in reference to Lagrange Points. Now, I'm sitting on a good idea for how to do that without being computer melting but I have not yet posted it since it would be a waste of my time. I'll bet money, name your price, that it will be locked, optimistically, in a week max, more realistically closer to 48-72 hours. Now, does that further good discussion on things? I certainly don't see how.

How do we fix WNTS?

In my eyes, it's simple. First, the list needs to be updated more.

Updating

Resource mining are currently on the list as not to be in KSP 1.0. Is that correct, almost certainly not. For the longest time Multiplayer was on the list as not to be in KSP 1.0. It was only after the devs realized how much the community really demanded it when KMP came out that they changed their minds. Before then, they would have never known since the WNTS list is enforced harsher than the forum rules in some cases.

Smarter Enforcement

Blindly locking threads with titles from WNTS does not enforce well, it turns the list from a way to guide suggestions into an iron curtain. Again, am I saying this is the moderators' fault, no. WNTS needs to be enforced smartly and the thread needs to make that clear so people aren't scared off. If a suggestion offers and alternative way of doing something which has not been said before, it should be encouraged to keep going, as it is not going around the same path and it encourages new angles on the same subject. Yes, it may create some repetition, but it will allow people to explore more options rather than being stomped on for addressing a WNTS topic.

Better Derail Control

Currently, if a suggestion discussion gets derailed, it's usually locked after 1-2 warnings. That, however, only serves to bury a potentially good suggestion. I would encourage the moderation staff to be a bit more aggressive in stopping derails and resort to thread locking less than they do, and this goes for not just Suggestions forum, but for the majority of the boards, but that is a discussion to be had at a different time and place. I firmly believe that if a thread becomes derailed, especially a suggestion thread, it is more worthwhile to the community as a whole if that discussion can be brought back on track rather than be shut down and, as a result, buried underneath ages of threads.

Distinction between what not to suggest, and what not to discuss

This may seem trivial, but this is an extremely important thing to explain. Just because an item has been suggested to death the same way does not mean you've seen it all in context to that suggestion. Rather, it's a good thing to encourage people to share different ideas on how something could be done, rather than simply saying, 'this has been suggested like this twenty times, so that's all we'll allow.' Again, we come back to my Lagrange points example. My suggestion involves limiting it to a 2-3 body problem where the third body, usually a moon, only comes into play when you get fairly close. I have yet to see any thread suggest using a 2-3 body physics system and that's a good example of a tangential suggestion which should not only be allowed, but encouraged, as it refined ideas to where it is agreeable to most, especially the developers.

Suggestions Tracker

This is to the benefit of everyone, especially the devs. We need a suggestions tracker, even if it's just an actively maintained list stickied here on the forums. In the latter case, I have the time and am willing to volunteer it to create and maintain such a list. The list would include any and all suggestions which have garnered positive discussion and/or are very simple items which are really just things that are no brainers. This would create a place where people could look to find the hot discussions about different ideas and read through the discussions about others, while also giving the devs a quick place to go to find all the good suggestions the forums have offered up and review the relevant discussions without having to go forum wading.

Upvote, Downvote

There needs to be a clear way to approve or disapprove of a suggestion. While there is the 'Rate This Thread' button, that simply shows an average opinion of those that have voted. Even a simple poll would work. Right now, the only good way is to post in the thread, which, if a person has nothing constructive to add to the discussion, yet supports the idea, is a waste of thread space. There should be an easy way to approve or disapprove of a post without cluttering the thread if you do not have any refinements to the idea.

Good Suggestion Guidelines/Template

Lastly, there should be a template/guideline for posting a suggestion, and this should include creating the aforementioned poll. As it is now, there are long, well thought out suggestions, and short, simple, sometimes not thought out suggestions. Creating a simple template which could be used by people would help make suggestions easier to read, more organized, and also help out pretty much everything that has been said above.

So, it's about time somebody took the time to say all this, so let discussion commence. Hopefully, a better forums can come from this.

[sal_vager]

This is on the WNTS list, closing!

Just kidding

Yeah the list definitely needs to be kept more up to date, and your idea of what not to suggest and what not to discuss is a good one, one way this could be handled would be to have a megathread for each frequently suggested topic so posters can be redirected, not closed down.

Things we don't want discussed are things in the rules, not things like suggestions, discussion is healthy.

Derailment control is a two way street, not just in suggestions but everywhere on the forums, we'll do our best to spot trouble but we do need you guys to use that report button when you see things getting out of hand, it helps us and you.

A suggestions tracker kinda exists as the public bug tracker allows for feature requests, but it's a cludge, a cleaner system is required.

Not sure about how we'd introduce a downvote system without it being forum wide and open to abuse, so we may have to stick to polls, though those are often too big and are not really suited to this.

Templates are a good idea, just have to make sure they get used

But yeah, the main point behind the WNTS list was to have a way to stop the endless identical suggestions, especially for things Squad didn't want to add (weapons) or things they didn't think they could do (Multiplayer) or things that just came up over, and over, and over ad infinitum (yeah, you guessed it, L-points).

By the way, if you do post your N-body thread, it'll stay open as long as no one breaks the rules, so don't forget that report button, keep civil and have fun

[jwenting]

most of the "discussions" about things on the list are really "suggestions" in disguise, which should IMO be met with the axe very quickly.

[Nemrav]

Well, however opposite it may be to what I suggested initially in my post, i'm glad its getting some responce...

Yes, as opposed to what I thought up, I totally agree that we should still be able to suggest old ideas so long as it has a new edge to it.. I've been dying to re-suggest the rover assembly area, except with a new twist.

Well, no matter, we all agree that the "what not to suggest list" IS OUTDATED !!!! we need a brand-new system..

wait... I've had another system idea... I'L BE BACK