Lecturing 2 3rd grade classes on "Earth's Place in the Solar System", BUT...

[Whirligig Girl]

...The Problem is the curriculum talks about The Goldilocks's Zone, which is something that doesn't really exist. Earth could support liquid water at Mars, or at Venus, so the inside of the zone is rigged, and furthermore, liquid water exists underneath Europa, and Enceladus.

Of course, I start out just making sure they actually know and understand the solar system, and lecture them about that, but what do I do when I reach The Earth's Place in The Solar System, I know they're just 8 years old but that doesn't mean they deserve to be taught outdated information! If I directly go against the lesson, the teacher (general subject teacher by the way, by no means a space expert) will think I'm crazy and tell her students I was lying, and again, I can't have them learn this.

Help me bend the rules a bit here!

[SargeRho]

Explain that the goldilocks zone doesn't just cover Earth, but also Venus and Mars?

[Skyler4856]

I would also explain other factor that allow for the presence of liquid water (tidal heating, radioactive core similar to an RTG etc)

[Whirligig Girl]

If you moved Earth to Venus, Liquid Water would still exist on the surface, same with Mars's orbit. This means that the definition of the Goldilocks zone depends on the characteristics of the planet itself. If you moved Venus out to Mars, it might even be able to support liquid water in some places. The goldilocks zone has nothing to do with the star, but the characteristics of the planet itself.

[Whirligig Girl]

I would also explain other factor that allow for the presence of liquid water (tidal heating, radioactive core similar to an RTG etc)

So you suggest I do tell them that the goldilocks zone isn't real, but instead tell them the other factors that lead to Liquid Water?

[Albert VDS]

But it does exist and yes this zone includes Venus and Mars' orbits. Any planet or moon, with enough atmospheric pressure, in this zone can have liquid water on it's surface.

The GZ is all about having liquid water on the surface.

Europa and Enceladus fall in an other category of liquid water. They have liquid water because of gravitational forces and not heat from sunlight.

What you could do is explain that we first thought that liquid water would only be possible in the GZ. Then define that zone.

After that you could explain that there are other ways of having liquid water on a planet/moon.

If you moved Earth to Venus, Liquid Water would still exist on the surface, same with Mars's orbit. This means that the definition of the Goldilocks zone depends on the characteristics of the planet itself. If you moved Venus out to Mars, it might even be able to support liquid water in some places. The goldilocks zone has nothing to do with the star, but the characteristics of the planet itself.

It's still a zone. Earth would be an ice cube if it had the orbit of Jupiter. The zone tells you the place where there is enough energy(from a star) for a planet, with a thick enough atmosphere, to have liquid water instead of ice on it's surface.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Albert VDS

[Whirligig Girl]

Okay, so there is some truth to the GZ.

[Camacha]

The Goldilock's zone does exist, I am just not sure you are explaining it right. It is the zone, any zone, where conditions are just right for liquid water to exist on the surface of a planet. Note the term zone instead of orbit. Your remarks are exactly right - in our solar system that zone spans from about the orbit of Venus to probably slighty beyond the orbit of Mars. Also note that the zone has not directly to do with the planets inhabiting it, it is just the band of distances where these conditions could occur. Some stars will have empty habitable/Goldilock's zone(s), some will have highly elliptic planets that plunge in and out of it and some will have multiple planets in the zone.

Whether or not the water on Europa is part of a habitable zone is up for some discussion (primarily concerning the need for water on the surface). That there might well be other sources of liquid water does not mean that the habitable zone is a myth. What makes you think that?

[Skyrunner27]

Are you also going to teach them that the asteroid belt is sparse and that Near Earth Asteroids don't come from there. Also make sure to include Ceres, Pluto, and Eris, and maybe Sedna.

[Skyler4856]

So you suggest I do tell them that the goldilocks zone isn't real, but instead tell them the other factors that lead to Liquid Water?

No, I was adding on to the previous post

[Roastduck]

Disclaimer: The following post is based on my experience as an education major and the son of a second grade teacher

Of course, I start out just making sure they actually know and understand the solar system, and lecture them about that

Good start. Make sure you have lots of pictures, models, and short videos to show them

but what do I do when I reach The Earth's Place in The Solar System, I know they're just 8 years old but that doesn't mean they deserve to be taught outdated information!

There's a difference between "outdated" and "simplified." Kids' brains don't function like adult brains. They process information differently, and actually can't process some kinds of information. (for example, the majority of 2nd and 3rd grade students simply cannot grasp the concept of fractions or numbers less than zero.)

If I directly go against the lesson, the teacher (general subject teacher by the way, by no means a space expert) will think I'm crazy and tell her students I was lying, and again, I can't have them learn this.

Help me bend the rules a bit here!

A couple of things about this:

1) teachers know that the information they teach isn't always the 100% truth, ESPECIALLY elementary/primary teachers. There are benchmarks put in place that are based on research into child psychology and cognition. Only last year, the same kids you'll be addressing were still using blocks or popsicle sticks to help them subtract two-digit numbers. Any "current" information will not get you branded as crazy by a teacher. Teachers love learning stuff, nor will she tell her students that you're lying.

2) Under no circumstances should you say that anything she has taught them is wrong.

I'll say that again:

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you say anything she has taught them is wrong. (unless she misspeaks or something). Rather, suggest that what she has taught them already is merely a building block that is part of much more advanced science (which it is).

Teachers depend on the fact that their students trust the information being given to them. If you put any doubt in their minds by implying that their teacher doesn't know what she's talking about, it could potentially lead to a loss of this trust, and the students won't progress at the pace they should.

[Tex]

Please remember that the Goldilocks Zone is only an estimation. A rough figure. Of course it is the most likely place for liquid water and the like, but also remember that a planet's position in orbit doesn't always indicate it's features. Yes, there is almost certainly liquid water under Europa, but that is a special circumstance, is it nor? It can also mean the converse is true for planets in the Goldilocks zone. You could have an inhospitable magma planet right smack-dab in the zone, so be sure to cover that it is just a guesstimate.

[Rakaydos]

Earth is in the middle of the sun's Goldilocks zone. But the goldilox zone doesnt mean everything. Venus is the same size and is in the same zone, but has boiling acid clouds instead of water, and is much hotter. Mars is in the zone as well, but is too small- the air is all thin like the top of mount everest, where the snow never melts even in the summer, even near the equator.

We think Europa, one of the moons of Jupiter may be in Jupiter's Goldilox zone, too! Just barely, though... the surface is all ice. But there might be water under the ice.

[jwenting]

Europa, even if there's liquid water, is a rather hostile place. Cold, dark, high radiation environment. Only possible water existing underground, kept liquid by constant tidal pressure squeezing it so much its temperature rises to above freezing in places.

The "goldilocks zone" pertains to the ability to sustain human life without artificial means. That's not possible on Europa. It's also not possible on Mars or Venus, though some people theorise it might have been possible in the distant past.

[CaptainKipard]

I'm surprised you're teaching 8-year-olds this kind of cosmology. What country are you in? Is it a public school? Secular or religious?

[DonLorenzo]

Make it simpler. Tell them liquid water is important for life (they're mostly water themselves!) and that as you go farther from the sun, it gets so cold it freezes and can no longer be liquid. Go too close and it boils away and isn't a liquid anymore. Explain that Earth is just the right distance away so the temperature is always nice.

In case there's questions you can explain a little bit more, that there are also other ways to have liquid water and that it's not really the planet that's just right for US, but that we're just right for the planet since we evolved on it. I'd say leave out tidal heating, subsurface oceans and RTGs. They're 8 years old; go with 'not all planets are equally close to the sun, and that does matter!'.

You might cover that the Earth is actually always pretty much the same distance away from the sun as well, I bet some of them will think that come winter we're farther away etc. IMO those are useful things to teach kids about. IF they all yawn and know all those things (awesome kids!) go on about jovian moons and so forth

Edited March 12, 2014 by DonLorenzo

[Whirligig Girl]

I'm surprised you're teaching 8-year-olds this kind of cosmology. What country are you in? Is it a public school? Secular or religious?

Public North Carolina US school. Problem is that it's North Carolina.

[Whirligig Girl]

Make it simpler. Tell them liquid water is important for life (they're mostly water themselves!) and that as you go farther from the sun, it gets so cold it freezes and can no longer be liquid. Go too close and it boils away and isn't a liquid anymore. Explain that Earth is just the right distance away so the temperature is always nice.

In case there's questions you can explain a little bit more, that there are also other ways to have liquid water and that it's not really the planet that's just right for US, but that we're just right for the planet since we evolved on it. I'd say leave out tidal heating, subsurface oceans and RTGs. They're 8 years old; go with 'not all planets are equally close to the sun, and that does matter!'.

You might cover that the Earth is actually always pretty much the same distance away from the sun as well, I bet some of them will think that come winter we're farther away etc. IMO those are useful things to teach kids about. IF they all yawn and know all those things (awesome kids!) go on about jovian moons and so forth

Brings me to an interesting point. What if they yawn, not because they know this, but instead because the information is just boring. I try to be enthusiastic and a bit funny, but it doesn't always work. How do I (or more importantly, the information) stay interesting?

[Camacha]

Brings me to an interesting point. What if they yawn, not because they know this, but instead because the information is just boring. I try to be enthusiastic and a bit funny, but it doesn't always work. How do I (or more importantly, the information) stay interesting?

The cosmos is an amazing, mysterious place, even for the full grown mind of a rational adult. If I think back how I was at that age, I loved anything odd, big, strange or weird. I think that I would try to impress them with the notion that we live in a vast galaxy and even bigger universe, filled with worlds that are stranger than science fiction can imagine. Maybe even just the scale of the solar system is enough, as their minds have to get used to the magnitudes involved. Even if they do not pick up on all the facts, that primes them for the future and has them understand there is a lot more going on outside our little blue ball. I consider the latter a lot more important than the ability to reproduce facts.

Childeren will probably poke holes in hollow party tricks, but a good adventure never goes out of style. Some might not care of course, but that is the same as with adults. I would not let that discourage you.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Camacha

[Wahgineer]

If the Goldilocks zone is as non-existent as you say it is, then how come Venus and Mars are so inhospitable to life? How come they don't look like the Earth? The Goldilocks zone refers to an area around a star where the conditions that would allow life to form are just right: not too hot, not too cold, not too much light, not too little light. The Earth sits in the middle of this zone, and has life. Yet every other planet, whether it is Mars or Venus, is inhospitable: too cold for ice to melt, too hot for water to stay liquid.

[SargeRho]

Not quite correct. Mars' atmosphere is too thin to allow liquid water to exist for long periods of time, its core has cooled to a point where no significant magnetic field is generated, and its atmosphere is been stripped away by the solar wind and large impact events.

Venus was likely hit by a very large impactor, that killed it, and reversed its rotation, as Venus actually spins backwards.

Earth in turn was lucky, when Theia impacted Earth, it didn't kill its rotation, and ended up giving it a large moon that stabilizes its rotation. If Mars was of similar mass and size as Earth, it'd probably still be rather livable nowadays.

[Whirligig Girl]

If the Goldilocks zone is as non-existent as you say it is, then how come Venus and Mars are so inhospitable to life? How come they don't look like the Earth? The Goldilocks zone refers to an area around a star where the conditions that would allow life to form are just right: not too hot, not too cold, not too much light, not too little light. The Earth sits in the middle of this zone, and has life. Yet every other planet, whether it is Mars or Venus, is inhospitable: too cold for ice to melt, too hot for water to stay liquid.

Did you even read the whole OP? If Earth was moved toward the orbit of Venus it could sustain liquid water, and it could if it was moved out to Mars' orbit. The Goldilocks' Zone does actually exist, but not in the simple, and outdated way 3rd graders learn it. Earth's luck in it's habitability comes from the circumstances of it's formation, not so much its orbital position.

[Brotoro]

Did you even read the whole OP? If Earth was moved toward the orbit of Venus it could sustain liquid water, and it could if it was moved out to Mars' orbit. The Goldilocks' Zone does actually exist, but not in the simple, and outdated way 3rd graders learn it. Earth's luck in it's habitability comes from the circumstances of it's formation, not so much its orbital position.

Where do you get this from? Even at its current position, Earth has experienced times when its oceans have almost completely frozen over. I see no reason to expect that Earth would maintain any open surface water if it were located at the distance of Mars. I also would expect Earth's atmosphere/hydrosphere to have evolved differently if it were closer to the Sun where Venus is located. The higher temperatures there would have kept the water vapor in the atmosphere (instead of almost all of it condensing out into the oceans) where photodissociation would have split it into hydrogen (which escapes) and oxygen (which reacts with surface materials). There is certainly a distance from the Sun where the Earth would have been too hot for our liquid water oceans to form, and there is certainly a distance from the Sun where Earth would be completely frozen over. There will be similar boundary distances for planets with other masses or compositions (but those distances may not be exactly the same as for Earth), so the boundaries of the Goldilocks zone are fuzzy because of this. But the concept of the zone is valid.

[Skyler4856]

Public North Carolina US school. Problem is that it's North Carolina.

Looks like you're in the wrong part of NC

[Albert VDS]

If the Goldilocks zone is as non-existent as you say it is, then how come Venus and Mars are so inhospitable to life? How come they don't look like the Earth? The Goldilocks zone refers to an area around a star where the conditions that would allow life to form are just right: not too hot, not too cold, not too much light, not too little light. The Earth sits in the middle of this zone, and has life. Yet every other planet, whether it is Mars or Venus, is inhospitable: too cold for ice to melt, too hot for water to stay liquid.

Mars and Venus are in this zone too. Venus is too hot because it has a very very thick atmosphere(92 times thicker than Earth's) and a long day(224,65 Earth days). Mars is cold because it has a very thin atmosphere, 1% of Earth atmosphere, so it isn't able to trap enough heat.

Both planets would have liquid water on their surfaces if they had the same atmospheric density.