Attachment problems + Jet Engine problems.

[Vozlov]

Hi Kerbonauts.

So I've got my space station sections sorted and am about to put them into space, to create an orbital refuelling station to get to other planets.

I'm building a shuttle to transfer up fuel and kerbonauts for the space ship I intend to build there, but am running into annoying problems.

First of all, I'm having massive problems trying to get parts to attach properly on my shuttle. I'm creating two jet fuel tanks on either side of the refuel section, but I'll often be trying to attach parts ( onto the green attachment spheres on the parts ) and they just refuse to attach properly, often just trying to attach themselves to the side of the fuselage, not even pointing in the right way. It's simply aggravating having to fanny around with camera angles and tiny mouse changes in order to find the point to attach it, and it'll often not work at all. Are there ways around this?

Secondly. I'm using two rapier jet engines on either side of the refuelling tank, am I right in thinking I'll need more than one air intake to power these fully? I built a prototype with one intake but I simply didn't have the power, and thus the shuttle was completely uncontrollable.

Another point that is annoying me is attaching parts symmetrically etc. Sometimes I'll be attempting to do symmetrical wing attachments and instead of attaching on both sides of the entire rocket/shuttle/etc it'll attach on both sides of the single part on the one side I'm working on, clipping through the rest of the ship. Whilst other times it'll work exactly how intended. I also don't understand why building in the space plane hanger only allows single or double attachments, and not triple/quad etc like in the rocket hanger.

Also, I'm having a problem with the radial attachment structure parts. I'll place a few down the side of a rocket to attach another rocket, or in this case my jet engines, and whilst the initial attachment works, any more attachments further down won't actually attach. Instead I have to use strut connectors.

I don't want to have to install mods to get these basic functions and find out I have to update them all after a main update, and thus find it odd the team are focusing so much on career additions. Why not get the major functions completely sorted ( and parts added that are sorely needed ) now whilst working on career mode in the background, then release career mode in its entirety later on down the road?

I'm not having a rage, I just find some of the building limitations/fiddleyness to REALLY impede in my enjoyment and ability to design what I'm wanting. I know exactly what I want and know that it should work, but sometimes it just takes so long to get something so simple to work as intended.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Vozlov

[LostElement]

I have the same general problem. Just use the developer debug console by pressing F12 and clicking Part Clipping. I generally do this if something stupid isn't attaching. Most common with asparagus staging setups.

[Claw]

Hi Kerbonauts.

So I've got my space station sections sorted and am about to put them into space, to create an orbital refuelling station to get to other planets.

I'm building a shuttle to transfer up fuel and kerbonauts for the space ship I intend to build there, but am running into annoying problems.

First of all, I'm having massive problems trying to get parts to attach properly on my shuttle. I'm creating two jet fuel tanks on either side of the refuel section, but I'll often be trying to attach parts ( onto the green attachment spheres on the parts ) and they just refuse to attach properly, often just trying to attach themselves to the side of the fuselage, not even pointing in the right way. It's simply aggravating having to fanny around with camera angles and tiny mouse changes in order to find the point to attach it, and it'll often not work at all. Are there ways around this?

If you orient the next part in the same direction (using WASD) then angle the camera so you're looking at the side of the fuselage (or whatever part you're attaching to), you can simply aim the mouse behind the attachment point and it'll stick.

Secondly. I'm using two rapier jet engines on either side of the refuelling tank, am I right in thinking I'll need more than one air intake to power these fully? I built a prototype with one intake but I simply didn't have the power, and thus the shuttle was completely uncontrollable.

Yep. Usually around 3 intakes works well, but it kinda depends on what you're doing. Some people will suggest up to 10 or so.

Another point that is annoying me is attaching parts symmetrically etc. Sometimes I'll be attempting to do symmetrical wing attachments and instead of attaching on both sides of the entire rocket/shuttle/etc it'll attach on both sides of the single part on the one side I'm working on, clipping through the rest of the ship. Whilst other times it'll work exactly how intended. I also don't understand why building in the space plane hanger only allows single or double attachments, and not triple/quad etc like in the rocket hanger.

SPH is designed that way. Most airplanes are 2x symmetrical so that's what the SPH is based off of. If you would like more than that, you'll have to stick with vertical construction in the VAB (for stock anyway). Not sure if there's a mod for this.

Also, I'm having a problem with the radial attachment structure parts. I'll place a few down the side of a rocket to attach another rocket, or in this case my jet engines, and whilst the initial attachment works, any more attachments further down won't actually attach. Instead I have to use strut connectors.

Same thing as I mentioned in the first part. Orient the next part to align, then aim aft of your first part. Aim the mouse so it isn't on another fuselage part. Unless you're trying to attach engines at the back end of another engine...

I don't want to have to install mods to get these basic functions and find out I have to update them all after a main update, and thus find it odd the team are focusing so much on career additions. Why not get the major functions completely sorted ( and parts added that are sorely needed ) now whilst working on career mode in the background, then release career mode in its entirety later on down the road?

I'm not having a rage, I just find some of the building limitations/fiddleyness to REALLY impede in my enjoyment and ability to design what I'm wanting. I know exactly what I want and know that it should work, but sometimes it just takes so long to get something so simple to work as intended.

I think all of your comments are surmountable. If I missed your point, perhaps post a picture of what you're trying to do. That might make it easier for us to help out.

Good luck!

[Claw]

I have the same general problem. Just use the developer debug console by pressing F12 and clicking Part Clipping. I generally do this if something stupid isn't attaching. Most common with asparagus staging setups.

If you use Alt-F12 part clipping, beware that you can end up with unstable designs and exploding ships if not done carefully.

[merendel]

For your attachment point problem monkeying with the camera is the only good solution I've come up with. Its mostly a problem with parts that can be attached both radialy and stacked. I normaly have the best luck with positioning my camera at a right angle to the point I want to attach to and move the part closer till it snaps over to the node. If your mouse pointer gets over a valid radial attachment spot it will try to attach radialy but from a right angle you can hit the node attach before radial becomes valid.

You prety much need a minimum of 1 intake per engine. The more intakes you have per engine the higher you can go while runing on air breathing mode. If useing more than a single engine keep an eye on your air intake and switch over to rocket mode before it runs out completely. jets will flame out when out of fuel and normaly 1 will go before the other causeing a bad spin.

SPH has different symmetry than the VAB. It assumes you are trying to make a spaceplane so its rules are optimized for that. It would be very hard to attach wing structures in any configuration other than strait out the centerline of the craft with the VAB's symmetry. As for the editor trying to apply symmetry onto a part instead of on both sides of the craft hit X agian to fix it. When trying to attach a part symetricly to a part that was already applied with symmetry there are 2 modes, mirrored on the other side and symmetry on that individual part. you can toggle between the mods with the symmetry key. If you really find a need to have a symmetry other than 2 on a spaceplane build the part in the VAB and save it as a sub assembly then return to the SPH.

For your last issue haveing to do with radial attachment structure parts. Is what your trying to do something like sticking 2 or more hardpoints down the side of your rocket and then straping something like a long tank to the side ancored by all the hardpoints at once? If so sadly that does not work due to the root/tree structure of how craft are handled in KSP. It considers the new part you add a child part of the one you directly attached to. Other parts, even if they appear they should be attached are not considered ancored to the child part. Sadly asthetics are the only use for doing that although you can play games with struting the tank to the additional hardpoints.

[Vozlov]

Cheers for the replies people. I'll try getting back into it. It's annoying because I was on an absolute ROLL for a while, getting my heavy lifters and space station sections sorted. Then I got to the shuttle and BOOM an absolute halt in progress.

Same thing as I mentioned in the first part. Orient the next part to align, then aim aft of your first part. Aim the mouse so it isn't on another fuselage part. Unless you're trying to attach engines at the back end of another engine...

As the name suggests this was an earlier prototype but the problem is still here. See the radial attachments between the giant orange tanks and the outer jet rockets? Only the top pair are actually attached to the outer jet rockets, hence the connecting struts. Am I doing something wrong in attaching order here?

To test manoeuvrability I used the orange tanks fuel and added a rocket to get it high enough, it was really good to control. When I ran out of fuel I used the jet engines to see if I could still control the thing and land it. I just didn't have enough power and it went into the most horrific spin in every direction I've ever had, it was quite awesome. Thus I'm redesigning the jet engines to have three intakes, which has caused all of the other problems.

The final won't actually have a rocket engine, as the orange tanks are used for refuelling interplanetary craft, and thus would be empty on re-orbit. I use a heavy lifter for getting it to the orbiting station.

I realise there is literally no point in having a reusable refuelling shuttle in this game, but damn it I WANT ONE! It all fits into my grand design.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Vozlov

[Vanamonde]

Only the top pair are actually attached to the outer jet rockets

That's simply how the game works. One parent part can have many children, but each child part can only have one parent. In other words, you can have branchings, but you can't ever bring the branches back together again as fully-connected closed loops. The only exception is the stretchable EAS-4 struts, but even they can only be stretched between two parts which already trace a path back to the same root part. Edited March 11, 2014 by Vanamonde

[Vozlov]

I see. Never mind about that then!

Cheers for the help people. Questions answered!

[Claw]

Cheers for the replies people. I'll try getting back into it. It's annoying because I was on an absolute ROLL for a while, getting my heavy lifters and space station sections sorted. Then I got to the shuttle and BOOM an absolute halt in progress.

Yeah, space planes require a little bit different care. Once I got used to them, I came to love building planes more than rockets. Glad to see Vanamonde was able to clear up KSP part attachment for you.

To test manoeuvrability I used the orange tanks fuel and added a rocket to get it high enough, it was really good to control. When I ran out of fuel I used the jet engines to see if I could still control the thing and land it. I just didn't have enough power and it went into the most horrific spin in every direction I've ever had, it was quite awesome. Thus I'm redesigning the jet engines to have three intakes, which has caused all of the other problems.

Space planes/airplanes/shuttles are a bit more finicky about CoL, CoT, and CoM placement. Make sure you're checking the CoM in relation to the CoL not just when fully refueled, but for the fuel load at any atmospheric phase of flight. Usually what bites people is after they've transferred all the payload fuel to a space station, then deorbit and go out of control because the CoM has moved behind the CoL.

I realise there is literally no point in having a reusable refuelling shuttle in this game, but damn it I WANT ONE! It all fits into my grand design.

Nothing wrong with this. There's really no point in having any particular craft type. Each is custom made to fit into your vision of the game, which is why KSP is so awesome.

Making a glider got me nothing in this game, but it sure was fun.

Good luck!

[celem]

Glad you got your problems sorted out. There are a couple of things you mentioned with the SPH woes that have limited workarounds you might be interested in. Bit of a wall since the SPH handles symmetry differently, but I wanted to be clear, maybe I should make a guide at some point. Hope its useful to someone with similar troubles.

Symmetry in the SPH, and Symmetry on symmetry (nested symmetry)

First, and most obvious, the SPH works up to 2x symmetry and no higher. If you need something like a 4x spacing you could fake it with two 2x placements, but with no vertical snap this is only as balanced as your eye/mouse-hand. If you need true 3x (or more) symmetry in the SPH you must create that piece in the VAB and move it over as a sub-assembly. (you can also physically move .craft files from the VAB to SPH folders in your filesystem to open them in the other hanger/choose your launch point)

Secondly the SPH handles symmetry differently to the VAB, symmetry in SPH is rather like a mirror dropped verticaly along the longitudinal axis of the part, you get only left-right symmetry. In the VAB it acts more like a rod than a surface plane and gives you full circular symmetry around the vertical axis. These inbuilt variations make the VAB infinitely more suited to a vertical lifting rocket and vehicles that operate in vacuum as getting the CoM over CoT is easy here. The SPH is tailored to vehicles operating horizontaly under gravity, planes and rovers.

So with the obvious bits out of the way, heres where complex designs get tricky:

Lets say you are building your plane, you slap down a fuselage, then put some wing mounts on, but they are tricky and you end up applying them in 1x symmetry manually. If you then try to attach a wing to those wing roots and use 2x symmetry you will see the wings mounting on either side of a single wingroot, with one of them clipping through the rest of the plane. Its 2x symmetry is relative to its parent, if its parent was 2x too then it would inherit all the way back to the fuselage and plot symmetry around that, but the roots werent so it didnt. You see this also when trying to use girders to construct complex rover wheel-bases consisting of many wheels, trying to get symmetry to put them where you think they should go becomes a nightmare, the front left wheel doesnt pair with front-right, its back-right and that rear wheel comes out inverted. So how do we get round this nightmare?

When building symmetry in the SPH build 1 side only, use no symmetry tool, this goes for wings, rover wheelbases, anything where the part you are placing is just part of a further construction. With 1x on all these parts then where you do want symmetry it will correctly calculate for this side and pick the right part to reflect around. Keep going to the wingtip or last wheel, until its just how you want it. Then activate 2x symmetry and pick up that root part way back on the fuselage/body and let the game clone the other-side.

True SPH symmetry.

The same techniques make nesting symmetry in the VAB simple too. Its how you get say, 4 symmetrical radial engines around each of 4 symmetrical asparagus tanks. Build the asparagus in 1x, get its engines done, then clone that up.

edit: it also occurs to mention upon a quick re-read that symmetry can calculate and plot differently in both hangers depending on whether the piece is standing vertically or horizontaly. Occasionaly to get the effect you want you need to snap off the parent piece and place it somewhere in the other orientation before applying it's radial pieces, move it back once its ready.

Edited March 11, 2014 by celem
tweak/sp

[Vozlov]

Interesting. Food for thought. I'm chugging along quite happily now, figuring out these damn shuttles one failed launch at a time. I'm starting to enjoy my failures again, which is great. Nothing quite like watching something you've spent so long designing start falling out of the sky like a stone in the most horrific way imaginable. It kinda gives you a renewed respect for the power of gravity and such.

Cheers for the information fellow Kerbonoughts!